Where have all the possibilities gone??

"The valley spirit never dies."

The valley spirit and the earth spirit are one in the same.

It is called "the mysterious female."

Mother Earth

The opening of the mysterious female
Is called "the root of Heaven and Earth."
Continuous, seeming to remain.

The best analogy to this would be Eden but that does not mean it translates exactly. Though an interpretation of the life of Jesus does site, that by his acts the Angel who guarded Eden ceased to do so. The best way I can describe it is in relation to an understanding of the present as the surface of the Universe. A surface that is no different than the surface of the earth from a point of view.

Use it without exertion.

This means that the usual methodologies such as focussed thought and meditation will not help. Unless it�s so well ingrained in your psyche you can generate alter states of awareness, without really thinking about it. As in the same sense of for instance breathing, or responding to a loud sound outside your vision.

That is a big assumption... I rather think of it as God making Heaven and Earth from Himself (the everythingness/Tao) and their relationship is therefore "God."

Its not so much an assumption but rather a conclusion based on what can be observed. Buddhism like other systems of belief have creation stories. Which as in Christianity (for instance) present an order (1st, 2nd, and 3rd, 4th) in which God created things. In this respect the implication is that the chain was never broken. That when God created heaven and earth he created heaven and in heaven he created earth.

As far as God creating things for him, one impression is that the scenario or cause is that the relationship is symbiotic. Alternatively if that were not in fact necessary at this point in history, then we could conclude that God created a process which resulted in the earth.

Where's my ammo? Does this game have Godmode? How about cheats? What are the rules? Can I be like Neo in the Matrix? ... that's enough questions for you to ponder. Let me know if you have any answers.

The war is fought with Karma in mind in the sense of a person acting and reacting so as to create conditions. Which favor his or her responses, reactions and decisions to generate positive Karma for themselves. One does this by adhering to the law of the wheel which to sum up is that Gods creation has a purpose. That purpose is based on Gods intent, an analogy is that everything that happens in the Universe can be likened to a wheel, which is traveling in a certain direction. That direction has been set by God trying to change the direction of the wheel results in bad Karma. This is merely the way I was taught in relation to the dogma inherent in this system of belief.

Nah Maybe it goes along the lines of ultimate freedom. It does beg one question, though... "Why aren't we born with the knowledge of our purpose (of this reincarnation)." I think it is a valid question that probably needs answering

A response is that the spirit knows but the mind incapable of comprehending due to the issue of the purpose being related to an event in the future. The issue is more in relation to a decision your purpose is to make a choice. If I tell you that on December 21 of the year 2020 you 12 year old son will die in a car accident. In order for that not to happen you have to call in sick to work, despite the fact you are not. Your purpose in this lifetime is to avoid this event (death of your son) as it will result is something favorable to Gods intent. I will bet you will have about a thousand questions. If you were born with this knowledge what exactly would your life is like. An example being if I wake up tomorrow at 6:05am instead of 6:02 its possible that I will change my destiny because I always set my alarm for 6:02. When if you had set your alarm for 6:05 you would have met for the first time the woman you would marry, which would have the child whose life you were suppose to save.

A destiny is an event, which occurs in space and time the variables are complex as a result the information, which goes into what, is supposed to happen is immense. Foreknowledge is often not the remedy; rather it is that you lead your life as free to choose
your own path.

Nope, I disagree. I think they've got it all wrong. Their telescopes aren't good enough.. and apparently their brains aren't either.

LOL there is a book called the Tao of Physics by Fritsov Capra might I suggest you read it. I presents the argument that the data (mathematical and otherwise) parallels which the ancients concluded was reality.

Think on that one for a minute.

I have often considered that the Universe as we understand it is a mitochondria the activity which is its function, the result of the internal workings of its structure.

If God has His own will and can exercise it, then why doesn't He exercise it in order to rid the world of evil? Seriously? Why would someone will literally Godly powers not prevent sin from happening, or wipe out the evil altogether? Why let it go on? Who benefits? The only one who seems to benefit is God.

Freedom of choice is often described as the best reason why evil exists. If such freedom did not exist we would be no better than automatons. With regard to issues related to for instance a Devil, Buddhist and many other cultures believe more in evil spirits. People who's basic nature is to do wrong, they exist because of free will. When studying such cultures you do find that as in for instance Buddhism, Priest are trained as warriors. The issue being they are trained to fight whom with the answer being they are so prepared to deal with evil. In response then God creates an existence, in which free will is inherent, as a reuslt there is evil in the form of people and or sprits. God provides a means of defense for the Good to be applied to deal with the evil. A parallel in relation to this with regards to the Western culture was in the Judaic faith but it�s apparent that this type of training had ceased to exist by the time Jesus was supposed to have lived.

Human beings have inherent capacities to do harm their function and real purpose is to make possible survival under the worst of conditions. What is often defined as evil is the abuse of these inherent capacities. Ridding reality of evil would be akin to declawing a cat the problems of survival would still exist but we would have no way of surviving.

Finally and beyond this is a request to define what for you is evil? While your considering that take a look at this link.

God, the Devil and the Tao

[Edited on 13-2-2003 by Toltec]

You don't need to post the entire post, then break in. It is unneccesary, and only lengthens your posts. 2-3 quotes for a post are enough, but practically the entire post is extreme. Create your own arguments, please. This is a request I would like to see respected. I have nothing against you, just please don't quote entire posts and interject your thoughts.

Take Back ATS,

regs out...

That is the point of this discussion... to take apart the quotes and interject your own thoughts. We are discussion a religious/spiritual document, the "Tao Te Ching," and we need to do direct quotes and comparisons in order to both better understand it and inject our personal thoughts about the individual pieces.

Out of kindness, we have decided to keep the entire discussion on this one topic that has been around for some time now. I find this entire discussion to be benefitial spiritually as well as bringing up specific points of interest involving conspiracies in religion and hidden messages within ancient texts. Please allow us to continue in this fashion.

I'll go over the contents of the link that I found interesting to start:

"Pain and suffering become the lessons that move us closer to God and, even though we may not understand why, it is not our place to question God's methods. It is just as Jesus told the Devil when provoked to prove that God existed, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test" (Luke 4:12)."

