WTC Challenge

Originally posted by Misfit
On the theme of blown windows, I have yet to hear anything of debunking what I have brought up several times, and posted pics to twice for clarification.

Why will no debunker resolve this instance? ...............

In the pic, below the line of collapse, why is this half+ floor having a massive outburst?
Ya can't say it is ANYTHING to do with air, unless of course compression can bypass about 11 floors.

Misfit

Easy, that is the mechcanical floor. That is the air being blown outward through the building HVAC intakes. The air is bing forced down and out through the shafts in the core as the building collaspes.









[edit on 14-7-2005 by HowardRoark]

Wow, Howard. You really came back to whip us conspiracy theorists back into shape. You must've had your nose to the grindstone for all of that rebuttal work.

My evidence against the fires stands. The NIST report is bogus because it is based on a fundamental claim that is bogus. Your challenge has been met. "Good day, sir!"

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Easy, that is the mechcanical floor. That is the air being blown outward through the building HVAC intakes. The air is bing forced down and out through the shafts in the core as the building collaspes.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by HowardRoark]

Watch the movies at: stargods.org...

Compressed Air,


There were bombs at the core base which caused the weight of the building to fall down. The cutting explosions kept it from toppling.

The CEO of Controlled Demolition said that's exactly how he would bring those buildings down by blowing out the core and having the buildings weight bring it down.

There was molten steel found at the base of the cores for days afterwards, no office fire or jet fuel on Earth will create this.

Firefighters, live news reports and witnesses all reported a bomb blast at the towers base just before the buildings fell.

So if you want to stick to the plastic office chair or drywall burning so hot that it detroyed the integrity of steel and collapsed 3 WTC buildings the same way when other buildings got hit worse and were still standing and no steel framed building has ever collapsed from fire.... fine but i've only got one emotiocon for you,






[edit on 14-7-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis

Firefighters, live news reports and witnesses all reported a bomb blast at the towers base just before the buildings fell.

Prove it. Offer conclusive proof that these so called blasts occured before the collapses started.

Actually, from everything I read, they reported "what SOUNDED like bombs" going off. There were natural gas pipes, and transformers, and other things that would sound like bombs going off as they blew.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis

Firefighters, live news reports and witnesses all reported a bomb blast at the towers base just before the buildings fell.

Prove it. Offer conclusive proof that these so called blasts occured before the collapses started.

Why? You've yet to prove anything to me besides showing you have a bias toward government statistics. I can't prove it in your narrow vision because neither FEMA or NIST have even discussed this aspect of the collapse because like yourself, it doesn't fit their conclusion.

Why would they put bombs in the core basement and why did they find molten steel days later?:

"If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure"

Mark Loizeaux, president,
Controlled Demolition Inc.

So there you have a reason WHY bombs would be used at the base.

"A few seconds after 10:00 am", former Colonel Donn De Grand Pre notes, "we see a great white cloud of smoke and dust rising from the base of the [South] tower. The anchor gal on Fox 5 News video exclaims 'There is an explosion at the base of the building… white smoke from the bottom… something happened at the base of the building… then, another explosion! Another building in the WTC complex …'"
[Barbarians Inside the Gates: Book Two: The Viper's Venom: p 50]

There you have TWO witnesses, one Col. Donn de Grand-Pre, U.S. Army (ret.) and the other a new anchor reporting live what she is seeing from feeds, i'm sure they would of talked about the building coming down rather than the smoke rising from the bottom if the building collapsed first.

And of course we have firefighters talking about experiencing bombs in the buildings also.

Anyway, get on the merry-go-round Howard and start spinning.
I think you should try the 'discredit witnesses' tatic, yeah, that's always a good one.





[edit on 14-7-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Prove it. Offer conclusive proof that these so called blasts occured before the collapses started.

Whatch this clip from the link TheShroudOfMemphis supplied.
Good link BTW shroud!!

stargods.org...

You can see, put ya glasses on Howie...you can see the charges obviously going off before the building falls.

How much more proof do you need Howeird?

Prove it!

The tower does shake several seconds before the actual collapse, this was also caught on tape.

I cut out a segment from Loose Change (you can download it from
question911.com...)

Here is the segment I cut out which shows the Tower shaking.
I would like to see an explanation for this.

rapidshare.de...

