Finally an answer to EVERYTHING - Quantum Field Gravity - BRAIDS

Oh come on? It's observable so how can it not be there?

Who thinks that space is empty? Why are their taking part in this discussion?

From what I understand LQG theory is saying and the classic double slit experiment and Schrodinger's classic thought experiment of the cat in the box is that everything that is observable is just an illusion and nothing exist until its observed including space.

video.google.com...
www.lassp.cornell.edu...

Hi StellarX,

I understand your confusion, but English is not my first language so sorry if I'm being unclear.

What I'm trying to get at is that time is a dimension that allows "change" to take place. Without time, the universe will be frozen and not be able to change. Time is invisible and it is a dimension, just like space is invisible and constitutes the 3 dimensions. Although time exists, it does not mean it is physical.

Space and time are dimensions and they are not physical. These dimensions allow the physical to exist. Matter and energy are the physical components of the universe.

I'm confused about how Quantum Field Gravity could link the dimensions with the physical. Neon Haze, so you're saying that everything is made up of the fabric of space and time, including matter and energy, by braiding? The braiding of space and time creates matter and energy. What about the forces like electromagnetism and gravity?

Actually time can best be summed up like this.

Time is the rate of entropy in a closed system governed by velocity relative to the speed of light. The faster you go, the slower the rate of entropy becomes. This has been confirmed by many different experiments.

Space-time is the 4th dimension and it's ability to bend and twist within the presence of Gravitational fields as well as it's malleability depending upon velocity of an object lends me to believe that it is made of something. If space was made of nothing then Einsteins idea's have a major hole in them as he said gravity is caused by the bending and twisting of space. Can't you see the paradox there?

First off, let me say - Great thread Neon Haze, and thank you for starting it!!!

Originally posted by StellarX

While we might think that the vacuum of space has an absence of matter, this is not the case. Space itself is filled with dark matter/ether.

Who thinks that space is empty?

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before in this thread or not (I did read through the first few pages some time ago, but a few more pages have appeared since, which I have not gone through yet), but I think there is a strong link between "zero-point" energy theory and the braid theory.

"Zero-point" energy, ties in nicely with Braid theory, because it says there is more than just nothing in a complete vacuum.

In simplistic terms it has been said that there is enough energy in the volume the size of a coffee cup to boil away Earth’s oceans. - that’s one strong cup of coffee! For a while a lot of physics thought that concept was too hard to swallow. This vacuum energy is more widely accepted today.

source
wikipedia on zero point

As to why we would be oblivious to the presence of all this energy and the very fabric of space around us...

"The first thing to realize about the ether is its absolute continuity. A deep sea fish has probably no means of apprehending the existence of water; it is too uniformly immersed in it: and that is our condition in regard to the ether." Sir Oliver Lodge, Ether and Reality.

source

There is no doubt in my mind that "space" is not empty.

Originally posted by etshrtslr
From what I understand LQG theory is saying and the classic double slit experiment and Schrodinger's classic thought experiment of the cat in the box is that everything that is observable is just an illusion and nothing exist until its observed including space.

It's not so much a 'illusion' as it is a static 'snapshot' of objects that do not persist in time but recur in time in different. Nothing in this universe ( as far as my admittedly little knowledge on this topic goes) persist from one moment to the next in a unchanged form and the fact that it seems to is just the human mind imposing boundaries that does not really exist.

So I'm summary space and the universe exists independent of the observer and our view of reality is nothing but a series of sown together 'freeze frames' that results from imposing a observer and thus taking time out of the observation.

I hope my explanation, and the terminology employed, is not too much a insult to those who study this full time.

Good question/statement btw...

Stellar

Originally posted by Rx4556
Hi StellarX,

I understand your confusion, but English is not my first language so sorry if I'm being unclear.

I am not sure if language had much to do with the confusion.

What I'm trying to get at is that time is a dimension that allows "change" to take place. Without time, the universe will be frozen and not be able to change.