I'm sure you know what I'm about to say. Why not put God to the test? My only defense for God is that his proofs might already be out there; they are just hard to recognize. This also brings up a question for me about theists who believe Jesus is God... but Jesus is clearly saying that God is a separate entity to need proof for/against. I think it would be more funny if Jesus' actual response was, "I'm Taoist," in which the answer speaks for itself. ....... As a second note, I would not agree that pain and suffering are a proving ground, nor a positive way to get closer to God. ... what a dreadful thought.

"As Lao-Tzu wrote in the Tao Te Ching:
As it acts in the world, the Tao is like the body of a bow. The top is bent downward; the bottom is bent up. It adjusts excess and deficiency so that there is perfect balance. (Ch. 77)"

This is a very interesting quote. When I read it, I not only agreed, and thought of magnetism (being a physics student), but also thought of the martial arts and psionic abilities. In martial arts we study the balance of the body. In psionics, they study moving objects with the mind. How can you move an object if you are only after an action? You must also plan its reaction before nature would allow you to "bend the spoon." Perhaps that sounds idiotic or out of place, but I find it to be most interesting that we rarely think of "bending" the laws of nature USING THE LAWS OF NATURE.

I'll try to remember this concept and speak on it more later after it has sunk in further... and when we get to it in our discussion.

"However, Taoist thought is based on the realization that reality is complementary, and nature is inherently cooperative, not competitive."

I wonder how complementary life truly is. I see competition non-stop. In fact, I have experience competition non-stop. It is hard for me to derive cooperation out of some of those experiences. This would make me believe that evil is "cooperation gone wrong."

Now to your note:

"The valley spirit and the earth spirit are one in the same. .... Mother Earth"

Original quote:
"The valley spirit never dies.
It is called "the mysterious female."
The opening of the mysterious female
Is called "the root of Heaven and Earth."
Continuous, seeming to remain.

Use it without exertion."

So Earth never dies. We call her Mother Earth. But what is this "opening?" I know the concept of "rooting" in Tai Chi, I know roots on a tree, but I'm not sure if I know of roots for Mother Earth. I did not follow your "Eden" comment.

I would contend at this point that the "mysterious female" is God. God being the "root" of Heaven and Earth. God being the being that gave birth to Heaven and Earth (mother). Also, God expanding Her being into the creation we see today would make Her the "roots" that lie underneath all of creation (similar to string theory). Wow, I'm good. The "continuous" comment would be the fact that all things are composed of God and that fact never changes. The "exertion" comment seems to go back to Tai Chi, where you allow the energy to flow instead of straining yourself to cause an action to occur. Also, God is endless and therefore is abundant and may be continuously used without the fear of it (God/Tao) being a nonrenewable resource.


"This means that the usual methodologies such as focussed thought and meditation will not help ... responding to a loud sound outside your vision."

So, speaking from a martial arts perspective, what replaces the focused thought and meditation? I know one aspect is to have automatic reaction, but that comes from years of meditation, focus, and practice. If knowledge is the key, I should be able to break bricks, but I'll let you know that my hand would turn to jello. Maybe that's a half lie because I've broken a board before that was about 1/2" thick on my first day of martial arts class.


That is a big assumption... I rather think of it as God making Heaven and Earth from Himself (the everythingness/Tao) and their relationship is therefore "God."

"Alternatively if that were not in fact necessary at this point in history, then we could conclude that God created a process which resulted in the earth."

So ... what am I missing? Heaven is in Earth and Earth is in Heaven? There are no steps to the process?


"That purpose is based on Gods intent ... That direction has been set by God trying to change the direction of the wheel results in bad Karma."

So the war is fought with luck? So The Wheel is the Yin/Yang Symbol? And it's the Wheel of Fortune? LOL. How does one determine which direction to turn the wheel/with the wheel? Trial and Error? I was once asked what shape I represented and I picked the circle, being the only male who did so. I was told that I was romantic and thought provoking ... just thought I would share that. I seem to have a natural feel for Karma... knowing when things are going wrong and then changing directions (spiritually speaking).


"A response is that the spirit knows but the mind incapable of comprehending due to the issue of the purpose being related to an event in the future."

I read that thinking "Blah, blah, blah... blah, blah, blah." Let me try to focus better. So we are basically so fixed with the present that we cannot comprehend the future? But from your views, all points in time are a single point, viewed from a different perspective. So either this body is the trouble or I am the trouble to this body . Uh oh.

"The issue is more in relation to a decision your purpose is to make a choice ... When if you had set your alarm for 6:05 you would have met for the first time the woman you would marry, which would have the child whose life you were suppose to save."

Boggle?!?!?!?....!?!?!? LOL! I think I'll just try to make my own destiny. I don't think I have any questions because I've heard of that before, but I'm not sure that I subscribe to that magazine. If my purpose is to make a choice, then I am a decision machine. I guess I technically am a decision machine, but that seems like an odd "fate." What if I don't want to save my son? Or if I never have my son? Sorry... sometimes I take the perspective of the sadistic bast**d.

"A destiny is an event, which occurs in space and time... you lead your life as free to choose your own path."

My choices seem to be limited, but maybe I still don't get the rules of the game/war. If I am "free," then I can change "the Matrix" at will. Of course, my changes would have to approve with God, I suppose, but the only freedom is the one without rules against using the freedom. I thought of this earlier... the only true freedom is to have no other freedoms pressed upon you. In a sense, the only freedom we have is the freedom to endure the so-called "freedoms" of others because we are always subject to the slavery imposed by other people's choices. That is a somber way of looking at things, but is it not the truth? Freedom is also a slavery, because your freedom results in another slavery. I'm not sure that I get the point of this war unless it is to be the one free man left. What's wrong with my logic?


"LOL there is a book called the Tao of Physics by Fritsov Capra might I suggest you read it..."

I own it. I haven't read it yet... don't ask me why.


"I have often considered that the Universe as we understand it is a mitochondria..."

And? Did you come to a conclusion? Did your views change for any particular reason?


"Freedom of choice is often described as the best reason why evil exists ... automatons ... Priest are trained as warriors. The issue being they are trained to fight whom with the answer being they are so prepared to deal with evil."