Exploding the myths regarding the squibs on the WTC towers

Among all the evidence pointing to controlled demolition of WTC1 & 2, perhaps the most damning is the explosion puffs, or "squibs", seen exploding out from the building - sometimes tens of floors below the level of collapse. The government's "pancake theory" hinges on each floor being collapsed in succession by the weight of the falling floors above it. This admirable, but ultimately ridiculous attempt to explain away what was obviously a controlled demolition is debunked by many factors. Here are just a few of the factors we've discussed so far, there are many more:

• The potential energy contained in the towers is insufficient to collapse the towers completely, let alone to snap lengths of steel into neat 12-foot lengths, to completely pulverize the concrete and other materials in the towers, and to create such a voluminous, rapidly expanding dust cloud, as was observed.
  
• The truss failure which the pancake theory depends upon cannot explain the complete destruction of the steel core.
  
• The fires and secondary effects observed in the towers indicate that temperatures and conditions were not sufficiently extreme to cause the steel failure which is fundamental to the pancake theory.
  
• The pancake theory can not account for the violent and high-energy lateral ejection of steel beams.
  
• The failure of one area or section of a tower would lead to partial and tilted collapse, rather than simultaneous collapse at all points. This led the government to later come out with the all new "zipper effect theory", a bogus theory attempting to explain away the flaws in the original bogus theory. This brings to mind the secondary theories invented to explain away the incongruencies in the geocentric, "Earth is the center of the universe" theory in the days before Copernicus.
  
• The pancake theory fails to account for each floor somehow only providing enough resistance to produce an additional 2.77s to the collapse time over free fall - an average of 0.029s (29/1000ths of a second) per steel-framed, steel-cored floor!
  
• ...and so on.

However, even NIST and FEMA completely avoided the issue of the squibs because they know they cannot be explained away by the pancake theory.


SQUIB MYTH#1: The squibs came out from the skylobbies.

Some defenders of the government lies would have you believe that the squibs observed were simply air, compressed by the collapsing floors, magically descending through elevator shafts until they reached the bottom of the shaft, and then blasting out the sides of the buildings with explosive force in isolated spots. If the WTC towers were giant steam pipes that had suddenly sprung a leak or twelve, this theory might make sense. But unfortunately it amounts to a "magic bullet theory"; just another bogus theory dreamed up to explain the inconsistencies in the original bogus theory.

The skylobbies were located on the 44th and 78th floors in both towers.



The skylobbies and the mechanical equipment floors were easily distinguished from outside the towers by their darker color, creating a banded effect around the towers. Each skylobby was the top floor of each of these bands.



The following diagram illustrates the elevator layout for the towers.



Notice how the local elevators stop at the skylobbies. They do not connect to the mechanical equipment levels. If the compressed air magically traveled down these elevators and, upon meeting the resistance of the elevator shaft floors, shot out the elevator doors and exploded sideways from the buildings, all such explosions would only be observable at the 78th and 44th floors. This is not what was observed.

I will provide some frame captures of relevant videos below, but these are inherently grainy and are provided more as a reference for squib location. You need to download and watch the videos (click the "VIDEO" titles) to get a clearer picture, and decide for yourself.

VIDEO 1: The explosion squib observed in this video at first glance appears to come out of the dark banded area. However, if you look closely, you will notice that it explodes from the bottom of the dark band, and is perhaps even just below it. Remember, the skylobbies constitute the top of each dark band, and the elevators do not progress down beyond that floor.




VIDEO 2: In this video, we can see explosion squibs coming out from the corner of the building not far from the top. As you can see, the squibs are at least 5 floors below the collapse level, and nowhere near the skylobbies. There is also a smaller squib visible in the middle of the face we are looking at.





Here is a slow-motion version of the collapse with the squibs marked: VIDEO 2 Slow


VIDEO 3: Again, here you can see two clear explosions of dust and debris from well below the collapse level, yet well above the skylobby. The video may be low-res, but no one could argue that these are anything but high-energy, localized expulsions of dust and debris.







VIDEO 4: This video is very shaky, but early on you can see some squibs explode out from the building, one on the right which may be from the skylobby, and another on the left which is from the bottom part of the dark band. However, later you can see another two squibs explode out from the building which are nowhere near the skylobbies.




VIDEO 5: This video is amazing. You can see squib after squib exploding out from the right side of the building, and also from the side facing the camera, again all nowhere near the skylobbies. But the most amazing squib, and the one that puts the final nail in the coffin for any "magic compressed air" theories is this one:




This squib is about 50 FLOORS BELOW THE DESTRUCTION LEVEL and it is BELOW THE SKYLOBBY!



