Addressing the issue of constrained morality as Christians - are we truly good people?

Hi ATS,

I saw a thread by NeoHolographic the other day which suggested that atheists cannot possess a true moral compass as they have no fixed standards of morality to hitch their wagons to, so to speak. The thread drew much ire from atheists & agnostics alike, who were angrily denouncing the OP for pushing a false narrative, stating that they believed they were perfectly capable of moral behaviour. Furthermore, they stated, it is Christians who are devoid of true morality, because they need to put themselves under what they consider to be an imaginary cosmic law in order for them to have morality at all. In essence, they were claiming that Christians are literally amoral, because without their special made up rules to adhere to, they would be adrift & unable to make moral decisions for themselves.

Now this raises some very thorny issues for us Christians. Firstly, let me state that even from a Scriptural perspective, NeoHolographic was categorically WRONG to claim that atheists & agnostics cannot be moral people capable of independently making morally righteous decisions in the course of their lives, in terms of how they interact with other people & the world in general.

In the Book of Hebrews there is much discussion regarding the sacrifice of Christ, made once for all time, replacing the daily blood sacrifices offered by the Jewish priests in those times for the forgiveness of sins. God speaks concerning this singular act of redemption, and states as follows:

“This is the covenant I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord.
I will put My laws in their hearts
and inscribe them on their minds.”

Hebrews 10: 16

Now admittedly, the context is that of the redeemed who accept the sacrifice of Christ - but this is definitely a case of God putting His laws into the hearts & minds of ANY people in the days after Christ had offered that sacrifice - which is the time we are living in now - and when those laws are inserted into the hearts & minds of people who are being redeemed (people chosen by God to be sanctified - not necessarily ONLY Christians) then those people will live lives of moral uprightness, without the need to continually check whether they are behaving according to the dictates of the Hebrew 'Mosaic' law, which formed the basis of the original covenant between God & Man. They will naturally & effortlessly know the difference between right & wrong, and they will live according to the internal moral compass which is emplaced within them such that they act unconsciously, without the need to check whether they measure up - they simply live righteous lives, naturally.

I often refer to case studies of near death experiences when I want to emphasise to Christians or non-believers that God is far more merciful & forgiving, gracious & loving than most Christians would give Him credit for. Many Christians cling to the FALSE belief that if you never said 'the sinner's prayer' from a repentant heart, then you will literally burn in the fires of Hell for all eternity, whether or not you lived a morally upright life.

In actual fact, near death experience testimonies prove unequivocally that God brings normal, decent, atheist or agnostic people to the gates of the Kingdom of Heaven after they die following an accident or illness which puts them into cardiac arrest, from which they are ultimately revived by medics many minutes later, despite them having clinically died whilst on the operating table or hospital bed. These people who have a NDE describe being embraced by God in a flood of love & light, meeting relatives that had passed away before them, meeting angels, seeing Heaven, even meeting Jesus. This actually happened to my wife when she was 15 years old, having suffered anaphylactic shock due to a drug allergy. She died there & then on the hospital bed, and it took several minutes to restart her heart & revive her. In that time, she found herself beyond her body. standing on the edge of a mountain crevasse, over which was stretched a bridge, and on the other side, Jesus was waiting for her. She was overwhelmed with a sense of love & perfect peace, but as she was about to cross the bridge to go to Him, Jesus held up His hand and stopped her, telling her that it was not yet her time. He then pointed to a place behind her, and when she turned to look, she saw a young man curled up in fear & sadness, desolate & despairing, alone & unloved. Jesus told her that she had to go to find that man, because he needed her help. Years later, she met me here in England, and we started a relationship, getting married a year later. Unbeknownst to me until several years later, she recognised me when we met, as the young man who had been despairing in that near death experience. As it happens, I used to suffer from terrible anxiety & depression, fearing & despairing & not knowing how to resolve the trauma I had experienced as a younger teenager & even as a child. Part of her life's mission was to support & strengthen me to become the man Jesus wanted me to be.