I don't think choice is the "source of evil." Evil can be avoided if natural laws were different... so that nervous system did not sense pain, that our bodies were basically immortal in nature while alive, as well as several other factors that would keep from "evil" being inherant in both nature and morality. Automatons are considered perfectly content, but if we are not, then wouldn't we strive to be an automaton? That doesn't make sense, so I reject that idea... similar to saying that "death" is the purpose of life. Being a warrior seems like a necessary evil in itself for the priests.

"In response ... God provides a means of defense for the Good ... "

And provides the means to do evil for those who are evil. Is God a double-edged sword, with a spiked handle? I see your point about defense, but defense seems like a way to adapt evil to cause evil to evil so that they get a taste of their own medicine. This would only work for a Buddhist or Taoist.

"Human beings .... Ridding reality of evil would be akin to declawing a cat the problems of survival would still exist but we would have no way of surviving."

So perhaps we would need to change reality. Could a Good God not change reality? Is our purpose to be a "god-in-training?" Wow, there are a lot of people who would fail. Declawing a cat makes them more "cooperative" creatures, which is what Taoism claims the universe represents anyway.

"Finally and beyond this is a request to define what for you is evil?"

I'll take the cheap way out and use the quote of a famous philosopher that evil is not something I can define, but it is something I know when I see it. Of course, perhaps I'm full of crap.

OK, in this one thread, that's cool. Just limit all the quotes in other threads, please. In this thread, though, you have the go ahead to continue. If anyone questions it, tell them that I gave you the OK for this thread. Continue the discussion and enjoy.

regs out...

Thanks.

Will do.

I'm sure you know what I'm about to say. Why not put God to the test? My only defense for God is that his proofs might already be out there; they are just hard to recognize. This also brings up a question for me about theists who believe Jesus is God... but Jesus is clearly saying that God is a separate entity to need proof for/against. I think it would be more funny if Jesus' actual response was, "I'm Taoist," in which the answer speaks for itself. ....... As a second note, I would not agree that pain and suffering are a proving ground, nor a positive way to get closer to God. ... what a dreadful thought.

Note that these belief systems do incorporate man as integral to the resolution of Gods plan. In respect to this those people who are good are deemed Angels and those who are evil are in fact Demons. In relation to this issue God did provide a means to fight evil in the form of methodologies which are often related to as "the secrets of secrets." For most ancient religions. A good example was the Ark of the Covenant, which could result in death if you touched it without having the proper training.

This is a very interesting quote. When I read it, I not only agreed, and thought of magnetism

Try this out and get back to me......

Put your hand together like a praying Buddha...fingers pouting towards...rub them a bit till the cushions in your palm get a bit hotter. (You don�t have to do this but it helps sometimes) slowly move your hands away from each other like not wider than4-5 centimeters.

Then bring them slowly together (don�t let them touch again though) and apart together apart (slow) etc. You will feel like as if the hands are magnets. When you want to put them together they will feel as if they are the same poles. You have to push harder than you would think. If you want to get them away from each other, it feels as if you have to pull harder.

Everybody can do this and you don�t need to rub your hands but people somehow get more focussed on it that way,

I would contend at this point that the "mysterious female" is God. God being the "root" of Heaven and Earth. God being the being that gave birth to Heaven and Earth (mother). Also, God expanding Her being into the creation we see today would make Her the "roots" that lie underneath all of creation (similar to string theory). Wow, I'm good. The "continuous" comment would be the fact that all things are composed of God and that fact never changes. The "exertion" comment seems to go back to Tai Chi, where you allow the energy to flow instead of straining yourself to cause an action to occur. Also, God is endless and therefore is abundant and may be continuously used without the fear of it (God/Tao) being a nonrenewable resource.

Its apparent that you are looking at the Tao from a Christian Perspective and to be honest I really cannot argue that you have said something wrong here (with exception of the "wow am I good part"). I would add though those all-living things do exist as separate, all things couldn�t be God. Believing that all things are God does portend to the idea that all thoughts are from God and can be justified that way despite there intent is to harm without cause and or justification.

So, speaking from a martial arts perspective, what replaces the focused thought and meditation?

It�s to get to the point where such things as meditation and focussed thought become reflexes. Achieving the state necessary to break brick all the time. Without having to think about it or taking the time to meditate.

So the war is fought with luck? So The Wheel is the Yin/Yang Symbol? And it's the Wheel of Fortune? LOL. How does one determine which direction to turn the wheel/with the wheel? Trial and Error? I was once asked what shape I represented and I picked the circle, being the only male who did so. I was told that I was romantic and thought provoking ... just thought I would share that. I seem to have a natural feel for Karma... knowing when things are going wrong and then changing directions (spiritually speaking).

Karma is not really just about luck it is as well about decisions, that aspect of it has to do with why in Buddhism. Acts against others can be a determent of ones own life or ones reincarnations. There exists in this system of belief a Law of the Wheel it has similarities with Gods winepress presented in Christian society,

But from your views, all points in time are a single point, viewed from a different perspective. So either this body is the trouble or I am the trouble to this body . Uh oh.

It�s not so much that the Future is incomprehensible, your question was why do we not know our destiny. My example was to present the multitude of variables inherent is a destiny. In relation to my views the present and past coexist but the future is separate in relation to our perspective. In relation to Gods Perspective that would be different. I feel we have the capacity to modify our perspective to an extent that we can become what we define as Infinite. Which to God is probably is not even close to what he defines as the same.

Freedom is also a slavery, because your freedom results in another slavery. I'm not sure that I get the point of this war unless it is to be the one free man left. What's wrong with my logic?

Understand Protector what has been presented to date is in relation to the belief systems of people who lived thousands of years ago (And by the way within the context of a specific belief). That mankind is part of some battle, which has been waging for a quadrillion to the tenth power years (and even more). Is somewhat difficult to really accept in relation to a faith above all faiths. This in not to say that I feel such a faith exist at presents, but in relation to understanding all faiths. Finding the common ground there does seem to be a solution.

So perhaps we would need to change reality. Could a Good God not change reality? Is our purpose to be a "god-in-training?" Wow, there are a lot of people who would fail. Declawing a cat makes them more "cooperative" creatures, which is what Taoism claims the universe represents anyway.

You are talking about things, as we understand them and presenting that there must be a better way. If there was than how would what we defined as real present itself. Would then there exist other definition to Evil, would those definitions constitute justification for a conclusion that life is unfair. My point is that this is an issue of perspective one which words define within what is a context. Much of what we call evil is the reuslt of limitations and or lack of recources. Such is the experience of Nature of which the Tao is at one with.

