The Da Vinci Code and Holy Grail

Imagine theres Jesus' grand son / daughter living somewhere. How could one check and confirm their identity?

Is it possible to find a DNA sample of Jesus' lineage? After all his genetic lineage comes from other people, from Virgin Mary and her ancestors, any way one can find a sample of their DNA?

Virgin Mary
en.wikipedia.org...

"A theory says that her father's name was Jacob, mentioned in the genealogy of Matthew."

"Some conservative Christian scholars suggest that she, like Joseph, was also a descendant of King David (Many suggest that due to linguistic stylings of the time, the geneology presented in Matthew may have been Mary's)."

So Jacob was the father of Mary nor Joseph!


"According to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition, between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension, in either Jerusalem or Ephesus, Mary died; while surrounded by the apostles. Later, when the apostles opened her tomb, they found it empty, and concluded that she had been bodily assumed into Heaven.
"

Ok so we can't find Marys DNA, what about her parents then there must be remainings of all the kings before her?


So answer two questions please:

If i said that one found out identity of Jesus's grand son, how can you confirm it?

And two, what would be the potential benefits for that person in the society? Would he / she become big time celebrity?

Hmm... I read somewhere that there still exists the spear that the Roman soldier used to spear Jesus. It's in a museum or something... Maybe, just maybe, Jesus' DNA is on that spear? I'm not sure, but an amusing thought that in the future we could clone Jesus.

Anyways, If someone were somehow proved to be of descendent from Jesus, he or she definately would gain worldwide fame... however, I believe most Christians would think long and har about their faith, especially the Catholics.

Hmmm...very intriguing indeed. I too remember hearing something about the spear being hidden somewhere. Anyway, it is possible that it could contain the DNA of Jesus. What if cloning him was the way the second coming would take place?

If Jesus's grandson's identity could be confirmed I'm sure he would probably have a lot to live up to especially under the scruitiny of religion. It would certainly be enough to upset the religious community in general and have people re-examining what they've been taught. People hate to be wrong and religion always claims to be right.

Okay, I'm babbling now.

Originally posted by k4rupt
Hmm... I read somewhere that there still exists the spear that the Roman soldier used to spear Jesus. It's in a museum or something... Maybe, just maybe, Jesus' DNA is on that spear? I'm not sure, but an amusing thought that in the future we could clone Jesus.

Anyways, If someone were somehow proved to be of descendent from Jesus, he or she definately would gain worldwide fame... however, I believe most Christians would think long and har about their faith, especially the Catholics.

yes the spear of jesus is in a museum, but they have done extensive research into and found the the parts that surround the " actual spear" is not as old as the actual piece of the wooden wrapped inside it. they have not been able to do carbon dating on that part;. since the part that can either " make or break" the theory that it is actually the spear that gave the last blow to jesus on the cross. there is alot of contraversy when it comes to actaully dating that paticular piece. i myself beleive that it is the spear. but since it is such a small part , i dont know if there would be any DNA on it from jesus.

i think if they did find anyone who is a decendant of jesus they would be put under such a microscope to try to prove that they are not a decendant. people beleive what they want to beleive.


im out
-mindtrip02

The spear was called the "Spear of Destiny". Charlemagne, Hitler and a few other leaders knew somewhat of the legends surrounding it:

(paraphrasing) - "To hold/retain the spear - one would conquer the world".

As to whether 'this' spear (located in the museum) has reminents of Jesus' DNA - remains to be seen.

Aside from any religious icons, how would we know that any DNA found on these relics is the ACTUAL DNA of Jesus?

So many people throughout the ages i.e. : scientists, sceptics, onlookers et al, have handled these items.

So my question is:

Whose blood belongs to whom?

Very true point... can't believe I overlooked it.

We DO NOT even know if the DNA, if there is even any DNA, on the spear belongs to Jesus himself.

HOWEVER, if there was some sort of evidence that points to someone being a descendent of Christ, and it just so happens that his DNA does matches that of the spear... wouldn't that be HIGHLY coincidental?

Anyways, I am very interested in this spear... even though chances are that Jesus' DNA is not on it, it's the closest thing we have.

