God VS Free Will

Ok, theory:

If God exists, and God is all powerful, then God knows everything and God knows everything that will happen in the future. If this is true then God obviously knows what decisions you're going to make, meaning free will no longer exists.

So if you believe in God you don't believe in free will.

I believe we are (for the most part) following a path which is determined by a variety of factors: culture, parents, genes, religion, etc. Aliens/beings advanced enough looking upon our planet might very well be able to determine the routes we'll take in life. An extremely powerful computer of some sort would be required, but it's certainly possible.

However, considering the existance of premonitions... that means that we CAN sometimes alter our future if we make an effort (and I have in very minor circumstances). Though our destiny likely remains the same.

To sum up what I'm saying: Free-will = being able to see/sense future events and the ability to change them.

So I believe free-will exists in a small way, but I also believe in god. Notice however that I don't capitalize the word "god" no more than I would capitalize the words energy, matter, or time. I consider god to be a universal conciuosness of sorts... not the old Christian idea of a bearded old man with a hammer in his hand judging the sinners to eternal fire and the saints to heaven.

So we can alter our destiny like the Cyclops in Krull? He stayed back to meet his fate but he prevailed, PREVAILED!!!! only to be crushed by sliding stone doors...


If God knows all this then whats the point of Sin?

wouldnt that all fall into predestined fate?


btw the cyclops gave up one of their eyes(so i guess before then they were just really tall humanoids) to see into the future according to krull heh, and uhh yeah the trick is they can only see their death, so they got robbed in Krull. lol




ps: yes i realise krull is a movie, IF NOT THE BEST!

If your going to look at it with one eye closed, then sure maybe that quote is plausible.

Say God does exist, he can see the future and knows exactly whats going to happen. That does not take free will away from the individual. God is not making the choices for anyone, he simply knows the choice we will make and the consequences that will result.

Personally I don't accept creation. However, I like to think there is something after this life time for me. This belief does allow me to sleep better at night.

And I do believe God could coincide with Free Will.

[edit on 26-5-2006 by chissler]

But surely if someone know's what choice we are going to make it isn't free will because it is already determined that we are going to choice which ever path.

I don't really see it that way, phixion. Why should fore-knowledge negate free will? We make the choices. If God can see the choices we make, it doesn't mean that free will is gone. I know for an absolute fact that you're going to use the bathroom some time in the next few hours. Does that limit your free will?

Yes you do know for absolute fact that I'm going to use the bathroom in the next few hours, but you don't know what exact time I'm going to stand up, how many steps i'm going to take, how long i'm going to be to the nearest 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second etc etc. If God is all knowing and already knows what path we are going to take then how can it be called free will? Surely it is more comparable to a path which we are following.

So there has to be a specific amount of fore-knowledge before it goes from just knowing to "Negation of free will"? God may know our destiny, but God didn't design it. We did.

I dunno. I'm pretty sure you're going to the bathroom within the next few hours. I've therefore damned you onto the path of destiny that will lead you to the bathroom.
YOU CANNOT ESCAPE! I CONTROL YOUR FUTURE NOW!

[edit on 27-5-2006 by babloyi]

Sorry. Double post.

[edit on 27-5-2006 by babloyi]

Originally posted by phixion
Ok, theory:

If God exists, and God is all powerful, then God knows everything and God knows everything that will happen in the future. If this is true then God obviously knows what decisions you're going to make, meaning free will no longer exists.

From God's perspective (in this particular conception of God), it does not. From your own perspective, it still does. Determinism or indeterminacy of events depends on perspective. One does not even need to introduce the concept of omniscience to see this.

Consider the case of a tennis match that I am playing, with the plans to call my sister about it after it's over. Until I make the phone call, my sister does not know who won the match. Between the time when the match is over and when I make the phone call, I know how the match came out and my sister does not. During that interval, the outcome of the match has become determined from my perspective, but remains indeterminate from my sister's.

Free will means that our choices are indeterminate from our own perspective. It doesn't matter if some omniscient being knows what choice I am going to make, as long as I experience the choice as freely made.

Also, in most theologies that feature an omniscient God, that God is also eternal, i.e., outside time, with an experience of events that is all-at-once rather than sequential. So the whole concept of knowing something that will happen in the future is not applicable; for God, there is no such thing as "the future." God does not predict what I will do, rather, He observes me doing it in His own unbounded now. To watch someone do something is hardly to make them do it.

Man is given freewill to do as he pleases by the Lord God.

He does not know what you will do, for you were given will.

But, if we were to have eternal life at this day, I think we would all agree, that we would want a way out. Oppression and taxation, starvation and hunger, not wrought of god, but wrought of greed.

Before, you get eternal life, you need to find the way, that will work best for man in a world of forever. A world of happiness and giving, and not of greed an oppression.

I think you can agree, that you can write at will, what you wish here, and you can change your mind at a moments notice. But one thing is for sure, that until man figures out the path, we all will die. We will pass into a void of unknown. To be reborn again to learn possibly? And maybe, just maybe, the one thing that God knows, is that man is greedy, and that money and greed and power seem to win out over and over again. He doesnt know what you will do, but he knows what we will ultimately do. He wants us to change. Think about it...why..oh why would he send his son to teach us. For he must have seen, that we may be on a road to nowhere. Not you, but all of us.

We know that a particular team won a game, but we cant name all of the players..think of it like that.

