end to the mason debate...perhaps

Here is the deal basically.

I have mentioned this on other threads, but I, like many others, have close relatives that are at the top of the masonic ranks...and they are not spitting flames of fire.

In fact they hold no great secret, or none that is overwhelmingly important. (i.e. the keys to eternal life, though science has this.)

But no matter what anyone says, people come with their preconceived view points. But of course they do.
We all have done this, whether it be about our views of politics, religion, masons, etc.

If there is a grand conspiracy, then its an elect few and no one else knows about it, so calling all of masonry evil is kind of rough.

Want to find the answers? I wonder if the lodge brothers would be open to taking new members who were curious. Sign up, and see for yourself whats happening instead of bashing that which you really dont know from first hand experience. This would end most of the conspiracies...but then you would have the people in the lodge conspiring that the next level is the level that reveals dark secrets, etc., etc.

So maybe there is no end to the debate.

Gods Peace

dalen

where is the end? is it near?

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 8-4-2006 by AgentSmith]

*Warnings issued for extreme rudeness and lack of common respect in 2 U2Us*

[edit on 9-4-2006 by AgentSmith]

dalen,

i believe that masons who subscribe to the esoteric side of masonry are absolutely held captivated (chained if you like) by the promise of more light being revealed to them as they progress through the degrees, They seem to beleive that there is some kind of great secret knowledge that they can attain by climbing up the masonic ladder. The masonic myths of hiram and enochs pillars even elude to such secret knowledge that is supposedly in the possesion of the freemason fraternity. Its a lie that is made to look attractive by telling people that if you dont get its meaning youre not adept enough to handle such light giving knowledge!!

nimrods son, i think you should take his advice and sign up. you are dead wrong.

dalen was right about a lot of things. there is no vast conspiracy. maybe there was hundreds of years ago.. but not today. george bush isnt a mason.

masonry takes years to understand. if you disagree its probably because you dont know.

the debate will never end because there will always be people who want to argue.

what type of secret could masons hold that would make them kill you if you tell?
nobody really believes anything anymore.
all have lost their way, just like its been said.
even masons are blind now.
there is no real reason to join anymore.
it's not the end of the world.
it's only the end of reality.

Whats the connection between the highest Masons and Illuminati? Masons are always talking about gaining "light", why not refer to it as knowledge instead? They only make themselves seem suspect because illuminati is a form of the word illuminate which means "to shed light upon; clarify". And illuminant means "something that gives light."

It is referred to variously as light, knowledge, wisdom and many other terms.

Knowledge has been referred to as "light" for much longer than either the Freemasons or Illuminati have been in existence.

As for the connection between Freemasonry and the Illuminati, well... do the Illuminati even exist anymore? Is there a single shred of evidence to support their existence as a powerful shadowy organisation operating behind the scenes? I think not, although I would love to be proven wrong.

Originally posted by ARIST0CRAT
nimrods son, i think you should take his advice and sign up. you are dead wrong.

dalen was right about a lot of things. there is no vast conspiracy. maybe there was hundreds of years ago.. but not today. george bush isnt a mason.

masonry takes years to understand. if you disagree its probably because you dont know.

the debate will never end because there will always be people who want to argue.

well sir if I may, spare us the $thousands and countless hours of memorizing abstract arcana if it is so innocent then...

just tell us then why anybody would join up with you guys... is this some get rich quick scheme aka some infomercial like no-money down real estate?

Or is freemasonry like a velvet gloved example of the mob or a 'self-preservation' society?

Most masons say it is not a religion but anybody that has studied it would definitely say it has strong religious aspects without question.

You have to know one thing: I was recruited into Amway myself a long time ago and I can smell a scam a mile away.

Masonry is just an outsider secret society. The real evil secret society is the Illuminati. Even if your a 33rd Mason sometimes you still won't be able to get into the Illuminati.

And George Bush is a member of Skull and Bones which shares many aspects of Freemasonry but with more Occultism.

dAlen

Most every mason, past and present, joined out of curiosity. We are always taking in new members for that and other reasons. The only reason not to join is a mercenary ones, generly when men join to try and advance themselves either finacialy or politicly, it tends to backfire.

Great post by the way.

While I do enjoy reading the debates, and have had more than a few laughs at some of the arguments, I do wonder if there is anyway for the truth about masonry to be accepted. A closed mind is not receptave to any but it's own ideas.

