Let's try to be civil, shall we?

In an effort to have an actual discussion, I am reposting this single post to try to get some clarification.

Guys, seriously, both sides, keep it cool on this one, alright? No mud slinging, no name calling, etc. We have let this particular section of the forum degenerate into an elementary school playground, and I for one do not like other members coming here and stating that "this section of the forum is a joke" (I can't remember who said that but I clearly remember reading it.).

Sooooo, I'm going to repost my own post from another thread.

Let's keep it clean, gentlemen, please.

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
My fight isnt with freemasory Its with all secret societies. You dont seem to understand the damage that has, and is being done to humanity by these organisations. You cant have a secret society within a open society. Its like the proverbial bad apple in the barrel, sooner or later it will rot all the others, just ask Cardinal Law.

Riiiiiiiight... couple questions:

1. What damage has and is being done to humanity by these organizations?

2. What qualifies as a secret society?

I dont hate freemasonry, I hate the oath to the death, a oath by design to hide the guilty. I hate when a group protects themselves at the expense of all others and then use charity to hide behind.

more questions:

3. How many times must the obligations be explained?

4. How does Freemasonry protect itself at the expense of all others? Examples?

5. Why must Freemasonry be hiding behind charity? Is it so hard to believe that they are good men who get satisfaction from helping others?

Masons? I dont hate, I have great sadness for them, for they know not what they are getting themselves into.

Masons do know what they are getting into - a fraternity. There is ALWAYS the option to demit.

I spoke with one mason who told me he dosnt care about the corruption within the brotherhood, it wont matter in 200 years, he says. He truely couldnt care less for his children and grandchildren.

more questions:

6. What corruption within the brotherhood? Examples?

7. How do you conclude for this man's statement that he doesn't care for his progeny?

Well, I care! I care about what world we leave for the children of the furure. I care about this country and many others. In my opinion our only hope is to unite!!! And we cant do that with secret societies fragmenting the population.

Heheh you guessed it; more questions:

8. Do you know what the phrase "Brotherhood of Man, Fatherhood of God" means?

9. How do "secret societies" fragment the population?

Can you understand?

I'm trying. Why don't you help me out by answering my questions.



Note to mods: If you deem it necessary to trash this thread, then by all means do it, it's no skin off my back, and I will not be offended. I do feel the issue can be discussed rationally, that's why I am reposting my questions. They are honest and I think they merit a response. Because of nonsense permeating the last thread I was not able to get any answers. I do not want this to turn into a playground fight, however, and if it even starts to go in that direction I will personally request via u2u that it be closed. Thanks guys.

[edit on 4/18/05 by The Axeman]

Axeman:

Why continue with these people? Go out, get some air and make some money. We are in the face of a teenage, dogmatic force: people who have the time to post digital pictures of trolls and make lude comments. True, I am against secret societies to some degree, and I am taking away from this experience on this forum the opinion that the Masons I have encountered here are foolish full stop: but I will not generalize that all Masons, for example, are in the same campaign. I am personally intimate with some Masons in my local city and they are not like the aforementioned. So if you can, say goodbye to these people and do some more reading on your own.

Take care.

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
Why continue with these people? Go out, get some air and make some money. We are in the face of a teenage, dogmatic force: people who have the time to post digital pictures of trolls and make lude comments. True, I am against secret societies to some degree, and I am taking away from this experience on this forum the opinion that the Masons I have encountered here are foolish full stop: but I will not generalize that all Masons, for example, are in the same campaign. I am personally intimate with some Masons in my local city and they are not like the aforementioned. So if you can, say goodbye to these people and do some more reading on your own.

We don't act quite as much as teenagers as people who accuse perfectly docile fraternities of tryinng to take over the world, kidnapping and drugging, blowing up toilets, feeding dogs laxatives, raping pre-teens and eating babies. THAT'S teenager-ish.

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
Axeman:

Why continue with these people? Go out, get some air and make some money. We are in the face of a teenage, dogmatic force: people who have the time to post digital pictures of trolls and make lude comments. True, I am against secret societies to some degree, and I am taking away from this experience on this forum the opinion that the Masons I have encountered here are foolish full stop: but I will not generalize that all Masons, for example, are in the same campaign. I am personally intimate with some Masons in my local city and they are not like the aforementioned. So if you can, say goodbye to these people and do some more reading on your own.

Take care.

While I respect your opinion, I disagree wholeheartedly. I agree that people can get carried away at times but I do not think my friends here are foolish in the least.