Yet again, people WILL believe what they want to believe. There is no truer statement.

Lets say that even if all that did happen and the "descendent" actually matched the DNA on the spear, most Christians would probably just dismiss it.

I have read somewhere that the Spear of Destiny or Holy Lance is in St peter's Basilica in Rome but the Catholic Church makes no claim to its authenticity

I have read somewhere that the Spear of Destiny or Holy Lance is in St peter's Basilica in Rome but the Catholic Church makes no claim to its authenticity

Actually as I recall It is in the National Museum in Austria.

There are a few rumoured locations of the spear, including Austria, The Vatican and Nuremburg.

This topic always confounds me.

We have no real historic proof of Jesus and only heresay of wide-eyed followers speculating about his life and endeavors. But, for arguements sake, lets say he was real, and he did have followers. Let's even go so far as to say that he was imbued by a supreme being with divine physics-defying powers.

Why all the fuss about possible offspring? One would assume that diety-like powers aren't inherited, but bestowed. And even if they were, I think it would be safe to assume that 8,000 generations later, they'd be so watered down that they'd be non-existant.

So whats the big deal? That he had children when a book said he didn't? Maybe I'm just thick, I don't get it.

Originally posted by k4rupt
Anyways, If someone were somehow proved to be of descendent from Jesus, he or she definately would gain worldwide fame... however, I believe most Christians would think long and har about their faith, especially the Catholics.

What if i told you I have been studying this for many years, suppose i started way before the main book was published.

Suppose that i have tracked down Jesus/Abraham/King David's grand son. His previous generations have been in safe keeping by a certain church in mainland euro asia (just like the book suggested), but most recent lineage was brought up in mainstream society...


Suppose we believe the time might be right to make the news public.

What was the motivations of the those protecting the Holy Grail in Dan Browns book? Werent they meant to release the information at the appropriate time? I dont know i need to read the book again...

*gathers everyone round in circle and places hands around everyone’s shoulders*

*and speaks with Italian hoarse accent*

I smell there's a lot of money involved in this. Have you read the book? Do you have any idea what kind of consequences this can have?

I need help to figure out what to do next... whats the best way to approach this.

The main point, suppose i found out who he is, there can be no doubt about this. What would you do? Help me take this the right way and I will share with ya what is to come

So spear is one possibility.

What about Jesus' parent's remains, are there any?

How else one would be able to look at the DNA sample of the person claims to be his grand son?

Wouldn't his DNA stand out from the rest some how?

Hmmm, theres got to be a way!

We need a machine that can read DNA and print out detailed description of previouse lives and genealogy.

I know of at least one other way to do that, supposedly according to Dr Leary, in the other 90% of brain humans do not normally use there is what he calls a 7th Neurogenetic circuit which can read info from within individual neurons and hence DNA RNA data. But how can you output that into a proper scientific proof?


"Anyways, I am very interested in this spear... even though chances are that Jesus' DNA is not on it, it's the closest thing we have."

Havent anyone ever bothered to check if theres any DNA there?

"Why all the fuss about possible offspring?"

It is the lineage of all the kings...

[edit on 29-8-2006 by Freeman]

Originally posted by Freeman
"Why all the fuss about possible offspring?"

It is the lineage of all the kings...

Thanks for answering.

Not to be contentious, and certainly not to be disrespectful, but, so what?

When I was growing up, we had an old neighbor who had all of his family's geneological records, much of it going back for centuries. He was of the lineage of the Jean I de Brienne the Emperor of Constantinople, Alfonso IX the King of Castilla y León, and the line of Henry III King of England, all through Mary Villiers via Mary Beaumont (No, I didn't recall all of this from memory, I called a family member and then confirmed their full names through thepeerage.com).

Know what my neighbor was?

A retired plumber.

Really.

My point being, that there are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people out there that can legitimately claim ancestry from major historical figures and the lineage of kings, biblical or not. I don't see how it makes anyone special, its not like its an excluse club anymore.

I just don't get it.


