Have Traditional Left & Right Political Poles Flipped?

Short answer, No.

Explanation:
The "left" and the "right" have been sliding farther left as a whole.
Much of this is due to manipulation by the government and MSM.

Today, people on the right would have been considered left leaning to people on the right 40-50 years ago.

The truth is the far left has always been led by a totalitarian group of people, and it's only getting worse, but for the most part, with everyday issues, people are not as far apart as led to believe.

But hey, anything to keep aforementioned manipulation (the "ballgame" tribal mentality) strong, to keep us divided.

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

I think it would be helpful to not think in terms of left/right, conservative/liberal, republican/democrat, etc. Those are the labels we are given to put us all in neat little boxes and keep us divided.

More accurate labels would be globalist/nationalist. There are those who want the US to be just another state under the jurisdiction of a global government. Then there are those who think the US should be an independent nation and our government should look out for US citizens first. Under the labels in the previous paragraph, you will find globalists and nationalists in each group.

Politically speaking, the globalists are gaining ground. They have weaponized the justice system and the media to attack and denigrate the nationalists to promote the globalist ideology. White people who believe in nationalism are labeled racist. People who want to see America get better are labeled domestic terrorists. It's easy to see more examples of name calling and profiling directed at nationalists.

But what you won't see are globalists coming right out and saying that for their new world order to succeed, America has to get worse. If America were seen as a beacon of liberty and prosperity, then the other nations in the global community would demand of their leadership, "If the Americans can do it, why can't we?"

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: watchitburn
a reply to: quintessentone

That’s BS.

Only about 4 democrats in office switched parties between the 60s and the 90s.

The republicans didn't have a majority in any southern States until the mid 90s.

Democrats have always been racist POS.

Not according to historical accounts and we weren't there.

He gave you facts and you responded with nothing but “nuh-uh”.

This is why people tend to give you a hard time, as you lamented in that other thread.

There’s a group at ATS that does this almost all the time. It gets old. People get annoyed with it.

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

its not that things shifted left, its that government kept politics under control through the media until 1987 after a supreme court ruled it unconstitutional, so through the 90's and beyond lots of diverse ideas spread since speech was no longer being controlled and propaganda could be challenged in a way it never could before. leftist ideas were previously suppressed and being a communist, socialist or whatever leftist party was actually illegal and protests or organized meetings were often met with police or fbi raids.

its not strange that politics would shift left after 40 years or so of leftism being suppressed by the government, you gotta remember before ww2 America was very left leaning and with the start of the war and the previous red scare the government saw socialism and communism as a potential avenue for Nazis or Soviet's to subvert its power, so it over reacted and just banned all of it without understanding the differences between the various leftist parties and nazism and stalin communism or mao communism.

leftism doesn't mean liberal, most Americans forget both the Democrats and Republicans are liberal parties, one focuses on individualist liberalism while Democrats focus on group liberalism, neither is leftist. sure some leftists are part of the democratic party but some are also in the Republican party, its only a matter of time until they separate themselves and leftist parties start challenging the Democrats and Republicans once again.

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: watchitburn
a reply to: quintessentone

That’s BS.

Only about 4 democrats in office switched parties between the 60s and the 90s.

The republicans didn't have a majority in any southern States until the mid 90s.

Democrats have always been racist POS.

Not according to historical accounts and we weren't there.

He gave you facts and you responded with nothing but “nuh-uh”.

This is why people tend to give you a hard time, as you lamented in that other thread.

There’s a group at ATS that does this almost all the time. It gets old. People get annoyed with it.

The fact is that poster nor I were there during those times and the article correctly posted the historical facts, so you can't come along and say that the poster was right and I was wrong. You are nonsensical.

The divide isn't about the old left/right issues.

Now it's about whether people in general have basic rights and who gets to decide those rights?

Nothing is decided by votes or Courts anymore, all these important issues are dealt with through administrative means.

originally posted by: quintessentone

The fact is that poster nor I were there during those times and the article correctly posted the historical facts, so you can't come along and say that the poster was right and I was wrong. You are nonsensical.

They way you post, quintessentone, is what I have an issue with politically. It's if you say enough times and act like it's true, it becomes true.

You say they are historical facts - so you expect that be taken as law.

You aren't the law and the controller of facts. If you have an issue with it or believe it to be true, say why.
But your blanket "the article correctly posted" comment is meaningless.

People use to debate things and usually no one assumed it was the law unless there was a vote or Court case.

Politicians are bypassing controls and becoming the legislator, judge, jury and executioner.
And your posts have the same attitude.

originally posted by: Daughter2


The divide isn't about the old left/right issues.

Now it's about whether people in general have basic rights and who gets to decide those rights?