Why continue? Because I am honestly interested to know what makes all these folks so dead set against a fraternity I respect and will be joining soon. I read in another thread that you had "lost what little respect you had for Masons posting here" (sorry if I misquoted but it's close), so that's fine, and that's your opinion. My intention with this thread is to get someone (anyone) on the other side of the fence from me to respond to these very simple and honest questions I have put forth.

Either they can't, in which case they shouldn't be slandering Masonry in the first place, or they won't, which to put it bluntly makes them trolls.

I have yet to see someone with an anti-Masonic viewpoint (with the exeption of a precious few, namely freudling) that has any worthwhile reason to hold the anti-Masonic position so strongly (or at least the decency to try to back up what they say). By and large they are repeating parakeet-fashion things they have read or heard somewhere else and they take it as fact without first trying to rationally and fairly examine Freemasonry.

I know something about it because I started my research into Masonry from the anti viewpoint.

I just want these people who so boldly accuse and denigrate the fraternity to give me some good reasons why! WHY?!?!

I don't want them to say, "Oh because this COULD be going on, or that COULD be going on" Because on the opposite side of the COULD coin there is the notion (which I firmly believe) that they COULD be doing just what they say they are.

So come on guys, how about it? Let me hear some reasons (other than baseless speculation) why Masonry is so bad.

Don't tell me it's bad, tell me why you think it's bad. Fair enough?

P.S. Seb, you know I've always got your back, but you have been a little... testy lately. Let's put our best foot forward here, bro.

We must take care not to bring ourselves down to the level of those that seek to make us look like fools. When we do, they win.


[edit on 4/19/05 by The Axeman]

Axeman:

Sorry, I completely screwed up. I thought you were an anti-mason getting attacked by them. I confused you with another poster.

Best wishes.

Indeed, Axeman is neither a mason nor an anti mason. (tho I think he is planning on becomming a mason, and was orignally an anti-mason). It just goes to show that labels are pretty useless (as pc as that sounds, I suppose it does have a point).

How does anyone think we obtained our independence from Britain?

Freemasonic secrecy.

ASE, ASE, where are you?! No answers to my simple questions... whatever shall I do now?

How irritating.

Axeman

I'm not sure how interested some people are in having a proper discussion. I made two posts on the 'Trolls' thread, one aimed at Kawasaki and the other at ASE, with the aim of calming things down and answering some questions. I have heard nothing from either of them.

It seems that a big fuss is made about something - anything from masons behaviour on the forum through to speculation about the activities of the Order. When someone actually offers a real discussion with some facts they go AWOL.

I don't think there's a genuine desire to understand freemasonry among several of the posters on this forum, which is unfortunate as the same old speculation and nonsense trawled from the net is going to be repeated endlessly in a tired cycle of escalating ignorance.

Luckily the mods seem to be pretty balanced, if the posters can remain civil and keep a lid on frustrations we might, just might, make some progress.

Originally posted by Trinityman
Luckily the mods seem to be pretty balanced, if the posters can remain civil and keep a lid on frustrations we might, just might, make some progress.

That is exactly waht my intention was with this thread, but ASE has posted several replies in other threads and, in addition to completely ignoring my posts in alternate discussions, has completely ignored this one in favor of the same ol' same ol'... *shrugs* Whaddya do?

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
Axeman:

Sorry, I completely screwed up. I thought you were an anti-mason getting attacked by them.

Heheh not today, my good man.

Originally posted by Trinityman
I don't think there's a genuine desire to understand freemasonry among several of the posters on this forum, which is unfortunate as the same old speculation and nonsense trawled from the net is going to be repeated endlessly in a tired cycle of escalating ignorance.

You are just full of insight, arentcha?!? You're absolutely right about your statement above, that's the whole point of being a troll: to instigate. Once the conversation turns and the troll is pinned against a corner being asked for proof, they're done. They could care less about a REAL, MATURE discussion.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Indeed, Axeman is neither a mason nor an anti mason. (tho I think he is planning on becomming a mason, and was orignally an anti-mason). It just goes to show that labels are pretty useless (as pc as that sounds, I suppose it does have a point).

Just for clarity's sake, I was never an "anti-Mason". I was damn suspicious once upon a time though.

Then I actualy looked into it and found that in reality it was something I would very much like to be involved in... when the time is right. For now I am simply a friend of Masons. All of them.