Peace

[edit on 29-5-2006 by HIFIGUY]

According to at least 2 experiments i've read about; information is comming from the future to the present/past. In a variation of the double slit experiment, when one slit was closed, an "echo wave" from the future traveling back met the originating wave at the open slit, but not the closed slit; because it knew which slit was going to be closed. Also an experiment in collecting photons from a solar burst, or something like that, found some particles would reach Earth before the event had even happened. Just the other day an experiment with lasers split the beam into 2 and one beam went so fast it was at the end before it was at the beginning, and it traveled backwards from the end.

Its possible for information from the future to travel backwards in time. (probably on another dimension of time) So that means that the future knows whats gonna happen. Which means every decision you will make, you have already made. Which means you do have free will, but you have already used it to determine your life, or possibly your entire existance many lives from now until the end of time.

It seems like you dont have free will, but its like pressing rewind on your life and living it from an hour ago. All your decisions have already been made for you, and you're the one who made them.

(Think of that scene in the Matrix2 where the Oracle tells Neo that hes not here to make a decision, he has already made it. He is here to understand why he made it.)

Well said ViolatoR! We do have free will, we just choose what happens before we come here.

What if however, we are given the ability to see a future event and choose to change it? Maybe this would only be possible on a small level where the destiny of others isn't effected, but it's something to think about.

This is my current understanding, though it is naturally subject to change as I don't have all the answers.

God's really smart. You know that Stephen Hawking guy? Smart guy, right? Blubbering idiot compared to God. Actually beyond that, it would be as an electron (zero point singularity with charge but no size) compared to the universe.

What I believe, and again, I could very easily be wrong, God has a path set for each of us through our lives. He wants to direct us down this path, as it would be best for us, the world, and to glorify Him. However, He also gave us free will. Being so smart, God saw from the instant of creation what path He wanted every human being to take from the beginning to the end. He also recognized that we could go astray because He granted us free will. Every single decision we make, God knows what He would like us to do, but also knows every path we could take. He knows every path that you could take from each decision you could have taken the moment before as well, and so on and so forth. Through every path we take, He has a path He would like us to take, but we can still go astray. He knows all, including what has not and never will happen because of our free will.

Hope that made sense

I think that the path You+God sets is important in your souls spiritual awakening, and so on and so forth. And this is why suicide and murder are so terrible. Unless those events are part of your path...

I read about past life regression somewhere, maybe in "Holographic universe" or in "Closer to the light" which is about near-death experiences. Anyways some people can be regressed before their last life to many lives before until they all start looking the same ("caveman" era). And between these lives theres a place where they plan their next life. They describe it like a giant clock or machine and each event they plan fits into the whole mechanism. So this one woman during a session, found out that the rape she suffered was actually planned by her! It was part of her plan to use experiences to shape her soul. Im not sure what lesson she was trying to learn by getting raped, but she found out that is was her choice. Her free will. This realization helped her out psychologically, I think.

Everybody dies, so we probably plan our deaths if these past life regressions are correct. Also 'souls' before life plan to meet other souls they met in previous lives. Maybe your mother was actually your best friend from school 50 years ago.

So the next time something bad or good happens, remember that it only happened because every event, every choice you ever made lead you down the path towards that specific event. And the event it's self may have been planned by you.

You can't claim that God knows everything past, present and furture.

These periods are for our use.

Time itself is a created thing. Its doesn't exist for God.

For God there is no past, present or future.

Originally posted by Kruel
I believe we are (for the most part) following a path which is determined by a variety of factors: culture, parents, genes, religion, etc. Aliens/beings advanced enough looking upon our planet might very well be able to determine the routes we'll take in life. An extremely powerful computer of some sort would be required, but it's certainly possible.

However, considering the existance of premonitions... that means that we CAN sometimes alter our future if we make an effort (and I have in very minor circumstances). Though our destiny likely remains the same.

To sum up what I'm saying: Free-will = being able to see/sense future events and the ability to change them.

So I believe free-will exists in a small way, but I also believe in god. Notice however that I don't capitalize the word "god" no more than I would capitalize the words energy, matter, or time. I consider god to be a universal conciuosness of sorts... not the old Christian idea of a bearded old man with a hammer in his hand judging the sinners to eternal fire and the saints to heaven.

Love that avatar !...I wonder if Nsa's ECHELON can use governing mechanics to determine the outcome of our lives !!! not sure about that...but I agree it can be possible. God is light, energy, trapped energy (matter) and time. I would love to discuss quantum physics with you sometime. Time is sometimes veiwed by me to be some sort of 4D body. The body of the infinite source of intelligence.

However, my take on this topic is that we all have the choice to choose, and the accumulation of our decisions can lead us to Heaven or Hell depending on our choices. Critical choices have a bigger impact on destiny of course, while other small ones can still add up and lead to your downfall.

[edit on 7/2/2006 by StreetCorner Philosopher]

The More I come to understand God, the more I understand that I really know nothing.

Parcicles that return before they were sent? lol?
Decisions made before we are alive?

Doesnt Christ says there is rejoicing by the Angels in Heaven when a single person repents?

Did Christ come here to understand why he made the choice that he did?

God knows we dont repent but sends us back hoping we will?

Then why would Christ even come back to save the sinners? He comes back to save us..but in the end, one is left standing, and the other one is taken?

The concept of predestiny goes against the teachings of Christ from the standpoint that he wants us to change, which means we have the ability too, which means the outcome is up to us in terms of our ways.

Heres a Quote by Christ....

14 "The secret of nature is in the hands of God. For the world, before it appeared, existed in the depth of the divine thought; it became material and visible by the will of the Most High.

15 "When you address yourselves to him, become again as children; for you know neither the past, the present, nor the future, and God is the Master of all time."

Peace...


[edit on 14-1-2007 by HIFIGUY]