But the point is, she had never said the 'sinner's prayer'. She was not religious, despite being raised in a nominally Catholic household. She went to a religious/convent school run by nuns, and she passionately disliked/ hated many of them. She lived the normal secular life of a teenage girl in Ecuador at that time, never giving any particular thought to religious topics. And yet, when she died on that hospital bed, Jesus was waiting for her, blessing her with divine love & peace, asking her to embark on a challenging mission that would see her cross two thousand miles of the vasty deep to eventually meet me in England several years later, as if by a miracle of coincidence - though there are only miracles of synchronicity, there is no such thing as coincidence.


Continued...

Even when people have a negative NDE, in which they might, as one real example tells, be escorted away from the hospital bed after their heart had stopped, going along twisting roads into dank & dangerous landscapes, until those accompanying them began to attack, hurt, and abuse them cruelly & viciously, causing terrible pain & humiliation - even in such awful cases, in this instance an aggressively atheist man who steadfastly refused to believe in God throughout his life - even then, an entity manifested close to this man & with great urgency, commanded him "PRAY TO GOD!" He actually refused at first, standing on his lifelong principle of atheism - "I'm not going to pray, because I don't believe in God" - the answer came again, even more urgently - "PRAY TO GOD!" As he realised that the abuse he had suffered at the hands of these literal demons was about to resume, he consented & openly prayed: "God, if you are real, please help me, take me out of this terrible place!" Immediately, the landscape was flooded with wondrous light, and the demons shrank back from the light as the man was overwhelmed with a sense of love & peace. He was lifted out of that terrible place, and brought to the gates of the Kingdom of Heaven. He met Jesus, as well as relatives who had died before him. The Lord told him it was not his time, but that he was to return to Earth & share his story, and learn more about faith, about God, about church. He was then revived on the hospital bed, and as soon as he was discharged from hospital, he completely turned his life around, becoming a Christian & living a charitable life to bless others, instead of living as he had before, focused entirely on himself.

That man had lived a selfish life, he had actively rejected God for the entire course of his adult life, he had openly denounced God & Christian believers throughout his time living on the Earth. He'd certainly never said the 'sinner's prayer' - but when the time came, and he died on that hospital ward, the demons came to collect him to take him to 'the bad place'. He was attacked & abused, but then God reached into the situation by sending an angel to encourage him to reach out in prayer, for the first time in his entire life/afterlife, and as soon as he genuinely & humbly sought the help of the Almighty, in the face of great evils being perpetrated against him, seemingly having no hope of redemption - God reached down & saved him IMMEDIATELY.

As I have said many times before, God is far more merciful than many Christians give him credit for.

So. When it comes to the matter of living a moral life, and having a moral 'core' in our soul/being, what is the deal with us Christians? Are we living a lie based on forcing ourselves to be moral? And if we weren't Christians we'd be immoral, unable to make rightoues moral decisions of our own accord? Well, I think that's a cartoonish example of the potential fallibility of Christians, and some fairly aggressive atheists were the ones making those claims in NeoHolographic's rather unpopular thread, so I'll be very careful to explain my response to the situation as fully as possible, to avoid confusion or the placing of blame/ the directing of anger between Christians & atheists/agnostics.

The key message of Christianity is REDEMPTION. So yes, in many cases people who become Christians were certainly living immoral lives before they came to saving faith in Jesus & His once for all time act of sacrifice & redemption. Certainly, I was one of them. I abused drink, drugs & solvents in my teenage years, I would steal from family & friends to finance those activities, and I had no respect whatsoever for the rules my father attempted to lay down concerning the behaviours he would & would not accept while I was living in his home. I routinely broke the rules, I would go out to clubs at all hours, my so-called 'friends' would trash the house when they came round for a session - and eventually my dear old Dad kicked me out as he simply couldn't cope with the aggravation & disruption I was causing him.