I'll take the cheap way out and use the quote of a famous philosopher that evil is not something I can define, but it is something I know when I see it.

Do you then feel nature is evil?


PS: in relation to Regs concerns, these post are getting very long we need to find a way to address that issue
At the very least for the sake of the readers beyond ourselves


[Edited on 15-2-2003 by Toltec]

Ok, guys. I put a warning at the top of the 1st post of the thread. Hope you don't mind.

regs out...

"In relation to this issue God did provide a means to fight evil in the form of methodologies which are often related to as "the secrets of secrets." For most ancient religions. A good example was the Ark of the Covenant, which could result in death if you touched it without having the proper training."

Any specifics on these "secrets of secrets?" I know the Arc of the Covenant is suppose to be a capacitor that stores electricity, so you probably want to have the Arc grounded before you play with it.

In relation to the hand exercise, I have done that several times. It isn't that big of a secret to feel the magnetic energy of your own body. Perhaps finding out what I should feel for next (or visualize next) would aid me efforts in feeling for energy.


"Its apparent that you are looking at the Tao from a Christian Perspective ... I would add though those all-living things do exist as separate, all things couldn�t be God. Believing that all things are God does portend to the idea that all thoughts are from God and can be justified that way despite there intent is to harm without cause and or justification."

Yes I do look at it from a Christian perspective. Why could all things not be God? You yourself said that we can not understand the depth of God's plan.


"It�s to get to the point where such things as meditation and focussed thought become reflexes."

I have fairly good focus, but I never meditate... I fall asleep easily. I still cannot break bricks before they would break me.


"It�s not so much that the Future is incomprehensible .... I feel we have the capacity to modify our perspective to an extent that we can become what we define as Infinite. Which to God is probably is not even close to what he defines as the same."

Probably not. Grasping for the strength of infinity sounds like a power struggle. I'm not searching for power. I would rather become one with God than become a half-infinite counterpart... assume God is not evil.


I don't really buy into the "Eternal War" bit. It seems like a pointless game and I don't think of myself as a pawn, nor will a play a pawn even if I am. My middle finger goes out to the Chessmaster.


"My point is that this is an issue of perspective one which words define within what is a context. Much of what we call evil is the reuslt of limitations and or lack of recources. Such is the experience of Nature of which the Tao is at one with."


So then we need to find out what "purpose" is. The Tao, just because it works, doesn't make it 100% correct. Beating a woman may "keep her in line," but the end result will probably be jail, lose of money, lose of love, and possibly death. Just because something "works" doesn't make it the right answer.


"Do you then feel nature is evil?"

Quite the opposite. I feel that either evil exists or I am evil, but nature just "is." If I get hit by the lava of a volcano and die, it wasn't that the Earth was trying to get back at me. There were no false intentions, I just happened to be in a place where I could not survive. That is not evil. The fact that intention, purpose, and action all put together cause evil acts IS EVIL as I would see it... Such as Hitler planning to gas the Jews.

Let's stop arguing over the first few passages of the Tao and move on... perhaps more answers are yet in store.

No problems here Regs your patients as well as your concerns are apreciated

Any specifics on these "secrets of secrets?" I know the Arc of the Covenant is suppose to be a capacitor that stores electricity, so you probably want to have the Arc grounded before you play with it.

Might I make the suggestion that if one is well grounded the same is applicable, the Ark of the Covenant is one example. There is in reality no culture, which does not express some sort of training or aggressive response. This to a threat or to its inherent right to survive beyond any such threats. Such is the essence of the Quabalah as well as Nimpo Karumijutsu.

In relation to the hand exercise, I have done that several times. It isn't that big of a secret to feel the magnetic energy of your own body. Perhaps finding out what I should feel for next (or visualize next) would aid me efforts in feeling for energy.

To be honest your going to need a subject/friend someone you can trust who can verify the experience as an actual event. Applying the same technique in relation to how you are focussed, but this time using one of your hands and one of there�s. If all works well you should get responses to the effect; they felt there hands were being moved by control outside their own.

Yes I do look at it from a Christian perspective. Why could all things not be God? You yourself said that we can not understand the depth of God's plan.

A problem that often comes with a philosophy like that is in relation to some concluding that they are God. That the decisions they make are because God is making them. I know of someone who actually believes this whole heatedly and in fact makes excuses for their inappropriate behaviors, as something God wanted them to do. While it is true I feel we cannot understand the depth of Gods plan my impressions that free will is an aspect of that plan. If we are by our acts, reacting solely to what God wants to do as if we are appendages then free will does not exist. In Buddhism Hands of God are acknowledged in this respect, as well are they seen as
prophets akin in value to Jesus. By this presentation it is made clear that the average human condition is not in this state.

I have fairly good focus, but I never meditate... I fall asleep easily. I still cannot break bricks before they would break me.

In learning to meditate falling asleep is very common try getting more sleep than normal on certain days and then the following day begin trying to learn to meditate.
Also always meditate in the same position this causes to brain to become trained to respond to your behavior as this being the time for meditation. Developing a meditative technique take's years (even decades), and even after that there are good and bad days.

Probably not. Grasping for the strength of infinity sounds like a power struggle. I'm not searching for power. I would rather become one with God than become a half-infinite counterpart... assume God is not evil.

If you�re looking forward to, in this life time developing your awareness. Then that is a process, which in respect to many different systems of belief can be achieved using certain steps. If by becoming one with God you mean becoming God or integrating with God that has rarely been accepted as a positive goal. These process of development have at times been referred to as methodologies, which allow one to achieve Christ Consciousness but that does not mean one becomes Christ son of God but rather is described as related in awareness and conscience to Christ. Awareness of what is us is infinite is not a search for power but rather a perspective/orientation in relation to our surroundings. Finally there is the issue of being "At one with God" which is defined as maintain a moral code in relation to what most systems of religious belief acknowledge as correct.


Ok lets look at this passage....

Without going out the door, knowing everything,
Without peaking out the windowshades, seeing the Way of Heaven.

The further you go, the less you know.

The sage understands without having to go through the whole process.
She is famous without showing herself.
Is perfected without striving.