That's not what your first post seemed to be suggesting but we seem to be on the same page now... That being said a how could a universe come into being without a flow of time?

Time is invisible and it is a dimension,

Time is not observable but it's effects are....

just like space is invisible and constitutes the 3 dimensions.

Space is NOT invisble and very much observable if not to your naked eye...

Although time exists, it does not mean it is physical.

Something not being observable does not make it any less physical either... For time to be able to affect the universe it must be energetic... Where does zero point energy and vacuum energy comes from if not higher dimensions? Where is that energy 'stored if we are to believe that energy can not be created or destroyed?

Space and time are dimensions and they are not physical.

Space is very much physical! The effects of the passage of time is also very much physical!

These dimensions allow the physical to exist. Matter and energy are the physical components of the universe.

Matter and energy are the same thing and a distinction should not even be made...

I'm confused about how Quantum Field Gravity could link the dimensions with the physical. Neon Haze, so you're saying that everything is made up of the fabric of space and time, including matter and energy, by braiding? The braiding of space and time creates matter and energy. What about the forces like electromagnetism and gravity?

I would suggest that he merely stating that our physical existence and matter itself comes from the time dimension which can then be called the true store of the energy that fluxes in and out of observable space.

Stellar

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.
First off, let me say - Great thread Neon Haze, and thank you for starting it!!!

Agreed if with three less exclamation works worth of enthusiasm.

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before in this thread or not (I did read through the first few pages some time ago, but a few more pages have appeared since, which I have not gone through yet), but I think there is a strong link between "zero-point" energy theory and the braid theory.

If we at all ask where zero point energy 'comes from' that seems especially interesting a question.

"Zero-point" energy, ties in nicely with Braid theory, because it says there is more than just nothing in a complete vacuum.

There is no such thing as natural complete vacuum in this universe and while such mental constructs are interesting in theory ( i remember hearing that they can create them but that ain't very natural) they have little to do with observed reality.

In simplistic terms it has been said that there is enough energy in the volume the size of a coffee cup to boil away Earth’s oceans. - that’s one strong cup of coffee! For a while a lot of physics thought that concept was too hard to swallow. This vacuum energy is more widely accepted today.

source

No doubt that that is the case and we are already extracting energy freely from the active vacuum by means of every and all generators, and other dipole driven energy extractors, not converters as they want you to think, since the dawn of the electric age. Fossil fuels simply help to create the torque that separates the charges and thus creates the dipole from which energy freely flows into this dimension. If they did not create those generators to destroy the dipole just about as fast as it creates it ( by symmetrically re gauging it) 1 gram of coal can create a dipole that gates energy until it is destroyed by outside forces years or centuries later.

wikipedia on zero point

As to why we would be oblivious to the presence of all this energy and the very fabric of space around us...

Well anyone who studies this topic can't possibly be oblivious.

"The first thing to realize about the ether is its absolute continuity. A deep sea fish has probably no means of apprehending the existence of water; it is too uniformly immersed in it: and that is our condition in regard to the ether." Sir Oliver Lodge, Ether and Reality.

source

Out electrical scientist/engineers all assume a fluid ether ( even if they may not be aware that they are ) and if any of them tells you that they are not feel free to laugh at them if for no other reason than the fact that you are better informed on the nature of energy.

There is no doubt in my mind that "space" is not empty.

Or in mine....

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX

If we at all ask where zero point energy 'comes from' that seems especially interesting a question.

Wild speculation: If the braids were vibrating then that vibration itself would be a possibility. But what is the source of the vibrations ? I think that is the real question here. Perhaps, the very echoes of the big bang?

I have this mental picture of the entire universe juddering from the shock waves of the big bang (and perhaps from major events like super nova), like it was a big blob of jelly.

Has anyone considered the implications of this for big bang theory?

