God's Righteousness is Greater than Our Wrath

Greetings my fellow ATSers. It has actually been awhile since I've posted a thread on this website of a spiritual nature. And I have always enjoyed my conversations with others from around the world on this forum discussing wonderful truths of God's word. In fact the thread title is something I posted in a recent thread to fellow ATSers. It came from a scripture penned by the apostle that reads thusly:

"Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah."-Romans 12:19.

You're no doubt familiar with the passage. I've read it dozens of times over the years, but it seems something always escaped my notice until recently. And it brings to mind also what Paul wrote:

"If anyone thinks he knows something, he does not yet know it as he should know it."-1 Corinthians 8:2.

This is a good saying for everyone. Especially those who love God's word. For we can only increase in knowledge if we stick to him and let his holy spirit guide us and open our hearts and minds to understand deep spiritual truths. The truth is not stagnant. It doesn't stay stagnant in man-made traditions and doctrines hundreds and thousands of years old that are unchangeable and rigid. As God's day approaches the light continues to get brighter for the righteous until that day is firmly established.

What does Paul mean not to get vengeance? Well God created us in his image. God has a plethora of qualities that we were imbued with. One of which is a sense of justice. When we feel that justice infringed we become wrathful, that is a godly quality. Some may call it righteous indignation. Yet man in his imperfect state is imperfect in his justice and his anger, his wrath.

Now who is the number one person to realize this? Yep, the apostle Paul. For as you remember before he was called Paul, he was known as Saul of Tarsus, a belligerent and insolent man, a persecutor of the congregation of God, and of Jesus' followers. You see he was a Pharisee, born of Pharisees. He was taught at the feet of Gamaliel, one of the great Rabbis of the ancient world. Saul was not just a no one. He was an extremely educated, and extremely religious man. Now to him Christians were an apostasy from Judaism and in his righteous indignation, his wrath, he was violently persecuting Jesus' followers. Did he know that scripture he quoted above then? Yes, without a doubt. He was quoting this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures:

"Vengeance is mine, and retribution, At the appointed time when their foot slips, For the day of their disaster is near, And what awaits them will come quickly.’"-Deuteronomy 32:35.

So as a Pharisee he was being a hypocrite. He wasn't allowing God to get vengeance. He was in his zealotry, taking it upon himself to avenge God. And in so doing he became an opposer to the truth and resistor to Jesus Christ, the son of God and Savior of the world. Jesus himself told Paul this, as he was traveling to Damascus breathing threat and murder against the Christians there:

"Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” He asked: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."-Acts 9:3-5.

Paul became a believer and a most staunch supporter and preacher of the good news about Jesus Christ. And later on he wrote this about himself:

"I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who imparted power to me, because he considered me faithful by assigning me to a ministry, although formerly I was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man. Nevertheless, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and with a lack of faith."-1 Timothy 1:12-13.

He recognized he was a hypocrite. So we see a little more clearly now how much those words had weight with him when he was inspired to write them:

"Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah."-Romans 12:19.

Saul, breathing threat and murder was trying to get vengeance on God's followers and he was really opposing the truth. He said he was shown mercy because he acted in ignorance.

You see how God's righteousness is greater than our wrath? He can see all things, and he understands why people behave the way they do, he can read the heart. On the one had Saul was acting insolently, he was doing what was worthy of death. And no doubt the Christians wouldn't have minded if Paul was put to death to alleviate some of the persecution he was causing them. Yet the Christians did not take out vengeance on Paul. And his eyes were opened to see what he was doing and he repented of his grave sins and was granted mercy and forgiveness. And later wrote that scripture.

You see God's righteousness is greater than our wrath. We are imperfect and understand things imperfectly. And even when we understand a thing we don't know it just as we ought to. And there is no one that ever stops learning. Even Jesus Christ continues to learn from his Father, Jehovah God.

Isn't that a wonderful thought? Well that is just a musing on my mind I thought I'd share tonight. There is actually much more running through my mind but I'll leave it at that for now.

a reply to: randomuser2034

You see how God's righteousness is greater than our wrath? He can see all things, and he understands why people behave the way they do, he can read the heart.

So when pedophiles and mass murderers commit the sad acts of depravity that they do, God can see and understand their actions?

I don't know if that's a wonderful thought randomuser2034, else where is the intervention for a start?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: randomuser2034

You see how God's righteousness is greater than our wrath? He can see all things, and he understands why people behave the way they do, he can read the heart.

So when pedophiles and mass murderers commit the sad acts of depravity that they do, God can see and understand their actions?

I don't know if that's a wonderful thought randomuser2034, else where is the intervention for a start?

God hates people who love violence:

"Jehovah examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one;
He hates anyone who loves violence."
-Psalm 11:5.

