Why are we ashamed of American Megaliths?

We have quite a number of Megaliths in America that no one ever talks about. It's like the elephant in the living room. See this link:

www.barnesreview.org...

Is there a politically correct conspiracy to keep the full truth about our heritage quiet? What's wrong with the idea that celtics and native americans might have coexisted at certain times in America's past? Is the government taking PC so far that they actually conceal these types of sites from the public and refuse to fund research about them?

We don't keep them quiet. A number of them get mentioned in many courses (my course in American Indian history mentioned a number of them) ... but, y'know, there's just only so much that a teacher can do to make her kids aware of these things. You can't actually beat it into their heads.

Most of them, like my fellow students, kind of blink sleepily at the teacher and forget the information within 24 hours unless it shows up on a test (then they forget it 6 weeks later.)

However, they're of interest mainly to historians, antiquarians, anthropologists, and archaeologists and researchers into the unexpected. They are also, unfortunately, the subject of some wild (and unfounded) speculation by people who aren't satisfied with the answers that science comes up with.

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh
Is there a politically correct conspiracy to keep the full truth about our heritage quiet? What's wrong with the idea that celtics and native americans might have coexisted at certain times in America's past? Is the government taking PC so far that they actually conceal these types of sites from the public and refuse to fund research about them?

I wouldn't postulate a single conspiracy of suppression and like Byrd mentioned it is now a matter of ignorance from the American society. The nation is much more interested in the next American Idol rather than the history of America's inhabitants.

I suppose the fact that Britain has turned her megaliths into high profile tourist attractions has made me wonder why we have no interest in our own. A tourist from America would go to Britain to view Stonehenge, but not go 100 miles to view our own version. It just seems odd.

And then there was all that ruckus over Kennewick man.

Originally posted by Byrd
They are also, unfortunately, the subject of some wild (and unfounded) speculation by people who aren't satisfied with the answers that science comes up with.

Never be satisfied with the answers that science comes up with. Or you will not be- A Scientist! Question everything, then when you think you understand, review again! A short list of Scientists who were not satisfied with the answers that science comes up with:

Einstein
Watson and Crick
Hubble

What we don't know vastly outweighs what we do know.

As for Irish/Indian connections: Academia suppresses investigation of Precolumbian voyaging by witholding funding and advancement for those who challenge accepted dogma. The people doing the witholding are not sailors, or Native. Our legends tell us that the ancient Irish are our descendants; and that voyages occured constantly in both directions- especially by the Innuit. I myself have an unsinkable Native sailing canoe- that one man can lift- that makes 5 nautical miles per hour in a 10 knot wind. I've gone coastwise in kayaks and open canoes for thousands of miles, and I know the deed can be done with a stone adze and a little brain work.

I think the ancient voyagers get short shrift because they weren't out to PLUNDER AND COLONIZE settled lands.

We Native People are proud of our connections with these megaliths and the Peoples of Ireland, England, France and Spain.

Read the Timaeus, by Plato.

We Native People are proud of our connections with these megaliths and the Peoples of Ireland, England, France and Spain.

That actually raises a very interesting question. Has anyone ever investigated whether or not native peoples travelled to Europe anciently? The problem with modern scientists is that they VASTLY underestimate the capabilities of ancient peoples to circumnavigate the globe. Their theory is that peoples were isolated, and only moved about when there were handy land bridges and whatnot.

But the reality is that Megaliths, sun worship, and various cultural traditions have been found in very different parts of the world with no real explanation. IMO, it's probably caused by ancient voyagers moving back and forth between the continents, causing cross cultural contamination.

If I remember my reading correctly, there were some iron age (?) mining settlements back east that were in place for a lengthy period of time, then disappeared. It would make sense that interaction between peoples happened during that time frame, along with cultural exchange. If the celts could use their boats to come to America in the iron age, then it's possible they gave technology to the native americans (if they didn't have it already) to do the reverse.

I think it's somewhat sad that science is unwilling to pursue this very interesting area of research.

AWingAndASigh,
There are a number of theories attempting to support the trans-oceanic voyages from the americas to both the european and african continents as well as to the asian continent (conspiracy theories include the antartic continent also).
Nothing has been subataniated completely.
Examples would include tobacco, coc aine traces found on egyptian mummies. The reason that they can not be 100% positive that this proves trade between old and new worlds is that the mummies that which have these traces have gone through many hands and varying environments since they were first discovered. So much so that they may well have come into contact with these substances throught the years after their discovery.

I actually saw a show on one of the educational channels where they showed stone tools unique to a very specific area of Europe were also found in America. Something about how the tools were flaked was very unique. They speculate that the only way that could happen is if there were interaction between the two continents.

I've also seen some research into the similarities between the megaliths on both continents that seem quite striking.

My point is not that a very little bit of research gets done, it's that we never hear about it like we hear about all the other discoveries. It just seems odd.