Many times masons have posted offers to answer any and all questions on this board. Along with others, I've posted links to web site with the degrees written out. While I will not post the "secrets" myself, it does not violate my oath to direct someone to where it already exists. Once someone has read them for themselves I can and will try and answer any questions that may remain.

Unfortunately, there are some who will see consperiousys where non exist. Masonry's historic reluctance to answer it's critics is part of the problem. So I don't see the debat (?) stopping any time soon.

33° Mason, Aleister Crowley would definitely get some votes in the "most wicked man who ever lived contest" and is the clear cut favorite for the title of "The Father of Modern Satanism". Crowley's wicked life and his intimate association with Freemasonry are both well known.

Crowley himself was terribly decadent. A happily heroin-addicted, bisexual Satan worshiper, he asked people to call him "The Beast 666." Crowley believed that he was literally the antimessiah of the apocalypse.

During the first World War, Crowley transferred his activities to America. The press proclaimed him "the wickedest man in the world." He also spent time in Italy, but was expelled because Italian authorities accused his disciples of sacrificing human infants in occult rituals. According to one source, Crowley resided in the Abbey of Thelema near Cefalu Sicily, and revived ancient Dionysian ceremonies. During a 1921 ritual, he induced a he-goat to copulate with his mistress, then slit the animal's throat at the moment of orgasm.

WAS ALEISTER CROWLEY JUST A 'CLOSET' FREEMASON?

Aleister Crowley was very proud of all his accomplishments and connections. He bragged about all of the Masonic medals and insignia that he was entitled to wear.

This view was confirmed when The Arcane Schools of John Yarker came to me for review. I wrote to the author, who recognized my title to the 33° and conferred on me the grades of 95° Memphis and 90° Mizraim. It seemed as if I had somehow turned a tap. From this time on I lived in a perfect shower of diplomas, from Bucharest to Salt Lake City. I possess more exalted titles than I have ever been able to count. I am supposed to know more secret signs, tokens, passwords, grand words, grips, and so on, than I could actually learn in a dozen lives. An elephant would break down under the insignia I am entitled to wear.

Here we see 33° Aleister Crowley in all of his Masonic regalia:

PAST GRAND MASTER ALEISTER CROWLEY

FRATER SUPERIOR BAPHOMET XI°

CROWLEY'S DOCTRINE

We find in the next quotes, the 'doctrine' of Aleister Crowley from MAGICK in Theory and Practice, by The Master Therion (Aleister Crowley):

But the bloody sacrifice, though more dangerous, is more efficacious; and for nearly all purposes human sacrifice is the best.

The animal should therefore be killed within the Circle, or the Triangle, as the case may be, so that its energy cannot escape. An animal should be selected whose nature accords with that of the ceremony--thus, by sacrifcing a female lamb one would not obtain any appreciate quantity of the fierce energy useful to a Magician who was invoking Mars. In such acase a ram would be more suitable. And this ram should be virgin--the whole potential of its original total energy should not have been diminished in any way. For the highest spiritual working one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force. A male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim.

From The Book of the Law, by Aleister Crowley:

With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross......

There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

From SATANIC EXTRACTS, by Aleister Crowley:



The Oath of Fealty

I bind my blood in Satan's hands,

All this that lieth betwixt my hands

To thee, the Beast, and thy control,

I pledge me; body, mind, and soul.




Pledge

I swear to work my Work abhorred,

Careless of all but one reward,

The pleasure of the Devil our Lord



ALEISTER CROWLEY WAS AN INTERNATIONAL MASON

Crowley was truly an international Mason. He received his 33° in Mexico City and spoke of participating in Masonic rituals in the United States and also was involved in other rites of Freemasonry. Not only was Crowley a 33° Grand Inspector General of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, but he was also involved in other rites of Freemasonry that went even deeper into the occult. The Rite of Memphis contained Masonic rituals with a definite Egyptian flavor.

By the end of 1910, thanks to my relations with the Grand Hierophant 97° of the Rite of Memphis (a post held after his death by Dr. Gerard Encausse ['Papus'], Theodor Reuss ['Merlin'], and myself), I was now a sort of universal inspector-general of the various rites, charged with the secret mission of reporting on the possibility of reconstructing the entire edifice, which was universally recognized by all its more intelligent members as threatened with the gravest danger.

Even for a man like Crowley who was obsessed with the occult, the rituals of Freemasonry provided a profound occult thrill.