Further speculation: If the braids were all interconnected across the entire "universe" (is that still even the appropriate term to use?!), then, it follows that to dampen these vibrations would be very hard indeed (for all intents, impossible). That would suggest limitless or almost limitless power

Originally posted by StellarX
There is no such thing as natural complete vacuum in this universe and while such mental constructs are interesting in theory ( i remember hearing that they can create them but that ain't very natural) they have little to do with observed reality.

I never said there was such a thing in nature, but in order to test such a theory, I'm guessing you would probably want to fabricate one, so that you could rule out anything else being the source of the energy produced.

Originally posted by StellarX
1 gram of coal can create a dipole that gates energy until it is destroyed by outside forces years or centuries later.

That is true, but we yet have to find a way to efficiently extract that power - right now, with the technologies that scientists are allowed to play around with publicly, it takes more energy going in, than you get coming out. Since no one has managed to make cold fusion work in a scientifically repeatable demonstration (to my knowledge), I think we should look more closely at zero-point as a sustainable, 100% non polluting form of energy, but thats just my opinion!

Originally posted by StellarX
Well anyone who studies this topic can't possibly be oblivious.

True... for probably 90% of thepeople visiting ATS (and perhaps like minded sites on the internet) I do get the impression though, that it is not a concept widely known by the general public, and that with this being such an important piece of the puzzle, it does kind of smack as a concerted effort by someone to... well, I think we all know what became of Nikola Tesla's work after he died...

Originally posted by StellarX
Out electrical scientist/engineers all assume a fluid ether ( even if they may not be aware that they are ) and if any of them tells you that they are not feel free to laugh at them if for no other reason than the fact that you are better informed on the nature of energy.

Well the quote was only an analogy, but a good one in all other respects other than it suggests a fluid ether... but then who knows... it may also turn out to have some fluid properties as well. Stranger things have been known! Not long ago as I recall, there was a small string of breakthroughs connected with the field of "super-fluids" and other curious related semi-fluid like states of matter. Perhaps these might bear clues as to the true nature of the ether.

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.
Wild speculation: If the braids were vibrating then that vibration itself would be a possibility. But what is the source of the vibrations ? I think that is the real question here. Perhaps, the very echoes of the big bang?

Perhaps but there is enough issues with the big bang theory itself i could, but wont, raise here.

I have this mental picture of the entire universe juddering from the shock waves of the big bang (and perhaps from major events like super nova), like it was a big blob of jelly.

The universe can not very well react to something that is the universe but i hope that does affect those pictures of yours.

Has anyone considered the implications of this for big bang theory?

So much speculation abounds that i am sure someone somewhere is considering the implications.

Further speculation: If the braids were all interconnected across the entire "universe" (is that still even the appropriate term to use?!), then, it follows that to dampen these vibrations would be very hard indeed (for all intents, impossible). That would suggest limitless or almost limitless power

In quantum mechanics, certain quantum effects may be transmitted at speeds greater than c (indeed, action at a distance has long been perceived by some as a problem with quantum mechanics: see EPR paradox, interpretations of quantum mechanics). For example, the quantum states of two particles can be entangled, so the state of one particle fixes the state of the other particle (say, one must have spin +½ and the other must have spin −½). Until the particles are observed, they exist in a superposition of two quantum states, (+½, −½) and (−½, +½). If the particles are separated and one of them is observed to determine its quantum state then the quantum state of the second particle is determined automatically. If, as in some interpretations of quantum mechanics, one presumes that the information about the quantum state is local to one particle, then one must conclude that second particle takes up its quantum state instantaneously, as soon as the first observation is carried out. However, it is impossible to control which quantum state the first particle will take on when it is observed, so no information can be transmitted in this manner. The laws of physics also appear to prevent information from being transferred through more clever ways and this has led to the formulation of rules such as the no-cloning theorem and the no-communication theorem.

en.wikipedia.org...

So it seems that things are already accepted to be rather iterconnected despite the assumed restrictions imposed by the speed of light...