"There is in reality no culture, which does not express some sort of training or aggressive response. This to a threat or to its inherent right to survive beyond any such threats. Such is the essence of the Quabalah as well as Nimpo Karumijutsu."

I agree that everyone should be prepared. On the other hand, I believe morality and manners are a better form of preparation for life than weapons are.


"If all works ... felt there hands were being moved by control outside their own."

Hmm... We'll see if I can find anyone to play along.


"A problem that often comes with a philosophy like that is in relation to some concluding that they are God. That the decisions they make are because God is making them."

So they are mistaken. My belief still stands that we are all made of God, but that doesn't mean we can't act independently. Remember how you told me to look deep down at the subatomic aspects of ourselves? Well think of our relationship with God to be similar. We are like the individual living cells that live inside of God, but God would still exist even if we didn't. We are like bacteria... which can be helpful or harmful. Do I believe I am God? Yes. Do I believe God is making my decisions? No. Specific choices do not necessarily relate to form.

"I know of someone who actually believes this whole heartedly[sic] and in fact makes excuses for their inappropriate behaviors, as something God wanted them to do."

I appologize if this offends you, but he/she is an idiot. Just because you make a claim doesn't mean you aren't a fool making a claim. That was why science was developed.

"While it is true I feel we cannot understand the depth of Gods plan my impressions that free will is an aspect of that plan."

True, but that doesn't mean we are separate from God. Again, choice is not necessarily related to form. I believe our primary substance to be "God-matter," if you will, but the bacteria inside of me do not make my decisions, nor do I make theirs. Life just happens to be symbiotic for the both of us.

"If we are by our acts, reacting solely to what God wants to do as if we are appendages then free will does not exist."

True, but perhaps the "appendage" analogy shouldn't be taken so literally. I think of the universe as a compilation of choices of both us, other life forms in the universe (including any spirits if they exist), and God. In conclusion, we may have free will, but free will is limited to having everyone else's free will, including God's. God's Plan would be His own free will in the matter of our existence. Our free will encompasses certain specific occurances in our lives, as well as our choices about God. That seems to complete a full circle. We make choices about God and He makes choices about us. This thought will probably need appending in the future.


"In Buddhism Hands of God are acknowledged in this respect, as well are they seen as prophets akin in value to Jesus. By this presentation it is made clear that the average human condition is not in this state."

That went over my head. I don't know of the Hands of God, but I have heard the term before. Please explain.


"In learning to meditate ... and even after that there are good and bad days."

I didn't mean that I fell asleep while trying to meditate. I meant that I can fall asleep (an odd occurance in my family) within minutes, if not seconds, at will. The only prerequisite is that I'm tired. They say that babies learn a type of hypnosis when they are rocked to sleep. I can apparently cause my mind to go into this state very quickly. My only link to meditation, that comes naturally, is my ability to go to sleep very quickly... and that is perhaps more so related to hypnosis.


"If you�re looking forward to ...developing your awareness... If by becoming one with God you mean becoming God or integrating with God that has rarely been accepted as a positive goal."

Darn. I find "integrating" with God to be a positive goal. Maybe it is not the goal "to integrate" literally speaking, yet the goal is to perhaps understand how I am already intertwined within God. Let me make a short example.

To learn telekinesis, one popular view is that you have to learn your connection with nature, or the subatomic universe, or a substance that both you and your object have in relation to each other. Well, using this same principle, my search entails finding out how I exist within God and what our common links are. I would be happy to "serve" God if it is a request, such as one would help a friend or family member in need. Looking at it from my perspective, the counter to that request would be that I could make requests of God. e.g. I save a little boy's life that God favors, then God helps me to understand love. Both give and take, or give and receive with no take necessary. I believe it is called the ideal relationship, where people can both benefit at any time, but never force the other to deliver results. I'm sure I've confused you by now.

"These processes [sic] ... allow one to achieve Christ Consciousness but that does not mean one becomes Christ son of God but rather is described as related in awareness and conscience to Christ."

Yes, I have known this for quite some time and have searched out these ideals. Much of the teachings for Christ Consciousness seem to be similar to the journey of the Buddhist for enlightenment. What I explained in the example above is an aspect of what I believe to be this "consciousness."

"Awareness of what is us is infinite is not a search for power but rather a perspective/orientation in relation to our surroundings."

I agree with the first line, but I also believe it goes deeper than that. *wipes sweat from forehead* I'm certainly glad that you didn't think this journey was about power. I had an impression in your last note that either you believed this search for enlightenment was about power, or you thought I was in it for power. In my searches, I've come to learn that it is about happiness, the thrill of the journey, and the relationship along the way. There is no end to infinity, so my existence needs to be situated so that I fulfill those 3 goals throughout my incredibly long existence. Perhaps I am a human because I needed a refresher course in these lessons.

"Finally there is the issue of being "At one with God" which is defined as maintaining [sic] a moral code in relation to what most systems of religious belief acknowledge as correct."

I hope to become one with God, but perhaps in a way which I do not understand yet. I believe the only way to be completely fulfilled is to find out what "stuff" I am made of. Since you know I believe that I am made of God, then I must understand how our relationship works inorder to be completed. I have already put many religious beliefs aside in my journey and I will continue to grow and change as long as I feel my connection and understanding are getting stronger.


Passage:
"Without going out the door, knowing everything,
Without peaking out the windowshades, seeing the Way of Heaven."

I think this is a reference to turning within one's self to find the answers. It is not a matter of the eyes or the world, but a matter of you/me. I have not seen the Way of Heaven, but I am searching for it, but from within and without.

"The further you go, the less you know."

This sounds like Socrates/Plato. I do agree that the more knowledge you have, the more questions you have, which seems to increase exponentially.

"The sage understands without having to go through the whole process.

I need to sage-ify myself .
"She is famous without showing herself.
Is perfected without striving."

Maybe I need to find a way to unleash my own inner sage. Any suggestions?


Just for reference, "[sic]" means I made a correction to spelling or slightly changed the sentence.

It sounds like what you are reflecting is in relation to event-symmetric space-time and or the coupling of space-time and matter. In which case it would seem that you are not presenting the, idea that reality, as we understand it is an illusion. One in which God is
the sole player and our lives are just his idea of entertainment.