I supposed myself to have reached the summit of success when I restored the Secret Word of the Royal Arch. In this case, tradition had preserved the Word almost intact.

Were Aleister Crowley and his followers or perhaps a similar group capable of performing acts and rituals that are comparable to what are described by satanic ritual abuse survivors. The following quotes are from a book entitled, Secrets of the German Sex Magicians. This book talks about the ritual use of pain and attributes to Crowley the most perverted of practices such as bestiality and the ritual consumption of body fluids.

The ritual use of pain and agony as an access mode to trance and magical power does have its limits, though. For one thing, physical pain tends to dull the senses in the long run, so that stimuli have to be increased incessantly. This may quite easily lead to grave bodily harm, not to mention the fact that it can become downright addictive and lead to a kindled frenzy not very easily mastered.

Crowley, in fact, trod in his practice a path similar to that of the more materialistic authorities. Although he positively encouraged ejaculatory orgasm in his sex magic, he always made a point of consuming what he called the "elixir" afterwards. He understood this elixir to be the mixture of the sexual fluids of both partners or, in the masturbatory act, as just the semen. He entered very carefully in his the magical diaries a description of the elixir's consistency and taste, and he even recorded the prophecies which he deduced from these data.

And Crowley's practices go on to be even more disgusting.

Coprophagia, which means consumption of excrement, here also includes consumption of other secretions such as urine and sweat. It was ritually practiced from early times on the sympathetic-magic principle that the secretions of any entity contain part of its magis. Crowley, for example, occasionally offered his disciples in Cefalu the excretement of a goat. This frequently met with no small disapproval!

Crowley performed a similar ritual in his Sicilian Abbey of Thelema, during which his Scarlet Woman was to be mounted by a goat which would be beheaded during the climax.

There exists today a secret society that dedicates itself to carrying on the teachings of Aleister Crowley. This group is called the O.T.O.. The O.T.O. was founded earlier this century by high grade Austrian Freemason Karl Kellner and German Freemason Theodor Reuss. The O.T.O. became a major force in the occult world when Aleister Crowley became its leader.

Crowley learned ritual magic from the man who was renown as the master of his day, MacGregor Mathers. The pupil-student relationship soon turned into a bitter rivalry and resulted literally in a Black Magic war. When Mathers died in 1918 many of his friends were convinced that Crowley was responsible for his death. Mathers, also a Freemason, introduced Crowley to an occult organization called the "Golden Dawn" and helped Crowley along his dark walk on the Egyptian Masonic road.

Mathers and his wife Moina, the sister of the philosopher Henri Bergson, lived in Paris. (Mathers tried to convert Bergson to magic, but without success.) Their house was decorated as an Egyptian temple and they celebrated 'Egyptian Masses', invoking the goddess Isis. Mathers officiated in a long white robe, a metal belt engraved with the signs of the zodiac, bracelets round his wrists and ankles, and a leopard-skin slung across his shoulders. He was convinced that he was descended from the Scottish clan MacGregor and took to calling himself MacGregor Mathers, Chevalier MacGregor and Comte de Glenstrae. W. B. Yeats, whose magical name in the Golden Dawn was Daemon est Deus Inversus (The Devil is God Reversed), was a frequent visitor to the Mathers household in Paris.

One of the most talked about Satanic groups in recent years has been The Temple of Set headed by Michael Aquino.

The brand of Satanism that is practiced by Michael Aquino and the Temple of Set is thoroughly Egyptian. In the book, The Book of Coming Forth by Night (1985) Aquino describes what seems to be a call to start the Church of Satan and speaks in the first person as Set, the Egyptian Satan.

The Equinox has succumbed to my Solstice, and I, Set, am revealed in my Majesty....I am the ageless Intelligence of this Universe...and from my manifest semblance, which alone is not of Earth. Known as the Hebrew Satan, I chose to bring forth a Magus, according to the fashion of my Word. He was charged to form a Church of Satan, that I might easily touch the minds of men in this age they had cast for me.

The accusation of child abuse and molestation against Aquino was made in 1988 by Sandi Gallant of the San Francisco Police Department, thus placing another link between Egyptian style Satanism and Satanic Ritual Abuse. The accusations surfaced concerning the day care center at the Presidio military installation and were as follows:

Children said they were taken by day to private homes, including two on army property, where they had been sexually molested............