Oh and hey Nygdan, thanks man.

Okay, just so we can sort some of this stuff out, I am going to tackle a couple of these questions. Maybe we can get people started.

First question.

1. What damage is being done to society by these organizations?

I think the basic objections fall into a few camps.

A. Freemasonry promotes a brotherhood of all men. In this fashion, it demands that its members tolerate and show equal respect for diverse faiths. Anyone who believes in a Supreme Being is admited: Jew, Christian, Muslim, etc. As a result, those who believe rightly are joined together with those who believe wrongly. This creates the incorrect impression that faiths are equal when we all know that Our-Faith-Is-The-One-And-Only-True-Faith (tm).

B. Freemasons appear to prefer one another over others. In this fashion, they may benefit each other rather than doing what is right.

Objection A cannot be answered. It is true and accurate from the point of view of the person who holds it and such a person should not become a Mason.

Obection B isn't really much of an objection. We all prefer those we know and love over those we don't. Would you have much respect for the man who rescued strangers from a burning house while permitting his own children to burn? Of course not. Do you prefer the company of friends to that of random strangers? Of course you do, that's what a friend is, no?

2. What qualifies as a Secret Society?

I would argue that Masons aren't a secret society. Heck, today that aren't even really a society with secrets -- it's all been blabbed. I could tell you every password, dugaurd, grip, etc. of every degree. Out of respect for the traditions of a fraternity of which I am not a member, I would not, however.

To really be a secret society, I would think the organization would try to avoid public notice. They would, in short, demand that their members not state their membership. I am, in fact, a member of such an organization. Sadly, the secret society of which I am a member doesn't seem to be one of those secretly running the world. Too busy with more important matters, I guess.

Masons, on the other hand, proclaim their membership in a variety of ways -- some respectable (like lapel pins) and some less so (like animated avatars? - just kidding).

More, perhaps, later.

Or someone who would like to present a more compellingly anti-Maosnic view could pick up the slack here, yes?

[Edited for small spelling error -- hrm, maybe sleep before posting?]

[edit on 19-4-2005 by driley]

Well. I'll pick up the baton first...

1. What damage is being done to society by these organizations?

I think the basic objections fall into a few camps.

A. Freemasonry promotes a brotherhood of all men. In this fashion, it demands that its members tolerate and show equal respect for diverse faiths. Anyone who believes in a Supreme Being is admited: Jew, Christian, Muslim, etc. As a result, those who believe rightly are joined together with those who believe wrongly. This creates the incorrect impression that faiths are equal when we all know that Our-Faith-Is-The-One-And-Only-True-Faith (tm).

Objection A cannot be answered. It is true and accurate from the point of view of the person who holds it and such a person should not become a Mason.

Yes, I think this is a question of perspective. There are many flavours of Christianity, fundamentalism, for example, can be very extreme and intolerant which is quite at odds with the aims of freemasonry. Fundamentalists of any religion shouldn't join.


For most people, from a personal perspective we know we are right in our faith, but respect absolutely the right of people to worship differently. I certainly feel no overwhelming compuntion to convert the Hindu in my lodge to Christianity.

B. Freemasons appear to prefer one another over others. In this fashion, they may benefit each other rather than doing what is right.

Obection B isn't really much of an objection. We all prefer those we know and love over those we don't. Would you have much respect for the man who rescued strangers from a burning house while permitting his own children to burn? Of course not. Do you prefer the company of friends to that of random strangers? Of course you do, that's what a friend is, no?

I agree, but such is the suspicious and cynical nature of society in the UK, freemasons here have had to put up with ill-conceived legislation and prejudice in attempting to stop perceived mutual aid. If only these folks would take the time to understand that although this is not what freemasonry is all about, there will always be a small number of individuals who try and abuse the system.

Luckily the legislation is illegal and is slowly being withdrawn, under pressure I might add.

2. What qualifies as a Secret Society?...

Yeah, I would agree with your assessment (which I snipped). It would be interesting to see if everyone could agree on a definition of what a secret society is. I suspect that drawing one up which definately included freemasonry would also include so many other organisations, groups and activities that it would be effectively worthless.

Personally I find that knowing the difference between Secret and Private helps here. There is a difference, y'know

Trinityman:

I agree that there exists "trolling", but it appears to be from both sides. Having looked at some threads, that is evident. In this way, both sides are clashing and instigating. A typical Masonic instigation is, when a poster who appears to be geniunely naive and starts a thread, they shread into him immediately. Course, not the best start.