I hasten to add that later in life we ended up becoming great friends as father & son, I enjoyed having him round to our house several times a week for various activities he helped us out with after I became disabled. He was a wonderful man in many ways - but he wasn't a Christian. I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent momentarily, because it is relevant to the topic. My Dad, in 2022, received two death sentences. He was firstly diagnosed with motor neurone disease - a terrible disease which leads to total loss of all muscle function, eventually causing death by suffocation when the lungs stop working. This process can take many years. Six months later, he was diagnosed with gallbladder & liver cancer, in an advanced stage. Despite this, he managed to remain cheerful while he was in the hospital, and I visited him on the Thursday, having a cup of tea with him in the hospital cafe, my wife there with us too. When we said goodbye, I gave him a hug & said "Bless you Dad.", to which he replied "Bless you son." Now he had NEVER said anything at all about blessing, or God, etc. He had always viewed religion as a sham full of hypocrites in the main (though he exempted me & my wife from this estimation, thankfully!)

He always rejected my gentle attempts to share the Gospel or extol the joys of being a Christian. He was a lifelong atheist,a heavy drinker, and he had some character flaws that he never quite dealt with - nothing too terrible, but they got him into trouble at times for being argumentative, or getting too drunk in the wrong place, wrong time, and so on. Anyway, on the Friday, we received news by phone that during the night he had suffered a massive heart attack. Because he hadn't been hoooked up to a heart monitor (he hadn't been considered at risk) it was many minutes before the staff were able to notice what had happened & then revive him with CPR & electric paddles, etc. Unfortunately, because his brain had been starved of oxygen during that time, when he was revived it was seen that he had suffered catastrophic brain damage, which had completely shut down his ability to communicate, and forced him to repetitively utter a mumbling noise as a sort of verbal 'tic' which he rhythmically uttered every few seconds. It was deeply upsetting to see him in this condition. We weren't sure he could even hear or understand us - it seemed unlikely. The doctors advised that they were withdrawing care, because there was simply no way for him to recover even a little bit of quality of life - the damage was castrophic, as described, and even with the best care it would have been impossible to keep him alive for very long. And he was suffering terribly, so we agreed that care should be withdrawn - no food or water, high doses of Midazolam & morphine in an attempt to calm him (the unspoken accord between my brother & myself, and the doctors, was that we knew the midazolam & morphine could kill him, but it would be a better death than having it drawn out over an interminably long period of time..) The whole situation was extremely challlenging.


Continued...

My wife & I went to visit him on the Sunday morning at 8am. We sat with him, and as time went by, I had a very strong impression (through the Holy Spirit 'gift of discernment') that Dad was being persecuted by demonic spirits, which were threatening to drag him to Hell, essentially. There's no nice way to say it, but that was the reality that I suddenly became aware of. I could sense in the real of the spirit that Dad was truly terrified - he could still perceive these spirits clawing around him even though he couldn't communicate what he was seeing. My next move was to immediately & sternly rebuke these spirits in Jesus' mighty name. Without spending too long on that, with my good wife praying in the background, I began to share the Gospel with my Dad, patiently & thoroughly, giving him the truly Good News that he hadn't wanted to listen to in the course of his life - that he didn't need to be scared of those terrible creatures that he had doubtless perceived when his heart had stopped a couple of days beforehand - he certainly would have had a near death experience, and it was potentially not a nice one by the look of things.

In life, Dad hadn't been aware that Christianity was nothing to do with living a moral life as a first principle. No, first & foremost it was about accepting that Jesus is God, that He is good, and that you too can have a personal relationship with God through the personage of Jesus, one of the members of the Holy Trinity. And so I spoke clearly & calmly to my Dad, with great love, beseeching Him to simply reach out & trust in Jesus, that the redemption story was all true, and that God loved him dearly. I know he would have been blessed eventually even if I hadn't prayed & shared the Gospel that morning, because as we discussed earlier, God sends angels to redeem souls who are being dragged away unjustly.