Notice this includes more than just mass murderers. It would include anyone who has a love of violence. All who enjoy watching violent entertainment for example, Jehovah has a hatred for them.

And anyone committing sexual immortality, anyone, that includes all of the filthy pedos who actually commit the act, but also everyone else, straight people, homosexuals, all forms of sexual immoraltiy, if they do not repent, none of them will inherit God's kingdom:

9 Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God."-1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

That includes everyone, God's people, you, me.

And don't get the OP wrong. Jehovah sees all injustice. And in his due time he will get vengeance. The scripture says "vengeance is mine, I will repay"says Jehovah." Jehovah will repay those causing tribulation to his people, as just retribution:



6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."-2 Thessalonians 1:6-9.

True, God is patient and merciful towards all. But that patient has its limits. And when Jesus arrives in his kingdom glory he will rightfully repay tribulation to those causing tribulation to his people. And the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven at his revelation along with us (that is the glorified anointed Christian congregation as spirit sons of God in heaven with Jesus Christ at his return) will bring vengeance toward them and they will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength.

The letters to the seven congregations helps you see this more clearly. There we see one congregation that put up with that woman Jezebel. Obviously certain ones in that congregation did not repent of their sexual immorality. Notice that Jesus gave them time to repent:

20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality."-Revelation 2:20-21.

Did Jesus say they were not his congregation? Nope. But he did send a warning to them, and told them he gave them time to repent. All who are in the congregation who commit sexual immorality, Jesus will give them time to repent. But if they don't, at his return they will be cut off along with the rest of the wicked world. And while it remains today they are eventually rooted out by the angels and disfellowshippped from the Christian congregation and given over to Satan's wicked system.

a reply to: randomuser2034

So when pedophiles and mass murderers commit the sad acts of depravity that they do, God can see and understand their actions?

That's not any sort of answer to the question I'm afraid.

Can he see them and know their hearts or not?

Let's try a simple "yes" or "no" if you don't mind?

And if your answer is "Yes" then why would an omnipotent benevolent God allow his creations to commit such sad acts of evil and depravity?

What about what they do in this kingdom, is there no justice or judgment in this life, but only the next?

As to the homophobia, well that's up to you.

a reply to: andy06shake

You ask: Can he see them and know their hearts or not?

Let's try a simple "yes" or "no" if you don't mind?

The answer is yes! Of course.

And the story of Jonah is a good example. There Jonah was sent to the city of Nineveh because of their great violence and was told to tell them that in 40 days God would bring destruction to the great city. Well, the people listened to the warning and repented of their violence. And God in turn withheld from destroying the city. And when Jonah got hot with indignation at God for not destroyuing them notice God's reply:

Should I not also feel sorry for Ninʹe·veh the great city, in which there are more than 120,000 men who do not even know right from wrong, as well as their many animals?”-Jonah 4:11.

Notice that God took into account the fact that the people in the city didn't even understand right from wrong. He took that into consideration when judging them.

People who are evil but don't know they are evil, Jehovah understands why they are the way they are. So yes he can and does have compassion for evil people, even if he hates their conduct and promises them he will do away with them for their evil. But notice what he says:

“‘I do not take any pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘So turn back and live.’”-Ezekiel 18:32.

So again God's righteousness is greater than our own wrath. A person who judges others according to their own standards of self-righteousness is actually an unrighteous person. Is it possible that God's wrath against someone isn't as great as yours would be? Are you perhaps too harsh a judge? Remember what Jesus said:

“Stop judging that you may not be judged; for with the judgment you are judging, you will be judged, and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you."-Matthew 7:1-2.

a reply to: randomuser2034

So he can indeed see them and chooses to allow them to commit the horrendous acts of depravity, check.

There goes the benevolent part I'm afraid.

Put it this way.

If you knew people were beasting and/or killing children, and had the power to intervene, and punish the horrible pieces of crap, would you not do so?

Or would you sit back and allow it to happen so you can punish them for all eternity in the afterlife?

There is not much righteous about complicity or inaction randomuser2034 as far as i can establish.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: randomuser2034

So he can indeed see them and chooses to allow them to commit the horrendous acts of depravity, check.

There goes the benevolent part I'm afraid.

Put it this way.

If you knew people were beasting and/or killing children, and had the power to intervene, and punish the horrible pieces of crap, would you not do so?

Or would you sit back and allow it to happen so you can punish them for all eternity in the afterlife?

There is not much righteous about complicity or inaction randomuser2034 as far as i can establish.

You are putting yourself in the place of God again. And you have judged him. He understands why you judge the way you do and can be patient with it. But he will eventually hold you to account for your unrighteous judgements and you will eventually be judged the way you have judged just as the rest of us.