[edit on 29-8-2006 by Reality Hurts]

Originally posted by Reality Hurts
...there are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people out there that can legitimately claim ancestry from major historical figures and the lineage of kings, biblical or not. I don't see how it makes anyone special,

You make a great point regarding the ancestry of kings. However, when we are talking about Jesus we are talking about the ancestry of God. The lure of recovering Jesus's DNA is that the male genetic material was provided by GOD.

And, for any aspiring writer thinking that this would make a GREAT novel, I have good news and bad news.

The good news: You are right!

The bad news: The novel is called IN HIS IMAGE by James Beauseigneur. It's part of the Christ Clone Trilogy. In his version, scientists claim a strand of DNA from the Shroud of Turin. They decide to clone Christ and the resulting human being turns out to be....?

The Antichrist.

Awesome.

Originally posted by Essedarius
You make a great point regarding the ancestry of kings. However, when we are talking about Jesus we are talking about the ancestry of God. The lure of recovering Jesus's DNA is that the male genetic material was provided by GOD.

Ok, I can understand that "God made as man" decendents might be important to someone out there. However, as I mentioned earlier:

"One would assume that diety-like powers aren't inherited, but bestowed. And even if they were, I think it would be safe to assume that 8,000 generations later, they'd be so watered down that they'd be non-existant."

Taking it a step further, I would venure to guess that a divine being in corporeal form is just that, a divine being in corporeal form. Meaning, that the physical make up of the being wouldn't be in and of itself divine, merely a vessel.

Am I way off base here?

Originally posted by Reality Hurts
Am I way off base here?

No no no. You're on the money... (not to say that I agree, but you definitely bring up great points)


First off...Come on now, Reality!...

Ok, I can understand that "God made as man" decendents might be important to someone out there.

IF God exists and decided to become incarnate, that's important to everybody, don't you think?


Okay, on to the point...

Taking it a step further, I would venure to guess that a divine being in corporeal form is just that, a divine being in corporeal form. Meaning, that the physical make up of the being wouldn't be in and of itself divine, merely a vessel.

When someone asks you what type of person you are, how do you answer? Do you say "I'm direct. I'm charasmatic. I have a good sense of humor" or do you say "I have size 9 feet. My hair is curly. I have blue eyes?"

The fact is, who we are has very little to do with our vessel. It has to do with our insight, our temperment, and our ambition. Now I don't know whether those traits are hardwired into our DNA or if they are a part of a soul that is somehow separate from our corporeal selves...but I do think that if the "spirit" that makes a body a person were the spirit of God, that you would not be just another human.

Personally, I see too much of my parents in who I am to be able to argue that a "spirit" cannot be handed down. I think that any descendent of Jesus would be a remarkable human being. (Which is why I don't think Jesus had children...because I don't believe that a child with divine pedigree spends their life hiding in France.)

Originally posted by Freeman
So spear is one possibility.
What about Jesus' parent's remains, are there any?
How else one would be able to look at the DNA sample of the person claims to be his grand son?
Wouldn't his DNA stand out from the rest some how?
"Anyways, I am very interested in this spear... even though chances are that Jesus' DNA is not on it, it's the closest thing we have."
Havent anyone ever bothered to check if theres any DNA there?
"Why all the fuss about possible offspring?"
It is the lineage of all the kings...

[edit on 29-8-2006 by Freeman]

To start with the spear( the one in Austria) - it has no ancient DNA on it whatsover as it has been cleaned and tested, didn't you see the TV program? Also this spear is not from the 1st Century as other tests by metallurgists have shown. The only possibility of a connection that far back is a chance that a piece of merged metal is from this date (untested). Check this out: www.thequestforbibletreasures.com... _Treasure_News/Spear/01Is_the_spear_that_pierced.htm
There would be no basis for a claim of jesus descent unless there was proof of jesus and his divinity (of which there is neither).


G

Originally posted by Freeman
Imagine theres Jesus' grand son / daughter living somewhere. How could one check and confirm their identity?

You couldn't.

After 2,000 years, the genetic material would be so dilute that it couldn't be detected. In fact, after 2,000 years, the chances are (that if jesus had children), as many as 100,000 people could be descendants of Jesus.