I never said there was such a thing in nature,

Well if it seemed like i assume as much for you i apologise.....

but in order to test such a theory, I'm guessing you would probably want to fabricate one, so that you could rule out anything else being the source of the energy produced.

Why a 'perfect' vacuum would be able to 'generate' energy energy more effectively , if at all, than a regular vacuum i must wonder.

That is true, but we yet have to find a way to efficiently extract that power - right now, with the technologies that scientists are allowed to play around with publicly, it takes more energy going in, than you get coming out.

I think you summed it up well by making it clear that there is fast difference between public knowledge and what some scientist and inventors know and have constructed in the past.

Bearden

USPO

meg patent

www.rexresearch.com...

peswiki.com...:MEG

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USPO Hubbard

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www.rexresearch.com... Houston

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Meyers

'Power from the Air' Patent Found!

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www.rexresearch.com... No us patent

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Tesla's patent for an "Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy," number 685,957

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958,829, Method and Apparatus for Producing High Frequency Oscillating Currents. J. Filed Jan. 20, 1910.

Since no one has managed to make cold fusion work in a scientifically repeatable demonstration (to my knowledge), I think we should look more closely at zero-point as a sustainable, 100% non polluting form of energy, but thats just my opinion!

They don't always get the desired result but they have shown that the LENR are in fact a repeatable and observable reality. I think the volume of evidence in favour LERN is quite overwhelming and to deny it's existence is no longer something that can be done by anyone who holds a degree in any field as English itself will serve you well enough.

www.wired.com...

www.csmonitor.com...

Show that even the regular press is picking up on this ever so slowly.

True... for probably 90% of thepeople visiting ATS (and perhaps like minded sites on the internet) I do get the impression though, that it is not a concept widely known by the general public, and that with this being such an important piece of the puzzle, it does kind of smack as a concerted effort by someone to... well, I think we all know what became of Nikola Tesla's work after he died...

It is surely suprising how such breaktroughs can be hidden from the general public for so very long

Well the quote was only an analogy, but a good one in all other respects other than it suggests a fluid ether... but then who knows... it may also turn out to have some fluid properties as well. Stranger things have been known!

Well i just thought to state that a fluid ether is already assumed by the descriptions and theories we curently employ in these fields.

Not long ago as I recall, there was a small string of breakthroughs connected with the field of "super-fluids" and other curious related semi-fluid like states of matter. Perhaps these might bear clues as to the true nature of the ether.

God knows i would probably need a few degress ( any would be good as start) to be able to comment on that.

Stellar

[edit on 14-3-2007 by StellarX]

If I correctly understand - QLG states that it is 'background independence'.
My question is: Quantum Theory works on fields and fields exsist on a fixed background metric, so is' background independence' (non fixed metric) compromised?

QLG is claiming unifying quantum mehanic and general relativity - but isn't definition of gravitation bending of space and time, which is obviously not the same as being a field INSIDE space and time?

Thank you!



Those knots - it is astonishing , how ancient wisdom of Sumer could come with this!

Look at Inanna ~ Queen of Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld:




"On either side of her cult statue shown above is the ring-post, also known as Inanna's knot. This was a sacred symbol of Inanna, associated exclusively with her. It represents a door-post made from a bundle of reeds, the upper ends, bent into a loop to hold a cross-pole.".....and she dance under Stars! ")


[edit on 14-3-2007 by blue bird]

Neon, how does this theoretic New State of Matter fit into QLG? Does it conflict or confirm? The theory itself sounds a whole lot different actually.

Originally posted by StellarX
God knows i would probably need a few degress ( any would be good as start) to be able to comment on that.

If you can undestand unified theory, I'm sure you could also get your head around super-fluids

Keep an eye out for them, as I'm sure they will play an important part in the technology of the future, and our understanding of what's around us..

Superfluids are also used in high-precision devices, such as gyroscopes, which allow the measurement of some theoretically predicted gravitational effects (for an example see the Gravity Probe B article).