But then the most wonderful thing happened - the atmosphere in the room completely changed. Suddenly there was no sense of fear in my Dad's eyes, or even the tones he was expressing verbally. The presence of God manifested powerfully - my Dad raised his head right off the pillow (something he hadn't done in the previous two days) & vocalised as loud as he could - I know he was trying to tell me that he had heard & accepted the Gospel message, and that he was now aware of the presence of Jesus, or perhaps the angels, coming to take him to Heaven. He laid his head back down on the pillow, and gently breathed his last. My wife & I broke down in tears of joy, not sorrow, knowing that God had reached down & saved my Dad from a lifetime of cynicism & unbelief, which the demons were using as a legal pretext, a 'justification' for their efforts & demands in trying to drag him away.

Because that's how the slimy bastards roll. They are exactly like prosecuting trial lawyers, using legalese pretexts & justifications to entrap souls who haven't led a truly open-hearted life before God & Man. But thankfully, as I have now amply demonstrated, God sends emissaries of all sorts to help redeem each soul who should have been enrolled in the Kingdom of Heaven, because in truth most people have a good heart beneath all the layers of baggage from their life in this fallen & broken world.

So. What have we learned? Well - God is far more merciful than most Christians will permit Him to be. God does NOT send people to Hell. God seeks to save every single soul that has a chance at redemption & enrolment in the Kingdom of Heaven - which is most people. Most people have God's laws written on their hearts & in their minds. The Western world in particular is almost entirely the product of the Protestant reformation. What do I mean by that? Well, most of our cultural mores & habits of thought, belief & practice are garnered from the Protestant churches of various denominations, all of which believed in the Nicene Creed, with the only differences being style of worship & model of preaching. Our morals are inherited from our parents, grandparents, our locality, our classmates & teachers, and the various other authority figures in our lives. All of those individuals have inherited their moral compass from the teachings of the Protestant church, in the main. We are a product of church philosophy, and so it is very easy for God to inscribe His laws on our hearts & in our minds. We are in the process of being redeemed, simply because we try to live a moral life. If, at the end of your life you happen to find yourself being dragged away by demons through a deeply unpleasant purgatory type environment, then you should simply humble yourself before the Almighty, and ask for His forgiveness & grace, for Him to save you from the perils you face at the hands of these spiritual apex predators with their legalese pretexts & alleged 'justifications'. God WILL save you from that situation. Why? Because He loves you, and as it says in Scripture:

First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered for everyone— for kings and all those in authority—so that we may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.

1 Timothy 2: 1-6

God desires that all may be saved & come to the knowledge of the truth. This ia great & wondrous fact to know about God, because it shows you that you are eligible to enjoy the wonders of God's kingdom, without fear of those scummy monstrosities that seek to drag good people away to the 'bad place'.

And hey, you know what? I have some intel on the 'bad place' which cements our understanding of the truth - that God is good, and that it is impossible for Him to do evil. So He CANNOT send anyone to Hell. Lost souls - those who are irredeemably wicked - brazen murderers, rapists, paedophiles, warlords leading child soldiers - all such people are unlikely to find an offer of a place in God's kingdom, because there must be genuine repentance & atonement for such grave sins. If they are dragged away, many of them will choose to fight back & seek to conquer the demons by brute force, even seeking enlistment in Satan's army rather than humbly submitting to God's authority to receive the free gift of salvation. I'm not saying it's impossible for such people to be saved, but it would take a mighty act of repentance & humility before they could find themselves on the path to purification & readiness for entry into the Kingdom of God - because no impure thing may enter Heaven, it simply cannot be done, by the very nature of the spiritual structure of that dimension of Reality.


Continued..

What about Hell itself? Jesus mentions it in the Gospels - surely that means that God invented it & that it is God who sends people there?