Yes there are similarities that can be found. That does not mean that they are the same nor that there was trade / communications between the 2 continents.
There are only so many ways that you can create an arrowhead, axe, etc. that would make them usable over and over again. Similar technologies of such type can and do occurs at similar times at different points around the world.
Does this prove or negate the possibility of trade / communications, no to both. Just that there is a possibility that such was the case.

Yes there are similarities that can be found. That does not mean that they are the same nor that there was trade / communications between the 2 continents.

OK, then explain this:

planetvermont.com...

this:

www.kotv.com...

this:

www.hurstwic.org...

and if you want to get a little out there, this:

paranormal.about.com...

The proof is there. Scientists just don't want to see it. They have their theories to protect.

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh

Yes there are similarities that can be found. That does not mean that they are the same nor that there was trade / communications between the 2 continents.

OK, then explain this:

planetvermont.com...

this:

www.kotv.com...

this:

www.hurstwic.org...

and if you want to get a little out there, this:

paranormal.about.com...

The proof is there. Scientists just don't want to see it. They have their theories to protect.

I thought this discussion was about ancient communications between the continents?
Other than the first link, all of the links that you have provided are from the Norse who were the first europeans to discover america unlike what we were taught in school (at least when I was in school) that it was Chris Columbus.
AS for the first link which is attempting to date the runes as in the BC time frame, well, lets see. The Nordic language (written) did not change much overall for it's lifetime (language that is). So it having similarities to BC writtings does not hold much water.
Another issue that your links have is that some of the items have been carbon dated. Here is some information on how carbon dating works:

Will Carbon-14 dating work on all artifacts?
No. There are a few categories of artifacts that cannot be dated using carbon-14.
First, carbon-14 cannot be used to date biological artifacts of organisms that did not get thier carbon dioxide from the air. This rules out carbon dating for most aquatic organisms, because they often obtain at least some of their carbon from dissolved carbonate rock. The age of the carbon in the rock is different from that of the carbon in the air and makes carbon dating data for those organisms inaccurate under the assumptions normally used for carbon dating. This restriction extends to animals that consume seafood in their diets, as well.

So dating the formations cannot be done accurately since they are of stone and not from a biological organism.

I myself beleive that there was communications as well as trade between the continents but as I stated befoe, there is no solid evidence to support this.Carbon-14 Dating

I thought this discussion was about ancient communications between the continents?

(Banging my head against the wall.)

Someone needs to re-read their history.

CELTS are not NORSE, although the Norse did end up living among the Celts. If you recall your history, the Picts/Celts were the barbarians the Romans were unable to defeat when they conquered Britain toward the end of the Roman Empire. You can read some Pictish/Celtish history here:

www.tartans.com...

Also look at this site:

celts.ws...

Also note this quote:

Radio-carbon dating at this site has shown it to date back to 3475 BP (Bristlecone Pine), which is equal to 1525 BC.

Do some research on the Megaliths in Scotland (where Celts were quite prominent). You'll start to see why the similarities are so striking. I'm sorry, there were some other links to standing stones in the US that are almost identical to those in the UK, but I was unable to find the link in the brief time I looked on the web for some examples to show you parallels between the two cultures.

The last link actually talks about some discoveries of ancient artifacts, like Roman. I've seen other links that talk about Phoenician and other mediteranian civilizations.

Do some research on the web and you'll find far more examples than I've provided.

The Celts
Okay.... were is the support for 6000bc?
Who were the Celts?
Runic NorseRunes
Looks very similar to the ones that your link provided. Note these are norse and not celtic.
Norse Literature

The First Euro-Americans Norse Settlers in the New World

Celtic History

Again, I invite you to read the link that I provided along with the quote that ws in my last post. radio carbon dating is for biologicaly based artifacs not granite as the megaliths are comprised of.

I am familiar with mystery hill as well as a few other sites that are throughout new england as I was raised in New Hampshire. I can even take you to a few places that have other carvings of runes that are not provided by your sources as they are not well known.

The premise of this thread was for ancients traveling between europe and america. Not rehashing old nordic ruines and ruins.
I do find the information on the roman coins and pottery intersting and I for one do not know the hows and whys of thier being in the us. I do know there are a few threads discussing them here on ats.
But again, even if they do prove to be factual, it does not show ancient civilizations communicating / traveling.
Yes, I have done some research, it is not very hard.

Okay.... were is the support for 6000bc?

Where exactly did I mention 6000 bc anywhere in my posts? Stonehenge itself was built only 5000 years ago (3000 BC).

See this site:

www.britannia.com...

I would not expect a European influenced megalith building people in America to be older than their European counterparts!

Exactly how ancient do these people need to be?

Well, try THESE ancient explorers:

www.pbs.org...

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh

Radio-carbon dating at this site has shown it to date back to 3475 BP (Bristlecone Pine), which is equal to 1525 BC.

Argh. Someone needs to whap the site author with a textbook or two. "BP" means "Before Present." Not "Bristlecone Pine."

Arrrrrgh, even.

Do some research on the Megaliths in Scotland (where Celts were quite prominent). You'll start to see why the similarities are so striking. I'm sorry, there were some other links to standing stones in the US that are almost identical to those in the UK, but I was unable to find the link in the brief time I looked on the web for some examples to show you parallels between the two cultures.