Recently, superfluids have been used to trap and slow the speed of light. In an experiment, performed by Lene Hau, light was passed through a superfluid and found to be slowed to 17 meters per second (normally ~ 300,000,000 meters per second).

Physicists have recently been able to create a Fermionic condensate from pairs of ultra-cold fermionic atoms. Under certain conditions, fermion pairs form diatomic molecules and undergo Bose–Einstein condensation. At the other limit, the fermions (most notably superconducting electrons) form Cooper pairs which also exhibit superfluidity. This recent work with ultra-cold atomic gases has allowed scientists to study the region in between these two extremes, known as the BEC-BCS crossover.

Additionally, supersolids might have also been discovered, in 2004, by physicists at Penn State University. When helium-4 is cooled, below about 200 mK under high pressures, a fraction (~1%) of the solid appears to become superfluid

source

Originally posted by sardion2000
Neon, how does this theoretic New State of Matter fit into QLG? Does it conflict or confirm? The theory itself sounds a whole lot different actually.

This does reinforces the concept of LQG as it confirms that light is a consequence of braid wave frequency and not actually a particle in the classical sense.

Though Wren subscribes to string theory and so his works have to be taken with this in mind.

I am not suggesting M-theory and the people that work on it are wrong to do so. After all LQG is a derivative of M-theory. Though when attempting to understand the overall nature of reality M-theory is like attempting to study the nature of waves in the ocean by only observing the physics of the actual waves and not the overall currents and forces that cause them.

But it's an excellent find and I'm happy to know that you can relate this work to LQG. It is the first time we have any direct data that correlates to the concept of light in LQG.

I have added a link to the paper on your thread and will bring the subject up with a few friends and colleges that lean more to M-theory.

C.H.U.D. is absolutely correct. Superfluids are going to be very big over the next few years. The applications are almost endless with super efficient conductivity that could revolutionise the utilities / travel / manufacturing and computing sectors.

If you want to learn more about the properties of Superfluids here is a great place for a simple overview.

Properties of Superfluids

All the best,

NeoN HaZe.

Originally posted by Neon Haze


Then loop Quantum gravity could explain one of the strangest and weirdest mysteries of quantum mechanics... quantum entanglement. You see there is no real distance when talking about prions and braids, it is possible that the connections could be right next to each other at a quantum level but from our perspective they are light years apart....

Now again that’s a scary thought.... because the if there is no distance between anything then we are 1.

Anyone following me??



[edit on 15-8-2006 by Neon Haze]

Thank you...science can finally explain a 'religious view' (if you can call it that), I have. I For some reason many religions and humans want to seperate God from matter or thought. This CANNOT be true. What I refer to as God in this piece is that one thing I will try to further explain. Do not think I am refering to Christianity with the use of that word or that I am Christian myself. I lean more towards Islam if any. I give praise, wether 'it' accepts my praise or not regardless, to that 'thing' which I call God. I mean it is all, and for that I am greatful to be part of. Sooo...



1.) Everything ever in every posibility comes down to a yes or no answer ("a 1 or 0"). Physics has problems with this because metaphysically speaking a negative charge combined with a positive charge of equal energy becomes netural. In my view it is possible that the same thing can happen but the product is still negative or positive which 'cant' happen. Infinite possibilities means science will be defied in some form of reality somewhere, sometime. Regardless of this happening we are still one thing, a 'substance' capable of infinite possibilities.