Other children talked about a "googoo" game in which they were urinated and defecated on by a "Mr. Gary".... Pencils were used to doodle on the skin and genitals of the children and were also inserted in a child anus.....

A gun was pointed at the head of another adult in front of the children......

There were five confirmed cases among the children of chlamydia, a sexually transmitted illness.

Although no formal charges were filed against Aquino, there were certainly some interesting twists to the case. His repeated claims of innocence to many were hollow cries. There are some similarities in the accusations against the day care center when compared to the recent disclosures of children that we have been in contact with.

It is not clear how long the army has known about Aquino's peculiar genus of satanism. But the San Francisco police have been exceptionally interested since about 1980. The interest crested in November 1987 when police raided a house where a three-year-old girl told police she had been molested by a sinister-looking man named "Mickey" who snapped pictures of her in the bathtub and sexually mistreated her in a room with black walls and a cross etched on the ceiling. The girl later spotted "Mickey" in the PX at the Presidio army base in San Francisco, where Aquino was stationed. The girl said she thought "Mickey" was Aquino. The girl also said she recognized Mrs. Aquino. Meanwhile, authorities had found evidence of ongoing child abuse at the Presidio day care center. A three-year-old had also been molested, and the cops turned up six cases of sexually transmitted infection in fifty-eight other charges at the center. A thirty-four-year-old civilian day-care worker at the Presidio facility, who was also a Southern Baptist minister was arrested. At first, the charges were dismissed. But subsequently, Hambright was indicted anew on twelve counts of sodomy, oral copulation, and lewd conduct. Hambright later died of AIDS.

There is certainly no shortage of testimonies by Masonic authorities as to the relationship of Freemasonry and the Mystery Religions. According to Joseph Fort Newton, Masonry is the "spiritual descendant" of the Mysteries. Joseph Fort Newton was a 33" Mason who served as Past Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of Iowa and Past Grand Prelate of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States. In his book, The Builders, he states:

Masonry stands in this tradition; and if we may not say that it is historically related to the great ancient orders, it is their spiritual descendant, and renders much the same ministry to our age which the Mysteries rendered to the olden world.

In his book, The Meaning of Masonry, W.L. Wilmshurst, the Past Provincial Grand Registrar (West Yorks) makes the following statement:

It remains with the Craft itself whether it shall enter upon its own heritage as a lineal successor of the ancient Mysteries and Wisdom--teaching, or whether, by failing so to do, it will undergo the inevitable fate of everything that is but a form from which its native spirit has departed.

The book, Freemasonry Its Hidden Meaning, by George H. Steinmetz, published by Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, calls the "teaching of the Mysteries, the true parent of Freemasonry" and states that Freemasonry is a descendent or reincarnation of the Mysteries.

It is entirely out of harmony with the profound teaching of the Mysteries, the true parent of Freemasonry.

If Freemasonry is the actual descendant or, if one prefers the term, reincarnation of the Mysteries, back of its "veil of allegory," then must be concealed a deeper truth than expounded in the various lectures of the degrees.

It is from this book, The Spirit of Masonry, by Foster Bailey, that we will take a quote concerning Masonry and the Mystery Religions. Bailey plainly says that Masonry is carrying on the work of the ancient Mystery schools.

Study of spiritual realities found in Masonry reveals that we have perpetuated and increasingly activated the essential principals of the ancient Mystery Schools which have existed from the very earliest times.

The Masonic authority, Albert Pike, also testifies to the relation of Freemasonry to the Mystery Religions.

The Mysteries, like the symbols of Masonry, were but an image of the eloquent analogies of Nature;......

Masonry, successor of the Mysteries, still follows the ancient manner of teaching. Her ceremonies are like the ancient mystic shows,--not the reading of an essay, but the opening of a problem, requiring research, and constituting philosophy the arch-expounder.

Freemason Albert Churchwood writes in his book about the connection between Freemasonry and the religion of Babylon:

But the secrets these operative Masons had were received from the Chaldean Magicians.

The next documentation, a Masonic oath, the OATH OF NIMROD, is also from Churchwood's book.

Oath of Nimrod

Apprentice Degree (1st).

I,...............................do , in the presence of El Shaddai and of this Worshipful Assembly of Free Masons, Rough Masons, Wallers, Slaters, Paviors, Plaisterers and Bricklayers, promise and declare that I will not at any time hereafter, by any act or circumstance whatsoever, directly or indirectly, write, print, cut, mark, publish, discover, reveal, or make known, any part or parts of the Trade secrets, privileges, or counsells of the Worshipful Fraternity or Fellowship of Free Masonry, which I may have known at any time, or at any time hereafter shall be made known unto me.