HOW DID IT GET THERE!? We can clearly see from the magical, physics-defying path any supposed "compressed air" would have to take to reach this spot, that this is ANYTHING BUT compressed air from the collapse.

I could show more squibs, there are so many, but I think the evidence is clear enough. Very few, if any of them exploded from the skylobbies.

SQUIB MYTH#2: Magical compressed air expelled from the elevators had a clear path to the outer perimeter.

This image shows the floor layout from a typical floor in the WTC towers. This particular layout is from the 96th floor:


Firstly, look at the area covered by the elevator shafts. How much air do you really think is being compressed down these narrow shafts? Especially considering that the majority of compressed air is supposedly snapping steel beams and ejecting them hundreds of feet, as well as creating those explosive clouds of pulverized concrete that we're supposed to believe are not explosions.

Secondly, notice how the elevators are in banks facing each other. If the magical compressed air is taking a trip down elevator shafts and then for some reason deciding to get off the elevator and take a trip outside, it has to smash through another bank of elevators on the other side, still stay in an uninterrupted stream, and then smash out through the glass and maybe steel of the outer perimeter (Path 1). Or, it has to make a right turn and smash out through the windows perpendicular to its original path (Path 2). Compressed air simply does not behave in this manner. Do you think this is plausible? I agree... it's impossible.



But even if we decide to attribute fantastical, super-physical powers to streams of compressed air, we have to remember that many of the squibs I showed earlier are exiting from the corner of the building, but at right angles (Path 3). If this is compressed air, then how did it get to this position and exit at this angle??

The only conclusion we can draw from this is that the observed squibs are not compressed air. If they are not compressed air, then, together with all the other observed phenomena in this unprecedented collapse, one can only reasonably assume that they are mis-timed demolition charges.


SQUIB MYTH#3: If the squibs observed were explosions going off earlier than they were supposed to, then those sections of the buildings would have started to collapse as well.

This theory just does not stand up to logic. If the observed squibs were from demolition charges of some type, then they were obviously single, isolated charges going off out of sequence. They were not explosions that covered entire floors and were not large enough on their own to cut all of the core columns and cause a structural collapse at that level. If the mis-timed explosions witnessed were entire floors blowing out, then this theory would hold some merit. As it is, it is a non sequitur argument.

[edit on 2005-7-15 by wecomeinpeace]

Originally posted by bsbray11

Thanks for providing the sources. Not sure why it's funny though.

I found it humorous because you were insinuating that I got them off of a "conspiracy site", and that they were total bullcrap.

Uh, no...

I guess perhaps because you're an asshole towards everyone that doesn't agree with your viewpoints you assume that everyone is going to be an asshole towards you?

In fact, your words were

I can see from a number of photos that neither one matches the actual holes in the towers -- I'd really like to see evidence to the contrary. Who made these graphics? A conspiracy site?

I guess you have a problem with FEMA now, too. You are fair to both sides after all, right? So since you didn't agree with the figures before, I'm assuming you still don't agree with them? If you're truly fair to both sides, then it shouldn't matter what side they came from, after all.

I asked where the graphics originated, you had them linked from a conspiracy site. I don't trust any photographs or graphics I find online unless I can confirm them from multiple sources and/or determine for myself if the graphics are accurate based on other information available.

I don't have a problem with FEMA because of these graphics, but I do think they don't line up exactly with the damage I see in photos. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but I still don't see what's so amusing about it.

Absolutly awesome post wecomeinpeace , i give you 3 thumbs up

You have already voted for wecomeinpeace this month.

You have voted wecomeinpeace for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Well done . Thats some excellent research and in no way shape or form can anyone say compressed air smashed windows 50 floors below the collapsing.................or should I say controlled demolition.

As for Catherder...............Have you read the Official FEMA report because if you did you would have known those diagrams were from there.

Peace

I think NIST and FEMA have been proven wrong by MANY, MANY people. Case closed

Now will come the theories about exploding transformers, gas mains, windows shattering from tension/torsion, and rainbow-colored flying dodos with magical, exploding bums.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Now will come the theories about exploding transformers, gas mains, windows shattering from tension/torsion, and rainbow-colored flying dodos with magical, exploding bums.

Flying dodo's..........heeeeeyyyyyy I thought dodo's couldn't fly??


There are no conspiracy theories to 9/11. Its a conspiracy fact. PNAC and are trying to do what hitler was trying to do. Only they have gone covert, although I don't think they duped everyone. As you can tell from the 9/11 truth poll. Excellent work wecomeinpeace.