Good I was concerned about that as, the latter concept quite frankly seems like a delusion. And had that been the purpose of your presentation this conversation would (today) have been a lot different.


www.physlink.com...

adela.karlin.mff.cuni.cz...

Here are two links which presents the former would ask that you review them and offer an opinion as to if they fit into this conversation. The issue of Symmetry with respect to reality is actually fascinating culminating
with the idea that matter at the more fundamental levels is in actuality (for instance) photon holes...

Photon holes are essentially negative radiation pressure, the absence of photons. This is what the author pictures as matter as well as the space surrounding matter. The imbalance of photon holes is gravity, the curvature of space and time. Hence, matter automatically has gravity.

The passage presents the idea that everything needed to become a sage is already incorporated into the human form. And there is no need to look outside the home, one way of understanding that is in relation to immediate environment and those who are family as well as friends.

Maybe I need to find a way to unleash my own inner sage. Any suggestions?

To hold until full is not as good as stopping.
An oversharpened sword cannot last long.
A room filled with gold and jewels cannot be protected.
Boasting of wealth and virtue brings your demise.
After finishing the work, withdraw.

This is the Way of Heaven.


Pacifying the agitated material soul and holding to oneness:
Are you able to avoid separation?
Focusing your energy on the release of tension:
Can you be like an infant?
In purifying your insight:
Can you un-obstruct it?
Loving the people and ruling the state:
Can you avoid over-manipulation?
In opening and closing the gate of Heaven:
Can you be the female?
In illuminating the whole universe:
Can you be free of rationality?


Give birth to it and nourish it.
Produce it but don't possess it.
Act without expectation.
Excel, but don't take charge.

This is called Mysterious Virtue

Thirty spokes join together in the hub.
It is because of what is not there that the cart is useful.
Clay is formed into a vessel.
It is because of its emptiness that the vessel is useful.
Cut doors and windows to make a room.
It is because of its emptiness that the room is useful.
Therefore, what is present is used for profit.

But it is in absence that there is usefulness.

------------------------
What are your thoughts?

[Edited on 19-2-2003 by Toltec]

"It sounds like what you are reflecting is in relation to event-symmetric space-time and or the coupling of space-time and matter. In which case it would seem that you are not presenting the, idea that reality, as we understand it is an illusion. One in which God is
the sole player and our lives are just his idea of entertainment."

I do couple spacetime and matter. As far as event-symmetric spacetime, that is perhaps a matter of the existence of time travel. Even without E-S spacetime, the event-driven present is still a factor. Reality, even if it is an illusion, makes it no less or more real. Our dreams are illusions, but still important while we are a part of them. Reality being an illusion still dictates the importance of our relationship with the illusion. If God is the only player, then WE are the only player because WE are God. The problem is not a paradox, it is merely a matter of acceptence of what is real and true. We often entertain ourselves, so why would the transcendent being of God be different? Even if existence is a game of Solitaire, it still has some sort of value, otherwise it would not exist. When relating this to an illusion, remember that illusions do exist, they just don't exist in the form you assume they exist in.

I will check out your links later.

"The passage presents the idea that everything needed to become a sage is already incorporated into the human form.

A sage is a human, as I understand it.

"And there is no need to look outside the home, one way of understanding that is in relation to immediate environment and those who are family as well as friends."

Yes, basical ideals are found in all structures of all things... except perhaps emotions which seem to be formed somewhat independently of many factors.

"To hold until full is not as good as stopping.
An oversharpened sword cannot last long.
A room filled with gold and jewels cannot be protected.
Boasting of wealth and virtue brings your demise.
After finishing the work, withdraw."

Like the overflowing tea cup analogy.
If it needs to be sharpened, it needs to be used.
Valuables are only as protected as those who want them the most.
Flaunting your excesses is a way bring you a state of false joy.
Do not dwell.

I think that stuff is basic Zen.


"Pacifying the agitated material soul and holding to oneness:
Are you able to avoid separation?"

I think I'm a part of God. That's got to go on the part of "wholeness" and lack of separation.

"Focusing your energy on the release of tension:
Can you be like an infant?"

I still watch cartoons from time to time .

"In purifying your insight:
Can you un-obstruct it?"

Like a bulldozer. I still don't meditate, however.

"Loving the people and ruling the state:
Can you avoid over-manipulation?"

I am my own man.

"In opening and closing the gate of Heaven:
Can you be the female?"

This sounds like a Mother Earth thing, as well as a way to view life from varying perspectives.

"In illuminating the whole universe:
Can you be free of rationality?"

Does this entail over-rationalizing situations? Or does this mean you are willing to go against the grain? Either way, I think I'm ok.


"Give birth to it and nourish it.
Produce it but don't possess it."

Simple enough. Unless this has a deeper meaning than regular birth. Hmmm... I'll think on it.

"Act without expectation.
Excel, but don't take charge."

Hehehe... I like that second line. Again, that is a type of Zen, I believe. Act w/o expectation is one thing I am not good at.

"This is called Mysterious Virtue"

Any alternate translations of this?

"Thirty spokes join together in the hub.
It is because of what is not there that the cart is useful."

Umm... what's not there? Because it doesn't stay still (temporal movement)?

"Clay is formed into a vessel.
It is because of its emptiness that the vessel is useful."

This makes sense. But if applied to humans, it assumes that they should be slaves so someone else may use them. I would hope this has an alternate meaning.

"Cut doors and windows to make a room.
It is because of its emptiness that the room is useful.
Therefore, what is present is used for profit."

Pathways of entrance and exist for the use of the open space inside. I don't get that last line. Maybe my mind isn't in the "Tao" mode right now... or maybe this is where my training has stopped and I need help.

"But it is in absence that there is usefulness."

Perhaps like a blank canvas. The artist is free to do as he chooses... absence denotes freedom. Interesting.

What can you add?

The human form is akin to a vessel in relation to learning and development of awareness, at birth as well as before one is trained it is considered empty. What past relates can be inferred as an aspect of its structure and so what is of relevance is how the human vessel is filled.

The "Hub" pertaining to a center an orientation to what is humans is relatable to the center of ones being, ones capacity to be human as in awareness and freedom of will. What makes a human useful is his or her ability to fill the vessel with information and apply it to form.

"But it is in absence that there is usefulness."

Perhaps like a blank canvas. The artist is free to do as he chooses... absence denote freedom. Interesting.