The penalty for breaking this great oath shall be the loss of my life.

That I shall be branded with the mark of the Traitor and slain according to ancient custom by being throtalled, that my body shall be buried in the rough sands of the sea a cable's length from the shore where the tide regularly ebbs and flows twice in the twenty-four hours, so that my soul shall have no rest by night or by day--

(Candidate Signs the O.B.)

Given under my hand and sealed with my lips, this day of 1913.

So help me El Shaddai and the holy contents of this book.

_____

The Masonic Lodge in Indiana makes no effort to hide its connection with the Mystery Religions. It openly boasts of its connection with the Ancient Mysteries. The Master Mason, a book authorized by the Grand Lodge F.& A.M. of Indiana and compiled by the Committee on Masonic Education, plainly shows the connection between Hiram Abiff and the Mystery Religions.

The idea that lies behind the Hiramic legend is as old as religious thinking among men. The same elements existed in the story of Osiris, which was celebrated by the Egyptians in their ancient temples; the old Persians told it concerning Mithras, their hero god. In Syria, the Dionysian Mysteries had the very same elements in the story of Dionysius: for the Romans, Bacchus was the god who died and lived again. There is also the story of Tammuz, older than any of these. These are collectively referred to as the ancient mysteries. They were celebrated by secret societies, much like ours, with allegorical ceremonies, during which the initiates were advanced from one degree to another in these old societies. Read these old stories for yourself and marvel how men in all ages have taught the same great truths in the same effective way.

The book, The Master Mason, quoted above challenges the Freemason to read the stories of these Old Mystery Religions to see how they teach the same "great truths" as Freemasonry. The truth is: the Mystery Religions were the enemies of the church in New Testament times; they were pagan and Satanic, loaded with rituals that included sexual perversion and even human sacrifice.

In the previous quote, the Indiana lodge proudly states that Hiram Abiff had a direct relationship to Tammuz, which was clearly denounced as an abomination by the Old Testament prophets.

13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.

14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

Ezekiel 8:13-14 KJV

We have seen how the passage in Ezekiel condemned this type of rite as an abomination to the Lord. We have read how the Indiana lodge knows the connection of Hiram Abiff and Tammuz; however, we have met many Freemasons, claiming to be Christians, who proudly defend their membership in the Masonic Lodge. The idea of such statements is staggering!

Other Masonic authors also brag about the connection between Freemasonry and the Ancient Mysteries, the Ancient Wisdom, and the Occult, etc. Henry C. Clausen, 33° Sovereign Grand Commander says in his book, Your Amazing Mystic Powers:

A new day is dawning for Freemasonry. From the insufficiencies of modern theology, the hopelessness of materialism, and the sterility of academic philosophy, men are turning to those eternal truths perpetuated in the arcana of the ancient mysteries.

Mason S. R. Parchment states in his book, Ancient Operative Masonry:

The hierophants of the universal science and sublime philosophy taught in the Great Mysteries of Egypt, India, Persia, Chaldea and other nations of antiquity, revealed certain secrets pertaining to the finer forces of nature to such candidates as were worthy and well qualified. These faithful ones were also instructed in the doctrine of universal Brotherhood, and finally initiated into the "I am that I am" consciousness. These ideals are the landmarks, traditions and glyphics of Ancient Operative Freemasonry--nothing more.

Mason R. Swinburne Clymer, M. D., says in the introduction of his book, The Mysticism of Masonry:

There are indeed many reasons why the present volume should be generously circulated among all classes of students of the Occult and Mystic, especially the members of the Masonic bodies.

The vast majority of Masons smile with derision when the term "Occult Science" is used in connection with the Mysteries but, despite this, if it had not been for the Occult Fraternities, Masonry could not have existed.

It is the duty of every sincere Mason who is interested in the spirit of the teachings of his Order, carefully to study the philosophy of the masters who have reconstructed the Ancient Wisdom to suit his needs, and having done so, to guide his actions in all the affairs of life so as to be prepared for his entrance into the Great Lodge hall where he must give an account of all his deeds and in return receive his "Mark."