There are some hoaxes and some modern stonehenges, but there isn't an exact copy of the Stonehenge here in the US beyond the modern replicas. Even the site called "The American Stonehenge" is reasonably controversial (parts of it were built in the 1800's), but it's not terribly similar to Stonehenge. It's a circle of standing stones... but there's nothing particularly culture-centric about that. Any culture capable of standing large stones upright can make a stone circle.

Claims of Ogam here in the US should be treated with some suspicion, since that form of writing didn't exist until 400 AD (yeah... surprised me at how recent it was. Brought in by monks and Latin scholars to provide the Celtic peoples with a written language.

We do have a number of Medicine wheels here, though. They're not megaliths or standing stones, but they're interesting.

There are some hoaxes and some modern stonehenges, but there isn't an exact copy of the Stonehenge here in the US beyond the modern replicas. Even the site called "The American Stonehenge" is reasonably controversial (parts of it were built in the 1800's), but it's not terribly similar to Stonehenge.

The interesting things about megaliths is that they appear pretty much all over the world. There's quite a bit of varience between them, but a lot of similarity as well. I would suspect that megalith building was a cultural thing that spread with human contact much like the switch from hunter-gatherer to farming. However, the contact had to exist for the behavior to spread.

Compare 'America's Stonehenge' to Skara Brae, here:

easyweb.easynet.co.uk...

I guess this is the 'official' site for America's Stonehenge:

www.stonehengeusa.com...

And a specific quote:

4,000 B.P. (Before Present): Unknown megalithic builders arrived to construct a 12-acre astronomical stone calendar. At the center of this stone calendar lies a 4.5 ton granite sacrificial table. Inscribed tablets of the ancient Canaanite god Baal/Celtic god Bel have been found on this site. Worshippers of Baal were associated with fertility rites, sun worship, and human sacrifice. Stone monoliths mark astronomical events that were important to people of that time period. Also on this site, which is believed to have been used for religious ceremonies, are numerous stone chambers. Who the exact builders were, why they left, and what happened to them after that are still a mystery, although there are some compelling theories. It is believed that at that time period, a very large body of water, which was fed by the Merrimack River, shored near the Mystery Hill area. This would have made the Mystery Hill area accessible by ships from overseas. It is believed that Phoenicians, Celts, and possibly others came from across the seas and settled here long before the discoveries of Christopher Columbus.

Here are some better pictures:

www.asgoth.com...

Another comonality is that the American site is also oriented to astronomical events. I believe this is something only recently discovered about Stonehenge (18th century).

See: witcombe.sbc.edu...

See dating for American Stonehenge here:

unmuseum.mus.pa.us...

I'm not sure I agree with you that all the American megaliths are fake. Building that kind of structure would be a major undertaking that most people wouldn't do just to have a laugh on the neighbors. Do you know how much effort it would take to position that many large stones with pre-modern technologies (Mayflower 1620 +)? To calculate the exact astronomic events and construct the megalith accordingly?

It would be unfair to say that because American megaliths don't resemble Stonehenge that they have no relation. Stonehenge is unique among megaliths even in the UK.

Ok, I just saw the post with the picture links. I thought a megalith was supposed to be constructed of huge stones. Am I thinkling of a monolith instead of a megalith. I have no doubt that Pre-Columbian travel ocurred to the Americas, but I am easily swayed by pictorial evidence instead of mere words.

[edit on 6-9-2005 by groingrinder]

(Smile.) The web sites have pictures. In all likelihood, you're having technical difficulties with your computer if you're not seeing them. Try downloading the picture links and see if you can see them that way.

I see them fine from my computer.

Originally posted by Byrd
We don't keep them quiet. A number of them get mentioned in many courses (my course in American Indian history mentioned a number of them) ...

Another reason that things ar equiet about this is a simple fact that the vast majority of "school-taught" history focuses on American history from the European point of view...That's because USA wasn't the USA until the Europeans started coming over in great numbers. To get a more precise version of American history, you have to take special history courses that do concentrate more on America before the European arrivals.
However, I've had no problem learning about American megaliths, such as the Snake Mounds & such...It's just that I never learned it in school because that is a biased view of history.

Originally posted by Chakotay
Never be satisfied with the answers that science comes up with. Or you will not be- A Scientist! Question everything, then when you think you understand, review again!

In short, a real scientist is always skeptical, but never dismissive. That unfortunately seems to be the scientific-version of the religious dogmatic attitude that's crept in.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
I thought this discussion was about ancient communications between the continents?

Actually, no...This began as a discussion about ancient American megaliths. There already are a few threads from years ago that discussed the possibility of ancient inter-contenental communication. Fortunately, this thread did get turned back to it's original purpose...

I've found this ready VERY interesting...it seems that this is something that I personally would like to look into. So there is an entrance into a hillside that leads to a domed encasement lined with stone dating back to around 701 A.D.? And this is supposedly in the Northeastern United States...

This stuff sounds familiar to me actually...