Here you are getting the point awareness before education is akin to the empty room, which is then afforded information.

"In illuminating the whole universe:
Can you be free of rationality?"

Does this entail over-rationalizing situations? Or does this mean you are willing to go against the grain? Either way, I think I'm ok.

Not so much against the grain but open to impressions, ideas and definitions, which are not just conclusions, formed by other but as well within you. Agree to disagree that everything you think today is absolute to the extent that you are open to its opposite.

"Give birth to it and nourish it.
Produce it but don't possess it."

Simple enough. Unless this has a deeper meaning than regular birth. Hmmm... I'll think on it.

Taking what was mentioned in response to your last quote take this phrase into consideration.

"In purifying your insight:
Can you un-obstruct it?"

Like a bulldozer. I still don't meditate, however.

again consider the opposite of definitions about reality you feel are sound and that does not mean these news ideas are suppose to be unsound. Rather a sound response which is opposite to your views.

"Focusing your energy on the release of tension:
Can you be like an infant?"

I still watch cartoons from time to time

LOL but consider that are you able to realize that as you develop and learn realize that to an extent you are not unlike a child learning to walk. These new experiences open new vistas whose conclusion may in fact be much different than any expectation you had prior to achieving them.

"Pacifying the agitated material soul and holding to oneness:
Are you able to avoid separation?"

I think I'm a part of God. That's got to go on the part of "wholeness" and lack of separation.

The oneness being the unification of opposites.

Before moving on lets discuss further what we have here.

What are your thoughts?

I've spent the last few hours reading one of my books on Zen lessons.

Some of them are enlightening, while others are more situation oriented. I noticed that the reason why I grasp things in martial arts fairly easily is because of my relaxed attitude towards training and achievement. Instead of trying to do things, I would just do things (no thought required) and I have been able to achieve more. At other times, I could combine thought with action, instantly, to achieve a specific goal. When I thought about things is when I would lose my bearings. I have a tendency to over analyze, as well, which usually hurts in regards to my relationships.

As another side note, I was reading through my copy of the Tao Te Ching and it is not as "open" to interpretation as the one we are using. The one I have seems to have definite marks of religion and specific interpretations of passages. I was going to cross reference some of our past discussions with it, but I found that my version is quite a bit different and the comparisons would be almost impossible to make. I'm glad you have such a good version for us to "argue" over .

Getting on with things...

"The human form is akin to a vessel in relation to learning and development of awareness, at birth as well as before one is trained it is considered empty."

I'm assuming this concept goes hand-in-hand with the concept of a soul. The soul dictates how the body grows and develops. The empty vessel is the body, the soul the control center, and the lessons the "stuff" to fill the body. As far as emptiness vs fulfillment, where does the mind add or subtract to this concept of "the vessel" "before" training?

"The "Hub" pertaining to a center"

The Tan-ten? Of course, that word has like 30 spellings, but I'm trying to mean the "center of balance, gravity, and ki in the body." Now going back to the original passage, the spokes coming together sounds like the meridians converging in "the center" or "hub" and this hub is empty (meaning a void, perhaps???) and is therefore useful to me??? Maybe? Or am I getting too specific?

"relatable to the center of ones being, ones capacity to be human as in awareness and freedom of will."

That is a bit too cryptic for me. "ones being," "to be human," and "awareness" are all too vague for me to piece together.

"What makes a human useful is his or her ability to fill the vessel with information and apply it to form."

So am I the vessel or the liquid or the information? I suppose I'm a combination, working in tandom. This is getting complicated.

"Here you are getting the point awareness before education is akin to the empty room, which is then afforded information."

What do you mean by "awareness before education?" Aware of what, specifically? I think I understood this better when I read it the first time . Now my mind is jumbling it all up.

"Rather a sound response which is opposite to your views."

I get what you are saying. Even if I feel I have a confident answer, think about one that is counter to that answer in an opposite light, while making the opposing argument as fair and rational as the original answer.

"but consider that are you able to realize that as you develop and learn realize that to an extent you are not unlike a child learning to walk. These new experiences open new vistas whose conclusion may in fact be much different than any expectation you had prior to achieving them."

I'll keep that "child learning to walk" thing in mind. I'll keep an open mind and try to both accept and challenge the new ideas that I take in.

"The oneness being the unification of opposites."

Ah. The Yin-Yang. I have trouble with this, often times, but I try. I'm sure my dealings with this concept will need developing for years to come.

Let's move on now, perhaps we will touch back on these points a bit later after we have discovered more within the Tao.

The five colors blind our eyes.
The five tones deafen our ears.
The five flavors confuse our taste.
Racing and hunting madden our minds.
Possessing rare treasures brings about harmful behavior.
Therefore the sage regards his center, and not his eyes.

He lets go of that and chooses this.

I'm not certain what this "five" means, but it could have to do with the elements, or all five senses combined, or a number of other things.

Conquest confuses our minds to what is true.

Holding what is unique to a high value will distract our minds from the general forms.

The sage trusts his connection with the universe (center of being) and allows himself/herself to see the truth.

This variant from the senses is a freedom and it must be chosen with the will.

In chapter 12, my book states:
"Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees."

As I was saying, the connection with the universe, or the senses beyond the other 5 senses, is the feeling, not seeing, that they refer to.

Going back, in chapter 11, my book has one of the lines written as:
"Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful."

This causes the passage to take more of an active role in the vessel as well as the space, where one must shape their vessel (body) and utilize their space (capacity for use). A more efficient and/or larger vessel has the ability to use a greater capacity. This also reminds me of RAM in a computer, where the more you have, as well as the less cluttered and faster it can be utilized, the better the RAM. Therefore speed, organization, and size will all be modified by the vessel to accomodate the space.

I believe that is enough for the time being. What do you think?

As far as emptiness vs fulfillment, where does the mind add or subtract to this concept of "the vessel" "before" training?

That would depend on how you are defining the mind in relation to the Tao separations between what is the soul and mind are not as distinct. The soul has knowledge in relation to past lives and so the information learned in the life you are living will be
added to the souls wisdom.

What do you mean by "awareness before education?" Aware of what, specifically? I think I understood this better when I read it the first time. Now my mind is jumbling it all up.

from one point of view the above presents the response, but as well there is always awareness before learning (as the awareness of a teenager
before he or she goes into college and so on).