If i said that one found out identity of Jesus's grand son, how can you confirm it?

Well, I'd start with the original records in the original language. In other words, not a reprort in a book that these mansucripts exist... I would insist on seeing the real manuscripts and evidence from libraries and writings of other people of that time and immediately after that these manuscripts were authentic.

So, a "record in a temple in Armana"... I would check to see when the temple was built, how old the records are, who the archivist is, who's had access to the documents, what language the documents are in... and then I'd ask for photos and verify the language and ask scholars to date the language and the style.

Then I'd ask for secondary sources to authenticate these documents and to make sure that it was the correct "Jesus" (Yeshua, I believe, is the correct spelling) and not one of several dozen people in that area who were named "Yeshua" in that period of 100 years or so.

And two, what would be the potential benefits for that person in the society? Would he / she become big time celebrity?

People have tried this. It used to be a cause for celebrity and a quick death. Now it's a cause for a quick trip to the mental ward and drugs for the delusional.

Or sneering and laughter. Christians wouldn't believe (and there might be some issue about "antichrist" arising.) No other religions need or have or are interested in a descendant. And it'd cause everyone else around to look into their own geneaology and see how close their generational ties are with Jesus.

[edit on 29-8-2006 by Byrd]

Originally posted by Essedarius
IF God exists and decided to become incarnate, that's important to everybody, don't you think?

Well, depends on their views of divinity. It might not be important to an athiest, because he doesn't believe it is a possibility. Heck, it might not be important to a devout Catholic, for whom faith alone might suffice and sustain. My initial comment was brief and vague, simply out of an attempt at inclusiveness of all belief structures.

Originally posted by Essedarius
When someone asks you what type of person you are, how do you answer? Do you say "I'm direct. I'm charasmatic. I have a good sense of humor" or do you say "I have size 9 feet. My hair is curly. I have blue eyes?"

The fact is, who we are has very little to do with our vessel. It has to do with our insight, our temperment, and our ambition. Now I don't know whether those traits are hardwired into our DNA or if they are a part of a soul that is somehow separate from our corporeal selves...but I do think that if the "spirit" that makes a body a person were the spirit of God, that you would not be just another human.

Personally, I see too much of my parents in who I am to be able to argue that a "spirit" cannot be handed down. I think that any descendent of Jesus would be a remarkable human being.

You're talking about 3 things here, physical being, individual consciousness and personality, and divinity, all of which, for the sake of arguement of course, we are postulating inhabited one being.

What I am suggesting is that these three things are seperate from one another, but would make up the being. For example, I am "Me". I have a physical form and a consciousnes of thought and distinct personality. These two things are seperate, but make "Me" who I am. I do not physically pass along my consciousness to my offspring, but I do pass along physical genetic material.

The divine being we are discussing was "God made as man", meaning that his physical form was no different than yours or mine or anyone elses. That, I believe, was the whole point, mortality, and specifically mortality in the form of a normal homo sapien. He would have a personality and a consciousness and to look at him, he would be just like any other person. The one notably unusual trait would be that inside the "everyday guy" exterior, there would be a consciousness and spirit that was not born of this Earth.

The body housed the spirit and mind, but as one doesn't pass along consciousness to offspring, neither would one pass along any trace of divinity. The body was Man, the Spirit & Mind were not.

Tthe various miracles attributed to this person, be they healing, transmutation, even the causing withering, blindness, or death if you read the Apocrypha, are not the result of any physical characteristic, even if the means of delivery appeared to be via physical touch. These actions are the work of the Spirit, not the Body, and could have been done anywhere, to anyone, at any distance, and at any time. Myself, I'd attribute some of the physicality to dramatic showmanship.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

"Which is why I don't think Jesus had children...because I don't believe that a child with divine pedigree spends their life hiding in France."


What did the book say about his lineage? That it was persecuted and hanuted by all kinds of bodies. So i would imagine that they needed to hide his lineage untill the time was right. When according to the book the time is right to come in the opne with this?

Didnt Brown said something about the secret society needed to guard this secret? I need to read the book again.

I need to get in touch with other interested people, maybe brown himself or some society. You lot are the first people i told this.