Excellent work welcomeinpeace

Top Job!

I asked where the graphics originated, you had them linked from a conspiracy site. I don't trust any photographs or graphics I find online unless I can confirm them from multiple sources and/or determine for myself if the graphics are accurate based on other information available.

I don't have a problem with FEMA because of these graphics, but I do think they don't line up exactly with the damage I see in photos. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but I still don't see what's so amusing about it.

Ahh quit trying to play it down. You thought the images were bs because of their source, not their content. If you were that dead set against them regardless of source, you would be posting a rebuttal for them right now. But you aren't.

And yeah, excellent job, WeComeInPeace. I was about to say that that one squib couldn't have been compressed air because of the length of the blast outwards, and how the blast was concentrated to such a narrow area, but it looks like I won't need to now.

And yet you'll notice, despite evidence being fleshed out showing otherwise, that certain members will never change their beliefs short of the government admitting to it themselves, and even stubbornly then. They won't even respond to this stuff, let alone consider that they are wrong.. coughHRcoughcough. Howard can consider his challenge met by now for sure. It's probably been met 3 or 4 times already throughout this thread.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Exploding the myths regarding the squibs on the WTC towers

You have voted wecomeinpeace for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Nice work on the progrssive squib photos WCIP.

You either are young and have working eyeballs, or are old but ate lots of carrots to see the miniscual outburst in the first photos of squib. Me = old and HATE carrots, can't see the end of my nose [hence the nose-tip prints all over the monitor from reading, lolol].

Glad to see my inquiry finally took off.

CatHerder & HowardRoark


NOTE: Bypass underscored lines. Just caught the answer in a re-read of WCIP.

I am curious of one thing - how do you come to the conclusion of what the specific floor is? [ Of which, I find it awfully funny that, the two of you being the seemingly "know it all" about the WTC's, you each thnk that floor is different - one says it's the SkylLobby, the other says it's the Mech floor. ]. Are there some identifying markings of the buildings? As I don't recall any pics of the collaps, from the ground up as to calculate floor numbers.

------- Adding a couple details to WCIP's compressed air questioning -------

CatHerder ......... on the 13th, you replied to my questioning of your Skylobby theory with your comment of the compressed aire jumped those 11-15 floors via the elevator shafts. Unless the WTC elevator doors are unlike any other, in that the electric juice keeps the doors open against a mecahinical closing force [many applications work this way, I just don't see this being applicable to shaft doors] .......... that theory quite laughable.

HowardRoark.......... By your theory of air shaft travel, you are saying that, instead of the compressed air travelling thru shafts and dispersing thru the mid floors [collapse to squib] via un-obstructed vents, that the compress air went straight to the mech floor and burst passed all the mechanical devices between the shaft and the open floor area. That also, is laughable.
Also just as laughable is the fact that, this compressed air, instead of going out the burst windows all around the building floor, that is is instead going thru typical-sized office vent ways [read as: sq. inches, not sq. footage]. If the glass is so weak from the inside [as one of you claims the case], the glass is going long before THAT much damn air travels THAT far for that many floors.

===============

Again, damn fine job on that WCIP

Misfit

[Edit = undersocre note]


[edit on 15-7-2005 by Misfit]

In any normal situation this would be easily debunked.

Many of you are falling back on the standards of building demolition, but are missing one important fact. THIS IS NOT A STANDARD DEMOLITION.

If you were in fact evil, soulless, and wealthy enough to commit an atrocity like this, you would have teams of people working to figure out how to make it look like the building simply collapsed on itself. This hypothetical team of people would never allow an obvious from-the-ground-up explosion.

The plan is genius, really, people don't want to believe that people would do that to their own countrymen, people have this blind faith that their gov't wouldn't betray them. Well sorry guys, it has in a big way.

Someone like that would also have teams of people working for years after the fact whose sole job description would be to discredit / remove anyone that shed any light on the truth, eg: habitual debunkers on ATS, the "suicide" of hunter s. thompson, etc. They would also make sure that the evidence was removed from the scene and destroyed as quickly as possible, which did happen.

Excellent piece WCIP

Looks like I can't vote you twice in one month bummer, I guess it's the thought that counts. you should compile all your work in one piece.

You have already voted for wecomeinpeace this month.

We need a super thread by WCIP called WTC Challenge II.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
I predict that I will not receive many ATS points for this thread.