And also from the book:

All Masonry of the past dealt largely with the ethics and symbolism of the Ancient Mysteries. If the Masons of the present age will but seek for the spirit of the symbolism upon which the degrees are based, the grandest achievements in the knowledge and reconstruction will be possible and the mysteries concealed in the Greater Mysteries of Antiquity will be recovered to them.

Another Masonic author J. D. Buck 32° makes these statements in his introduction of his book, Symbolism or Mystic Masonry:

Freemasonry is modeled on the plan of the Ancient Mysteries, with their glyphics and allegories, and this is no mere coincidence; the parallels are too closely drawn.

In his book, A Bridge to Light, published by the Supreme Council of U.S.A., 32° Freemason Rex R. Hutchens explains about the 23rd degree in the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry:

Here we begin the symbolic initiations into the Mysteries practiced by the ancients from whom Masonry has obtained her great truths.

We believe the documentation above should be sufficient to establish in the minds of honest-hearted people an undeniable link between the Masonic Lodge and the Mystery Religions. Not because we say so, but because we have read the testimony from their own Masonic authorities. It is clear that there are men who are using the modern Masonic Lodge to carry on the work of the ancient Mystery Religions. This is a cup of abomination from which Christians cannot drink.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Revelation 18:2-5 KJV

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT WITHIN FREEMASONRY THE THINKING EXISTS THAT WOULD ALLOW FOR THE PRACTICE OF HUMAN SACRIFICE TO EXIST?

seridium

There are strict rules on this site about referencing sites that you cut and paste from. Thats because people like David L. Carrico can get quite upset when not credited with their work. Even if it is a load of baloney.

Crowley was never a regular freemason, though of course he liked to think he was.

If you do a search on the site you will find much discussed on the topic. But if you couldn't be bothered to write your own posts I doubt you'll take the time to do a search.

My grandfather was in the blue lodge. I don't recall if he was 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree. He did have information (books, pamplets) regarding the lodge. I found some of the information after he had died. I'll have to find the book again and make some scans. I found pictures with symbolism in it all throughout the literature. I'm not into symbolism, i don't think that some numbers are more important than others. I think it's all quackery. However, occultists and older pagan religions are a large source of a lot of this symbolism. If you weren't specificly looking for it, you wouldnt see it. Snakes are probably one of the most prominent symbols. The devil appeared to eve in the bible in genisis as a snake. Also, i'm not a big supporter of the bible or any religions for that matter. But, all throughout ancient civilizations you see snakes represented as gods and dieties.

I think the most intresting depiction of this is the feather serpent mayan god. They're the only ancient civilization that i'm aware of that put feathers on their serpent god. Very strange, some have suggested that there is a link to aliens, etc. I don't see enough proof of this, its more a leap of blind faith.

But back to the topic at hand, snakes appear all throughout masonic lodges. We have a 33rd degree temple near where i live(i don't know the specific term, i think maybe the grand master lodge, or something to that effect). A friend visited it not to long ago (2-3weeks?) to check it out after I had told him some things about it. If i knew he was going I would have had him take my digital camera, however I don't have any pictures. I guess I could make a trip up there so i can see it for myself. Anyway, to the point. The masonic lodge was filled with depictions of serpents and snakes. The walls, the art, the pictures. He sounded flabbergasted when i talked to him after his trip.

Anyway, this is just one example of this. The pyramids, all seeing eyes, etc, etc. They're everywhere. I'm not saying that all masons are bad, or all masons worship the devil or anything of that nature. But something i do notice throughout history is that there is always an elite group which practice their religion behind closed doors. I really see no other way to explain a lot of the things going on. This stuff does exist, how deep the vein goes is open for debate.

Also, bush was a member of skull and bones. Which is one of the original divisions of the bavarian illuminati which came to america after the persecution of masons started. How can someone protect and serve the country when that person has taken a blood oath to serve an order?

Originally posted by tsensel

My grandfather was in the blue lodge. I don't recall if he was 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree.

If he was a Lodge member, he would have been Third Degree. The first two degrees are probationary, and do not entail membership in a Lodge, at least in the United States.

But back to the topic at hand, snakes appear all throughout masonic lodges. We have a 33rd degree temple near where i live(i don't know the specific term, i think maybe the grand master lodge, or something to that effect). A friend visited it not to long ago (2-3weeks?) to check it out after I had told him some things about it. If i knew he was going I would have had him take my digital camera, however I don't have any pictures. I guess I could make a trip up there so i can see it for myself. Anyway, to the point. The masonic lodge was filled with depictions of serpents and snakes. The walls, the art, the pictures. He sounded flabbergasted when i talked to him after his trip.