It is a shame, because it is quite "hot" in here, and at times, for good reason. However, there is so much clutter from the "trolling" that it is hard to want to keep coming back here to keep current. The trolls who know nothing about Masonary should read something first. The Masons should stop being pushy and tone down their comments: especially the troll pictures and the overstated replies.

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
I agree that there exists "trolling", but it appears to be from both sides. Having looked at some threads, that is evident. In this way, both sides are clashing and instigating. A typical Masonic instigation is, when a poster who appears to be geniunely naive and starts a thread, they shread into him immediately. Course, not the best start.

It is a shame, because it is quite "hot" in here, and at times, for good reason. However, there is so much clutter from the "trolling" that it is hard to want to keep coming back here to keep current. The trolls who know nothing about Masonary should read something first. The Masons should stop being pushy and tone down their comments: especially the troll pictures and the overstated replies.

Yeah, you're right. It's just hard to not get emotional sometimes when we're being called stanists, liars, disinformation agents, etc etc. It's easy to make an accusation, it's very hard and very disturbing to have to defend yourself from them, especially every day.

Some people take the accusations they make very lightly, when they are in fact very serious accusations that they are making. Those are the people who I consider trolls. They say those things just to instigate troouble, they have no intention of having a reasonable discussion. I think that is why we do not bother arguing with them anymore, and would just rather make a joke and post a picture. Sometimes it's just not worth repeating ourselves to people who don't want to listen.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I think that is why we do not bother arguing with them anymore, and would just rather make a joke and post a picture. Sometimes it's just not worth repeating ourselves to people who don't want to listen.

The Masons in the group would, perhaps, do well to remember that with the high registration rate for ATS, there are always people for whom each thread is the first one on the topic. I agree that constantly defending yourself can become boring (imagine how I feel -- I grew up gay in Texas!).

But, perhaps, you could simple devise a few standard posts, save them, and edit them slightly to fit. The perfect, well-researched, and calm reply every time.

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
Trinityman:

I agree that there exists "trolling", but it appears to be from both sides. Having looked at some threads, that is evident. In this way, both sides are clashing and instigating. A typical Masonic instigation is, when a poster who appears to be geniunely naive and starts a thread, they shread into him immediately. Course, not the best start.

Agreed. But the thing about that is this: The people who really are naive and are truly seeking to find out what the Masons are about will pose their questions, get their answers, perhaps pose more questions, read the material presented and that will be that. I ALWAYS treat this kind of poster with respect and I will try to be as helpful as I can in finding the info they seek.

It is a shame, because it is quite "hot" in here, and at times, for good reason. However, there is so much clutter from the "trolling" that it is hard to want to keep coming back here to keep current.

Imagine the frustration of keeping a presence here trying to keep that trolling at bay and present good info in the face of slander and outright lies in the hope that the passer-by will not be taken into the anti-Mason parrot farm. It is difficult to say the least.

The trolls who know nothing about Masonary should read something first. The Masons should stop being pushy and tone down their comments: especially the troll pictures and the overstated replies.

Everyone gets a little carried away now and then, and given the kind of crap we take here on a daily basis I'd say all in all we do pretty good. There is one Mason here in particular that we could ALL learn from, but he hasn't been posting much lately.

The trolls that I brand as trolls don't care to read up or learn... They would rather instigate. Akilles and Necros et all don't have the slightest desire to know the truth. They are happy with their ignorance and that's fine for them. And for the record I only post the troll pics when they make a trollish post. You know, outright lies, innuendo, and just plain hatefulness. I'm not going to quit until they quit posting that way. I figure it's better than saying what I really would like to say at those times.

Take notice of the fact that the person I posed those questions to has posted several times in other threads but STILL refuses to post here and have a discussion. *shrugs* THAT is a troll, my friend.

[edit on 4/20/05 by The Axeman]

Okay, so I'm new. So maybe I don't know how these things work. But I'm seeing people with "Fighter" under their name and, to me, that seems like an perfect solution.

So, I will agree to join with any Mason who has been "defending" here to debate any two people who wish to present an anti-Masonic point of view in the debate forum (provided staff are willing to host such an event).

If either side refuses this challenge, let the record show them to be unwilling to have their views publically challenged and judged. In which case, I think the mods should lock this thread, post it up at the top of the Secret Society forum and let it be the last word on the topic.

There. Now, guys, put up or shush.