2.)Moving on...I have come to see that many religions who believe in a God seperate their God from other God(s). Another tendency I find is that God is sperate from man and matter. This can not be. Dispite my infinite possibilities 'rule', which I can already see people saying "well then nothing real" or "then your oppinion cant be true if you say theirs only one thing but its possible that theirs not one thing or their is two things.", I believe theirs is only one. Yes my first 'rule' allows all other rules of anything to be false but applying it to our understanding of God it is a must to say. That which created all, is all. Whatever it, God, is to be is all their is. This means God is every atom and I use atom as the term or the 'substance' of whatever the substance turns out to be. Therefore, the God we kill for is the human(atomically composed) we destroy for that God. This also means rocks, water, toast, and everything composed of matter (and more), is God. Some will say...DUH...but oddly religions and religious people do not accept this. We are tied to deeply into human emotions to see others as universally equal. Even thoes emotions and thoughts are 'matter' which God is.

Though this may not cover my thoughts fully on this subject I would like user insight and questions for me to try and clairify what I mean. Unfortinuatly I do not have PhD command of words or the understanding of science on Quantum levels just yet. Hopefully as I grow I can contribute better here and to the world around me but I'm still young


See all later tonight and sorry if my toughts do not follow as I intended. Further clairification will come if anyone ask or responds.




Awesome thread Neon, also thanks to all contributing.

[edit on 16-3-2007 by Watchful1]

Please show me a single .edu site which speaks of your quantum braids.

I can only find two, one of which is from 2006.

google ---> "quantum braid" site:sciencedaily.com

Your search - "quantum braid" site:sciencedaily.com - did not match any documents.

If it's not at science daily, I don't trust it.

If you didn't know - sciencedaily.com is a MASSIVE science news website which google has track 256,000 pages and yahoo has tracked almost 500,000.

They ALWAYS feature ANY breaking science news and get their reports directly from the universities / research laboratories press release.

Originally posted by NoobieDoobieDo
Please show me a single .edu site which speaks of your quantum braids.

Sure.. try this.

International Loop Quantum Gravity Seminar

Among the groups that participate live are PennState, Perimeter Institute, Marseille, AEI-Potsdam, Utrecht, UNAM-Mexico, FUW-Poland, CSIC-Madrid, UDELAR, Uruguay, UWO-Canada, UNB-Canada, Umass Dartmouth, Hamilton College, LSU.

Google ---> "quantum braid" site:sciencedaily.com

Your search - "quantum braid" site:sciencedaily.com - did not match any documents.

Well you didn't search very deeply did you??

Using your search criteria in Google came up with this.

"Quantum Braid"

Even better still try searching Google for "loop quantum gravity"

"Loop Quantum Gravity"

If it's not at science daily, I don't trust it.

Funny that since I never frequent that site, I find it quite shallow. The search facility doesn't even support Boolean searches.

I get over 1000 results returned from a search Science Daily: Loop Quantum Gravity

The very first article does mention Loop Quantum Gravity, so they at least got one thing right....

Penn State Researchers Look Beyond The Birth Of The Universe

They ALWAYS feature ANY breaking science news and get their reports directly from the universities / research laboratories press release.

Well if that were true then there WOULD be a DIRECT reference to LQG. If there is, then it maybe hidden somewhere within the 1000 references that have either loop, quantum, or gravity in them.

If I may offer some advice. The following sources are excellent and trusted.

New Scientist

Nature

Cornell University Library - arXiv.org

You may find this site of interest too.

Einstein-Online

Hope that is enough info for you.

all the best,

NeoN HaZe.

[edit on 16-3-2007 by Neon Haze]

Here is the best source.

Google Scholar

[edit on 16-3-2007 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by sardion2000
Here is the best source.

Google Scholar

[edit on 16-3-2007 by sardion2000]

Awesome Sardion! I had no idea that existed until just now.

Goes to show that there is always something more to learn.

all the best,

NeoN HaZe.

Thanks for all the new information (new to me) Google Scholar, and the rexresearch sites are great finds.

wow thanks for posting this paper. I don't understand it fully, but the basics of it are very interesting. I'm connected physically to all of you right now!

This 'material' that space time and matter is made out of gives a new meaning to the ripple effect in relation to time travel . It seems like this fabric 'ripples' when a change occures.

[edit on 24-4-2007 by curiousbeliever]