Ah. The Yin-Yang. I have trouble with this, often times, but I try. I'm sure my dealings with this concept will need developing for years to come.

Some say the cup is half empty others say it is half full but in reality the cup is both half empty and half full. While the later always applies the former is only representing a half-truth.

He lets go of that and chooses this.
Therefore the sage regards his center, and not his eyes.
Possessing rare treasures brings about harmful behavior.
Racing and hunting madden our minds.
The five flavors confuse our taste.
The five tones deafen our ears.
The five colors blind our eyes.

Yes it has been prepared in relation to its opposite from the context of the order of lines. What do you notice about it?

Consider that the soul is a vast Archive on knowledge upon which each new experience is assessed. So while possessions might be of interest to you, to your soul they have no value at all. Therefore to place a value on such things is not of value to a sage.

In chapter 12, my book states:
"Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees."

As I was saying, the connection with the universe, or the senses beyond the other 5 senses, is the feeling, not seeing that they refer to.

Information collected about your environment is done so by the senses. In response to that information, a person draws a conclusion in relation to what is observed, that conclusion is what the sage feels. It presents that to the sage what he feels is a response which entails access to the archive of knowledge that exist within the soul.


The passage is also related to meditation, during which brain wave patterns develop. Which are akin to dreaming. The implications are that the experiences afforded one, while in these states are not to be interpreted in relation to face value.

What are your thoughts?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you mean by "awareness before education?" Aware of what, specifically? I think I understood this better when I read it the first time. Now my mind is jumbling it all up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"from one point of view the above presents the response, but as well there is always awareness before learning (as the awareness of a teenager
before he or she goes into college and so on)."

I see your point now. You must be prepared for receiving information, or anything that might fill your "vessel."


"Some say the cup is half empty others say it is half full but in reality the cup is both half empty and half full. While the later always applies the former is only representing a half-truth."

I say the cup is completely full. One part with liquid, the other with air. The cup is full none the less. Plus, the cup is made of a material which is not hollow.

He lets go of that and chooses this.
Therefore the sage regards his center, and not his eyes.
Possessing rare treasures brings about harmful behavior.
Racing and hunting madden our minds.
The five flavors confuse our taste.
The five tones deafen our ears.
The five colors blind our eyes.


Yes it has been prepared in relation to its opposite from the context of the order of lines. What do you notice about it?

I read the same thing forward and backwards. Am I missing something?

"Consider that the soul is a vast Archive on knowledge upon which each new experience is assessed. So while possessions might be of interest to you, to your soul they have no value at all. Therefore to place a value on such things is not of value to a sage."

Ok.

"Information collected about your environment is done so by the senses. In response to that information, a person draws a conclusion in relation to what is observed, that conclusion is what the sage feels. It presents that to the sage what he feels is a response which entails access to the archive of knowledge that exist within the soul."

Yes, emotion is tied to perception. So emotions are accesses of the archive? Is that why some people have conservative lifestyles, while others are more liberal? I'm not sure that I buy it, but it doesn't sound half-bad.

"The passage is also related to meditation, during which brain wave patterns develop. Which are akin to dreaming. The implications are that the experiences afforded one, while in these states are not to be interpreted in relation to face value."

So it isn't the content, but the moral of the dream that counts. Same for meditation. Makes sense.

15.
The ancient masters of the Tao
Had subtle marvelous mystic penetration
A depth that cannot be known.
It is exactly because that they are unknowable
That we are forced to pay attention to their appearance.
Hesitant, like one crossing an ice-covered river.
Ready, like one afraid of his neighbors on all sides.
Dignified, like a guest.
Loose, like ice about to melt.
Straightforward, like an uncarved block of wood.
Open, like a valley.
Obscure, like muddy water.

Who can be muddled, and use clarity to gradually become lucid?
Who can be calm, and use constant application for eventual success?

The one who holds to this path does not crave fulfillment.
Precisely because he does not crave fulfillment
He can be shattered
And do without quick restitution.


Perhaps significant variations in my copy:
Hollow, like caves. (Open, like a valley.)

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?
Who can remain still until the moment of action?
Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment.
Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.

Would you like to add your comments first this time?

[Edited on 27-2-2003 by Protector]

I read the same thing forward and backwards. Am I missing something?

They are equal but opposite in relation to what was mentioned before it is a sound opposite to its original.

Yes, emotion is tied to perception. So emotions are accesses of the archive? Is that why some people have conservative lifestyles, while others are more liberal? I'm not sure that I buy it, but it doesn't sound half-bad.

Gut feelings can have access to the Archive and a person properly trained can access this sort of intuitive
Conclusion at will. Much like one properly trained can break bricks, at the very least that is the implication of the text. Keep in mind that this is not necessarily a reference to ESP. But rather an emphasis should be placed on a heightened capacity as an observer. As an ability which allows the sage, to discern much more than the average person in relation to any particular phenomenon.

The ancient masters of the Tao
Had subtle marvelous mystic penetration
A depth that cannot be known.
It is exactly because that they are unknowable
That we are forced to pay attention to their appearance.
Hesitant, like one crossing an ice-covered river.
Ready, like one afraid of his neighbors on all sides.
Dignified, like a guest.
Loose, like ice about to melt.
Straightforward, like an uncarved block of wood.
Open, like a valley.
Obscure, like muddy water.

Who can be muddled, and use clarity to gradually become lucid?
Who can be calm, and use constant application for eventual success?

The one who holds to this path does not crave fulfillment.
Precisely because he does not crave fulfillment
He can be shattered
And do without quick restitution.

This presents the issue of access to the soul archive of knowledge as well as awareness on the part of the sage that death is not defined in relation to an end. This with respect to addressing the issues of life.

Effect emptiness to the extreme.
Keep stillness whole.
Myriad things act in concert.
I therefore watch their return.
All things flourish and each returns to its root.

Returning to the root is called quietude.
Quietude is called returning to life.
Return to life is called constant.
Knowing this constant is called illumination.
Acting arbitrarily without knowing the constant is harmful.
Knowing the constant is receptivity, which is impartial.

Impartiality is kingship.
Kingship is Heaven.
Heaven is Tao
Tao is eternal.

Though you lose the body, you do not die.

Now it�s your turn