NOT THE CASE. Hell is a dimensional construct created by Satan & his demons, which is designed to be a prison system run by psychopathic demonic 'wardens', and it is the place where Satan punishes people (AND DEMONS) who displease him in some way. It also serves as Satan's palace, from which he rules that dimension & plots ruination for the Earth, so as to get revenge against God because he & his demons were cast out from Heaven by the archangel Michael & his army of heavenly warriors.

When a particular Catholic priest was conducting an exorcism in the 1930s, in Italy, the demon had been fought by the priest for several days & had finally ben forced to submit completely to the priest's authority. The priest was satisfied that the battle was almost won, and he mocked the demon, saying - "Don't worry, God has prepared a lovely warm bed for you down there in Hell" Of course he was referring to the common belief that God had been the architect of Hell, and condemned demons to burn in eternal fire 'down there'. The demon replied - bearing in mind it had been compelled to speak only the truth by this point, it had been thoroughly weakened by the battle with the priest, and ti was now under obligation to speak only the truth when addressed. And so the demon replied to the sarcacstic priest: "You know absolutely NOTHING! God didn't create Hell, we did. It didn't even enter God's mind to create such a place." Later, the same deon was forced to elaborate, and it explained that all the demons had been conscripted into the Satanic mega-project of the creation of Hell as a dimension built to Satan's specifications. It was to serve as a place of punishment for demons & lost souls which displeased Satan or one of the chief princes, the dukes of Hell, etc. God had never even begun to dream up such a terrible place. Initially, all that existed was 'an arid land' where the demons can find no resting place, only endless wilderness. After the creation of Hell, it became a symbol of what Satan wanted to accomplish upon the Earth - he wanted to establish the rule of chaos on the Earth, just as it was in Hell.

With all of that in mind, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your impression of who God is & what He hopes to achieve in your life/afterlife? We now know that He forgives & saves from Hell even those who were militant & butter atheists during their time living on the Earth. He rescues people who have already died, and brings them safely to the Heavenly kingdom, if only they humble themselves & trust completely in Him.

Bearing in mind everything we have discussed in the thread, I truly hope you will accept (speaking to you Christians) that God is more merciful,a dn more flexible, than we ever could possibly imagine. Be open to the idea of researching near death experiences, and discover the wonderful testimonies that simple, decent, humble people have experienced, even if they are not Christian. There is absolutely NO justification for claiming that only religious people can have a moral attitude & approach to life, in their dealings with other people & the world more generally. Through the centuries-old effects of the Protestant reformation, almost all of us are on the track to redemption, having inherited a strong & naturally 'good' moral outlook that originated with our ancestors, many hundreds of years ago. If you are interested in all of this wonderful stuff regarding the presence of God, contact with angels, spiritual blessings in abundance including supernatural gifts - there are many of them, listed in some of St Paul's writings, including praying in tongues (which strengthens you in a supernatural way & builds up your 'inner man' to have total confidence in all scenarios), seeing visions which bring wisdom into a situation you are praying about, the 'word of knowledge' where someone supernaturally reveals information about you or your circumstance that they couldn't possibly have known without the input of the Holy spirit, who is omniscient & able to perceive all things, even deep in the heart & mind of each individual human being, as well as prophetic dreams, the discernment of spirits, and more besides - if you are interested, I highly recommend you sign up for the 'Alpha Course' at a local church - they're a friendly, informal way to learn more about the Christian faith in a zero pressure environment which runs for a couple of hours in the evening once per week. And there's pizza!