The example of Jonah shows you just the opposite of complicity or inaction. God took steps to correct the Ninevites he sent them a prophet to give them warning and then he was ready to take action against that wicked city.

The same can be said in the days of Noah. The same can be said of Sodom and Gomorrah. Jehovah does not sit back idly by and allow wickedness. But he is patient with the wicked:

"Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."-2 Peter 3:9.

God's standards are pure and there is no unrighteousness in him. If you judge by your own standards you are actually being unrighteous, and you will be judged by the measure with which you yourself have measured out.

a reply to: randomuser2034

You are putting yourself in the place of God again.

Well, i am made in his image.

How do you know what gods standards are?

As to judging, well who judges God, given the fact you are not his equal but his subject?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: randomuser2034

You are putting yourself in the place of God again.

Well, i am made in his image.

How do you know what gods standards are?

As to judging, well who judges God, given the fact you are not his equal but his subject?

Well we know God's standards by reading the Bible. Jesus prayed this on the night before his death:

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth."-John 17:17.

To be sancitfied means to be made holy. Something holy is set apart for God, is clean. So God cleanses his people by means of his word. That is why we are told:

"Just as the Christ also loved the congregation and gave himself up for it, in order that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word."-Ephesians 5:25-26.

By reading God's word we get his mind on things his standards of right and wrong. Many people may be too lenient towards badness, others may be too strict and narrow and judge too harshly. God is neither. He is both firm, but loving and merciful. And we should strive to become like him. We do it imperfectly of course. But by prayer and study in his word and meditation on it are consciences are trained to distinguish between both right and wrong:

"For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child.  But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong."-Hebrews 5:13-14.

a reply to: randomuser2034

So ancient books that are nothing more than a collection of religious texts and a clear product of man, with all his fears and fallibilities laid bare?

Those are not God's words mate they belong to the priest cast I'm afraid.

The standards, or lack of for that matter, the same as the control constructs, you are seeing/reading, are their own.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: randomuser2034

So ancient books that are nothing more than a collection of religious texts and a clear product of man, with all his fears and fallibilities laid bare?

Those are not God's words mate they belong to the priest cast I'm afraid.

The standards, or lack of for that matter, the same as the control constructs, you are seeing/reading, are their own.

Quite the contrary. God's word is not of human origin. And his wisdom is far superior than human knowledge. As he himself reasoned:

"The One who made the ear, can he not hear?
The One who formed the eye, can he not see?
10 The One correcting the nations, can he not reprove?
He is the One who imparts knowledge to people!
11 Jehovah knows the thoughts of men,
That they are but a mere breath.
12 Happy is the man whom you correct, O Jah,
Whom you teach from your law."
-Psalms 94:9-12.

a reply to: randomuser2034

How so to the contrary?

How can you prove the Bible as anything other than a product of man?

As to superior wisdom, where?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: randomuser2034

How so to the contrary?

How can you prove the Bible as anything other than a product of man?

As to superior wisdom, where?

It seems quite simple to me. Look what divine wisdom is, quite contrary to what people in the world consider wisdom:

"But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. 18 Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace."-James 3:17.

Notice that wisdom from above is first of all pure and then peaceable and reasonable and ready to obey and full of mercy and good fruit, impartial, not hypocritical?

Scientists have put a man on the moon, but they have not solved the worlds problems of racism, hatred, and war. Yet those who apply Godly wisdom have. In fact Jehovah foretold that in the last days there would be a group of people that would come out of all the nations and they would "learn war no more:"

"In the final part of the days...
4 He will render judgment among the nations
And set matters straight respecting many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
Nor will they learn war anymore."
-Isaiah 2:2, 4.

While this wicked world and its false religions continue to war against each other and have racial, religious, and ethic pride and hatred against each other, Jehovah's Witnesses have breached the divide. They come out of all nations and languages and races and have put down their weapons and are at peace with each other and all men. They have shown that God's wisdom is superior to human wisdom. And that it is indeed possible to have true peace.

That is beacuse they have God's good spirit operative among them. And Jesus said that all would know whom his true followers were by this fact:

"By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”-John 13:35.

I am reminded of a faithful and dear brother, John Glass. He was called into a General's office during World War II. And the General asked him why he thought he was exempt from going to war. He replied, "we've already done away with war among ourselves, why do you want us to go back to do what the rest of the world is doing?" This General knew that Hitler was viciously persecuting and murdering Jehovah's Witnesses for refusing to support the Nazi. And the General admitted this, "you are right you have already shown God's word is superior than human wisdom." And all the Bethlites were given exemption from going to war by the U. S. government. This is one but of many examples of how applying God's word in our life is far superior than any human wisdom. It fixes lives, it makes you a better person. And it gives you a hope for the promises of a better and brighter tomorrow.

a reply to: randomuser2034

That's not proof randomuser2034.