You may be referring to the House of the Temple in Washington, D.C., which is the headquarters of the Supreme Council 33° of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States. There are bronze serpents on the wall of the Temple room in commemoration of the Brazen Serpent erected by Moses, as well as being symbolic of infinity and eternal life. For photos, and an online tour of the Temple, click here.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
If he was a Lodge member, he would have been Third Degree. The first two degrees are probationary, and do not entail membership in a Lodge, at least in the United States.

You may be referring to the House of the Temple in Washington, D.C., which is the headquarters of the Supreme Council 33° of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States.

I didn't know that the first 2 degrees were probationary, learn something new every day. Like i said previously, I'm not sure what degree he was. I just know he was a member of the blue lodge. (According to you he would have to be 3rd degree) I'll ask my grandmother next time i speak with her exactly what level he was. They did come to his funeral and do some weird rituals all dressed up. I wasn't sure what to make of it. I didn't pay much attention to it at that point in time. But it was a rather weird experience.

The temple i'm talking about is located here in Cincinnati, ohio. Like i said, I've never actually been there. But after telling a friend about masons and masonic rituals and other informations which i've gathered over time decided to venture there.

I do know that Carl Linder (owner of cincinnati, more or less) is a high ranking 32nd or 33rd degree member at the lodge specified. I think it might be a good learning experience for me to check out one of these temples myself. I think i'll arrange for my friend to take me up there since he's already ventured in. I'll take some pictures of the serpents i'm talking about and post them.

From my understanding, having snakes and serpents in masonic lodges is not uncommon. My main point was questioning what the symbolism is.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
well sir if I may, spare us the thousands and countless hours of memorizing abstract arcana if it is so innocent then...

... *snip* *snip* ...

You have to know one thing: I was recruited into Amway myself a long time ago and I can smell a scam a mile away.

Concerning "thousands and countless hours of memorizing" - apparantly you only spend time memorizing stuff for the first three degrees. This can be and has been done for centuries by men with full-time jobs and families to take care of. The degrees of the Scottish Rite are presented in a two-day period and involve absolutely no memorization work.

One must be a Master Mason to join, but the good part is that there isn't any memorization work like there is in the first three degrees. It is a very educational and enjoyable event. It is truly a series of lessons which capably round out one's Masonic knowledge.
www.utahscottishrite.org...

I have heard the same applies for the York Rite, except I have no link to back it up with.

Concerning "smelling a scam" - it seems the average annual dues for a lodge are somewhere between $50 to $55 annually, depending on location. This less-than-$5-per-month charge probably barely covers electricity/gas/phone/internet charges, plus a little extra for regular maintenence.

I'm not a mason, but this is the "practical" information I have been able to come across.

My father and my uncle were both 33 degree Mason's,as well as being lay leaders in the Methodist church,I've never met 2 more people who were always looking out for their fellow man ,we were brought up to take the bible in a literal sense,I just think when people have no knowledge of something they have a tendency to read their conspiracys into it,remember biggest fear is the unknown

Originally posted by tsensel


I didn't know that the first 2 degrees were probationary, learn something new every day. Like i said previously, I'm not sure what degree he was. I just know he was a member of the blue lodge. (According to you he would have to be 3rd degree) I'll ask my grandmother next time i speak with her exactly what level he was. They did come to his funeral and do some weird rituals all dressed up. I wasn't sure what to make of it. I didn't pay much attention to it at that point in time. But it was a rather weird experience.

Interesting. I've participated in many Masonic funeral rites, including the actual presiding, and have the ceremony memorized. I don't know anything in it that would be considered "weird".

From my understanding, having snakes and serpents in masonic lodges is not uncommon. My main point was questioning what the symbolism is.

The only Masonic building where I've ever seen serpents depicted is the Supreme Council Temple, which I linked to above. I'm not saying that there aren't any, only I haven't personally visited any that do. Although some Lodges may have such decorations, they are not common ones, and serpents are not used as symbols in Ancient Craft Masonry.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
If he was a Lodge member, he would have been Third Degree. The first two degrees are probationary, and do not entail membership in a Lodge, at least in the United States.

Just for clarity, this is not the case in the UK, where you become a full freemason after initiation. But then there is no such thing as a masonic funeral in England these days so I guess the whole situation wouldn't apply.