My aim in making this post was to ensure that Christians are omre sensitive to the belifs (or lack thereof) expressed by other people when sharing their stories or explaining what they think about topics of spiritual significance. A secondary aim was to ensure that those who claim to be atheist or agnostic aim instead to be open to the ideas expressed by Christians, and perhaps reach out in faith to ask God to demonstrate His existence to you - that's what I did, twenty years ago, I looked up at the stars & asked "If you're real, show yourself to me, and I will serve you for the rest of my days." The very next day I was drinking in the town centre - a smartly dressed black lady walked past me but then stopped, turning back to look at me. She pointed at me & said "You've been praying. God answers prayer - come with me." She took me to a church & introduced me to the minister - we prayed together & I accepted Jesus as saviour & lord over my life. Thus began my own journey to redemption, which was a road that went on for a very long time until I came to a true standing on the straight & narrow road. These days God is blessing me abundantly, granting me a gift of prophecy & discernment - I pray for people & God shows me visions with attendant wisdom which is of benefit to that person in an exact area of their life or circumstances. It's a beautiful gift & I never tire of people's joy when they know that God has spoken to them through myself as the vessel for the Holy spirit.

I hope this thread might have helped you somewhat to close the gap between people of varying beliefs on ATS. I hope we can all have positive & productive debate, sharing stories & testing each other's knowledge, supporting those with whom we share this forum space, setting an example to all lurkers & occasional visitors to the hallowed halls of ATS>

Thanks & God bless.


FITO.

Nice read. Redemption is a good subject and gives hope to all.

I do disagree with your characterization of Hell though, no one rules there and everyone suffers equally, both sinners and Satan himself. The devil is in the details where Hell is concerned, that would be an entirely different and very long thread if one decided the subject of Hell needed addressing.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Were people that angry? I think most of us just easily pointed out the logical flaws in his assertion about where morality comes from, and that non-relgious people couldn't have 'decent' morals.

I still say that a good, moral person should not ever derive their morals from religion, least of all the Bible; which bits do you cherry pick to suit your own sense of 'good or bad'? If you reject the bloodshed, bigotry and hatred in the Old Test and only pick what you want from the New, how does that work?

Look at the ten commandments. The first 4 have nothing to do with being a good person and more about God's meglomania. It doesn't say "Don't abuse children" in the 10 commandements yet most sane, normal people know that is pretty wicked behaviour - they don't need to be told it. Those that do are mentally ill.

Also:

In actual fact, near death experience testimonies prove unequivocally that God brings normal, decent, atheist or agnostic people to the gates of the Kingdom of Heaven after they die

Hardly. While NDEs are gaining traction in more scientific domains, which more and more studies being performed - I don't lknow how you can say they "prove unequivocally" an afterlife. They fact that the people reporting them arent 'dead' kind of defeats the proof that they are evidence of life after death. Only a subjective report.

Having said that, I did read an article recently that the memories of NDEs arent composed of the same transient or imaginary memories of the brain but of ones dealing with 'experience', which suggests there is something more tangible or more 'real' about them. So that is fascinating.

I suppose my argument is, religion doesn't seem to instill a set of principles that help a society in the 21st century. Sane people will use religious texts as a justification to doing truly horrible things. And in their minds, they are morally sound and justified in their actions. Most others would see them as mentally ill or psychopathic. How then would you argue that religion is a valid source of morality? I wouldn't.

Instead, as someon has previously mentioned, even small children, devoid of relgious dogma and burdon, instrinsically know what is right and wrong, what is good and bad behaviour, being mean or being kind. I believe it's instinct, it's part of our genetic makeup. Because otherwise, humanity wouldn't have survived if we all acted selfishly or cruelly or with malice.

How would we have evolved and made it this far if we needed to be told via stone tablets that it's wrong to kill people? And would the catagorical proof that all religion is false and there is no God, suddenly undo all that morality? Would religious people now say, "Cool - I can finally murder and cheat and steal?". I hope not!

Morality comes from us, how we live as a society, how we evolve and how we WANT to grow as a peope. Not from old books.

In my opinion, anyway.

The simple answer is, no. The longer more complicated answer is, morality derived from the promise of eternal life defeats the purpose of grace and humility. Heaven is full of pompous, smug martyrs and saints circle jerking for eternity because they stopped "serving" centuries ago and they've gotten complacent. That is the destination for all good boys and girls who aspire to some quasi-godly hereafter. It was never about leaving a happier safer world for the generations to follow but simply leaving. That's not morality, it's investment, a financial strategy to premium retirement.