But simply an opinion.

As to divinity, well there is not much divine about what we get up to.

Point of fact quite the opposite.

And that goes for Jehovah Witnesses also.

He created us in his image and then complains when we have wrath and want vengeance?
I know he's s an angry guy who makes no difference between good people, children, infants, pregnant women and puppies or kittens getting caught up in his punishments of some degenerates, by sending floods or other mass destructions, but in the end, it seems that violence started with him.

For he made us in his image.

If he didn't intend for us to sometimes misbehave, he made a big feck up and hence isn't omniscient.

If he made us in his image and wants us to become better by ourselves by keeping our wrath in check, he should lead with example and don't send good, honest, loving people to hell to burn in pain for eternity just because they don't believe in him.

This guy sounds just like a mentally ill human who wants to be seen as good, but inherently really isn't. My parents were much better than him. I trusted them, I loved them. They guided me and never needed to threaten me with horrible fates if I misbehaved.
Instead they knew I was created by them and made sure I could stand on my own two feet as I grew up.
They never needed to forced me to love them, because they were truly good people, with minor flaws. None as big as the guy in the sky has though.

I will love my parents as long as I live and maybe beyond if possible. They deserve my loyalty. They truly had my best interest in their heart. They were warm and affectionate and most importantly, they were real and not some fiction by people who clearly don't have my best interest at heart but only their own.

I don't believe in this so called god. Bite my shorts.

P.S.: there is some good stuff in the bible if you see past all the fearmongering and threats and all the other added content throughout the centuries.
It was a book of guidance and information for future generations. Ransacked and abused by humans adding whatever they needed to scare people in order to get them to obey the current regimes.
Nowadays they'd add cLiMatE cHanGe as their god and the gullibles are already being violent in it's name.

Humans gonna hume. No god. Only good people and eejits.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: randomuser2034

That's not proof randomuser2034.

But simply an opinion.

As to divinity, well there is not much divine about what we get up to.

Point of fact quite the opposite.

And that goes for Jehovah Witnesses also.

I agree with the last part. But that also reminds me of what Jehovah said after he made the rainbow covenant with Noah to not destroy all life on earth by means of a great deluge ever again. Notice his reasoning:

"And Jehovah began to smell a pleasing aroma. So Jehovah said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground on man’s account, for the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again will I strike down every living thing as I have done."-Genesis 8:21.

You know when I was young and read this I considered it a condemnation against wicked humankind. That God saw that the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up. But as I've matured and progressed I've come to realize that this is just the opposite. It is God's recognizing the fallen nature of man. And no one is good, not even a Jehovah's Witness. Now there may be some Jehovah's Witnesses that think they are better beacuse they live by Bible standards. But I am not one of them.

Scripture indicates that that is not one person that does not sin:

"But Jehovah looks down from heaven on the sons of men
To see whether anyone has insight, whether anyone is seeking Jehovah.
 They have all turned aside;
They are all alike corrupt.
No one is doing good,
Not even one."
-Psalm 14:2-3.

God is patient with fallen man. And the only reason we have hope is because of his great love and mercy and undeserved kindness toward us:

"By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift."-Ephesians 2:8.

originally posted by: Hecate666
He created us in his image and then complains when we have wrath and want vengeance?

Actually quite the opposite. You should read the conversation Andy and I have been having to get a better insight into this matter. In fact the last post I made as well.

a reply to: randomuser2034

According to your book which apparently contains the word of God he did.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen. 1 Verses 26 to 31

a reply to: randomuser2034

If man fell it was because he pushed us buddy.

Trees of knowledge original sin and all that jazz.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: randomuser2034

According to your book which apparently contains the word of God he did.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen. 1 Verses 26 to 31

I wasn't referring to our being created in God's image. I guess I should have made that more clear. But that seems quite obvious especially since I stated it in the OP. I am referring to the fact that God does not complain about our having wrath. In fact it is not a wrong thing to have. The Bible tells us that it is okay to have wrath but do not sin:

"Be agitated, but do not sin.
Have your say in your heart, upon your bed, and keep silent."
-Psalm 4:4.

Be wrathful, but do not sin; do not let the sun set while you are still angry; 27 do not give the Devil an opportunity."-Ephesians 4:26-27.

Again this goes back to our fallen nature and our tendency to judge according to our own standards. Also we may not have all the facts. In fact many times when a person judges or becomes wrathful it is because of wrong information or a misunderstanding! Entire wars have been started over misunderstandings, hurt feelings, or being too quick to react! World War I started that way. The first World War in human history.

Imagine if the people would have applied God's counsel on having wrath, but not sinning. Allowing God to avenge. Rather we are told in that very same scripture:

"But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good."-Romans 12:20-21.