IMO there are no "good" people, only "good" deeds.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Being a Christian does not inherently make you a good person.


I know people who hang out in bars and cheat on their wife/husband, but every Sunday they're in church singing hymns and yelling "Amen" right along with the rest. They would screw you on a business deal if they think they could get away with it and never lose a wink of sleep. I know a lady who is the town gossip and loves to stick her nose in everyone's business. If she knows it, the rest of the county will find out. She is in church every Sunday and has Bible study at her house on Tuesdays.

I know people who never go to church but would literally give you the shirt off their back and hold their marriage as sacred.
I would trust them to hold $10,000 cash for me and never touch a penny.

As I said in the other thread, if a set of rules are the only thing guiding you to be a good person, you're not.

a reply to: NoOneButMeAgain

Jesus prayed:

"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth."-John 17:17.

To sanctify is to make clean, holy, set apart for God. This is done by means of the truth. And Jesus recognized that the truth is God's word.

Now you wrongly accuse that God is, as you put it, a 'megalomaniac' because he demands exclusive devotion. Another poster under you said that he knew people who did not serve God who are faithful to their marriage partner while he knew Church going people who had no qualms being unfaithful. So it is okay for a marriage partner to expect loyalty from someone who vows it to them, but not God? Your sense of right and wrong is warped.

Now God is the giver of life. That is not being haughty or arrogant on his part to state such. False gods will not help you. If God was truly as you accused him no one would be alive that didn't serve him. Yet he is kind even to those who do not acknowledge his existence. And paid the ransom price for our sins before ever we knew him. So his actions and your accusations do not coincide.

There are no statements from God's good word of truth that are immoral, or make a person evil. They sanctify, purify, make one holy. Jesus said all the laws of Moses could be summed up in loving Jehovah our God with all our heart, and, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as yourself. In fact this is what all the laws and the prophets hang on. And there is no law against love. And when only people who love in such a way exist there will no longer be a need for laws, for laws are for a lawless people.

originally posted by: randomuser2034
To sanctify is to make clean, holy, set apart for God. This is done by means of the truth. And Jesus recognized that the truth is God's word.

So, as I've said, you live your world in a circular argument that allows for no evolution or questioning to it, for, it's God's word, which is true and unerring, so where is the discussion for ideas or statements that do not fit into a 21st century society? You can't. That's one of the fundamental flaws and faillings of religion; it cannot be questioned, it cannot be challenged. And if that is your basis of morality, how to you evolve better moralistic views as your culture and society change? You can't.

Now you wrongly accuse that God is, as you put it, a 'megalomaniac' because he demands exclusive devotion.

The 10 Commandments
1. You shall have no other God's before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images. ...
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ...
4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. ...

What exactly are the first 3 about if not to cater to his weak ego?

So it is okay for a marriage partner to expect loyalty from someone who vows it to them, but not God? Your sense of right and wrong is warped.

Because marriage/relationship/partnership between two people is real, tangible and forms one of the foundations of our society and a family. God is not tangible or evidence-producing.

Now God is the giver of life. That is not being haughty or arrogant on his part to state such. False gods will not help you. If God was truly as you accused him no one would be alive that didn't serve him.

And this is where you go off the deep end, because there is absoluetly no evidence of God, none whatsoever. If there was, then you wouldn't have your faith, because faith is belief without evidence. And life on Earth began billions of years ago, far older than what your religious texts claim.

There are no statements from God's good word of truth that are immoral, or make a person evil.

Matthew 10:34-36
Deuteronomy 7:1-2
Deuteronomy 28

Look, you can gloss over or pretend that these don't exist, or re-interprete them in such as way as to lie to yourself about **exactly** the mean, incitful and vindictiveness of God's words and intentions.

Personally, I don't think God said any of it because I don't believe he exists - I think all that was written by man for man to scare and control him.

And because of that, I certainly would never take the Bible as a source of morality.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

As far as this whole morality thing goes, doesn't God create continuously, both good and evil? Aren't good and evil always going to subjective from the viewpoint of mankind?

a reply to: NoOneButMeAgain

Before the nation of Israel went into a covenant relationship with Jehovah God he had already sent the 10 plagues on the nation of Egypt. Parted the Red Sea, destroyed Pharaoh's army. Was guiding them with the pillar of cloud by day, and pillar of fire by night. And then appeared to them in a spectacular fashion on the holy mountain, at Mount Sinai from the midst of a heavy cloud and lightnings and thunder. And from there he spoke to the nation of Israel after they gathered at the base of the mountain from the midst of the cloud. And they all agreed at the mountain to become his people and to be faithful and loyal to him.

Jehovah, after proving his existence in an awe-inspiring way, made the stipulations of the Law Covenant, one was that if Israel were to be his property out of all the peoples of the earth they would give him exclusive devotion and keep his statues and laws and judicial decisions. And all the people willingly of their own choice went into the covenant. Just as a wife makes a vow to a husband.

And Jehovah was patient with the Israelites, because as soon as they made the vow to uphold the covenant, they broke it and began to do calf worship at the holy mountain. And that continued all throughout their long rebellious existence as God's people. They were the ones that were bad and perfidious, not God. He on the other hand was very merciful and pardoning the errors of the people, over and over and over and over. He said he was like a husband that was pardoning the error of an adulterous wife. And one that actually was worse than a prostitute. For prostitutes get paid for their harlotry, while the nation of Israel was actually paying out money to false gods and the nations around them, committing spiritual immorality with everything they could conceive.

originally posted by: HKMarrow
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

As far as this whole morality thing goes, doesn't God create continuously, both good and evil? Aren't good and evil always going to subjective from the viewpoint of mankind?

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person who from their own free will decides sin.

"The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;
Righteous and upright is he.
They are the ones who have acted corruptly.
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
They are a crooked and twisted generation!"
-Deuteronomy 32:4-5.

originally posted by: randomuser2034

originally posted by: HKMarrow
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

As far as this whole morality thing goes, doesn't God create continuously, both good and evil? Aren't good and evil always going to subjective from the viewpoint of mankind?

There is nothing impure with God. He is too pure to look on evil. And everything is perfect and good in his creation. He did not create evil. The defect of evil comes from inside the person who from their own free will decides sin.

You sure?

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

a reply to: HKMarrow

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

a reply to: TzarChasm

That's not morality, it's investment, a financial strategy to premium retirement.

Interestingly and succinctly stated. From vague memory though I think that that book does suggest that good action should be it's own reward. Somewhere in it anyway. That goes straight to the no ''good'' people, only ''good'' deeds idea.

You sure?

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jehovah was talking of his power and ability to bring about the accomplishment of his will with regards his people Israel. He was going to give them peace, while bringing calamity upon the Babylonians. He wasn't stating that he was the originator or creator of evil in general in this text.

originally posted by: BingoMcGoof
a reply to: TzarChasm

That's not morality, it's investment, a financial strategy to premium retirement.

Interestingly and succinctly stated. From vague memory though I think that that book does suggest that good action should be it's own reward. Somewhere in it anyway. That goes straight to the no ''good'' people, only ''good'' deeds idea.

😉 👉

a reply to: randomuser2034

Oh, good grief.

originally posted by: randomuser2034]

Jehovah was talking of his power and ability to bring about the accomplishment of his will ...

So, A jealous God is talking about his power, and also abilities?

Please do state the tone of this?

Does Jehovah have a preferred humor style?

Also, let us know if you are tone deaf or not.

Sum of us would like to know if this is only considered ego and pride when in a flesh form.

If it is, should none of us list abilities when looking for jobs?