Nothing is decided by votes or Courts anymore, all these important issues are dealt with through administrative means.

that's how it is until someone challenges it in court or presents a ballot measure, that's less administrative problems and more people not fighting back with their vote or by taking things up with a judge, often either voting for the same people even after they ignore what you want or by settling an issue for monetary compensation without ever taking it all the way.

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

My dad continually told us to never trust the Government nor believe everything that is published on TV and the MSM. Many in the family when he was a kid were in politics and they would tell him and all of us about the on going's in government. One uncle was a former CIA agent who confessed to dad and I that he slit the throats of 5 KGB agents when stationed in Europe. He justified as it was either he or them. He became a lawyer and turned down to run for Governor of New York. Others were judges and in the police.

The stories they told us were incredible.

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

I don' think the actual political poles have changed, but, I think the perception has. Or, perhaps, it would be more accurate to say the political tendencies are not being looked at closely enough to matter.

The left has traditionally been the one who was in favor of slavery and did not want integration of any kind. The right wanted to equal the playing field and sought true equality for all.

Today its the left who will start yipping incessantly whenever there is a mic or a camera present about black this, black that, etc. What isn't being noted, unfortunately, is that the left are still treating minorities as inferior cannon fodder, promising whatever will get them the most votes. After decades of pandering by democrats, are minorities any better off than they used to be? It seems like the inner cities, the biggest concentrations of minorities, are worse than ever. Yet they continue to vote for the people who keep them there, hoping for more and getting nothing in return. I will never understand that. But then again, I never lost the ability to think for myself and read between the lines...

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

A lot more people are becoming "Independents". aka: Flexible minded.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: TurkeyGoose

I've also heard from some old timers that the philosophies of both parties has flipped or reversed over time.

Here is a comparison of philosophies now:

www.diffen.com...

Here is a comparison of philosophies back then:

In 1960, the Civil Rights issue was rolling to the forefront – and it was the large bloc of Southern voters; Democrats, who were violently opposed to Integration and voters rights. In many ways, the Republican Party of 1960 was much more liberal and left-leaning than many of the Democrats at the time.

We sometimes forget the roles of the two parties had almost become reversed by the time the 70s came about. Even as early as 1962, there was a movement afoot to take the Republican Party to a hard right, just as the Democratic party of Kennedy and Johnson were taking the Democratic party to the left of center and distancing themselves from the Dixiecrats of the South, who would eventually drop their party affiliation and head over to the GOP.

pastdaily.com...

with regard to the civil rights thing, the left didn't flip, they just decided rather than fight it, they could use it as a political cudule and milk the minorities for votes, while "keeping them in their place" by making sure they get just enough welfare to keep them in the plantation public housing.

The right has been about teaching a man to fish so they don't have to always give him their leftover bait.

The fishing seems to reflect salmon swimming upstream to a jump a waterfall where the elitists control the height and force of the water at that waterfall. People may learn how to fish but why bother when there aren't any fish left to fish because now the waterfall is too high and the rushing water is too strong for the fish to overcome?

all depends on where you start.

As a defeatist, you will always be oppressed and held back. No matter how many opportunities are handed your way. And for those folks, there is the plantation. For those who want more, there are opportunities. it's my belief that by educating the defeatists, and showing them, their only limitations are their fears, anyone can do better. It's not easy, and nobody promised or guaranteed a breakout win, but with hard work and perseverance, you can do anything, even if you have more melanin than I do.

a reply to: network dude

it's my belief that by educating the defeatists, and showing them, their only limitations are their fears, anyone can do better. It's not easy, and nobody promised or guaranteed a breakout win, but with hard work and perseverance, you can do anything, even if you have more melanin than I do.

Expressed excellent!

We say here "no master ever fell from the sky", meaning to never give up on learning something no matter how hard it may seem, because those that mastered (whatever) went through the same and the skills didn't just appear out of nowhere. They are the result of long trial and error, perseverance and not giving up.

Same is true for work. In this time we have so many opportunities but people play victim rather than get up on their feet and just do it. Taking some risks as in, get out of the comfy environment is part of this. Not just dreaming about dreams, make them possible.

How could we grow if not being exposed to challenges? Instead many fall for envy or say life is unfair and others are at fault for it, somehow. They don't consider the many hours and risk someone put into something. And sometimes it fails, it is part of the journey.

But then we get up, brush away the dirt, lick our wounds and get on with it.

originally posted by: Mahogany
a reply to: TurkeyGoose
The way the sides have changed:

Agreed; liberal extremists have become so close minded that they can no longer have honest conversations with their opposition. Everything always comes back to selectively hearing "White Power" and "Donald Trump for life" in every conversation no mater the topic.

The extremists on the right do this too.

The majority of us in the middle keep our mouths shut because we don't want to be labeled racist or pedophilia by the minority of extremists on ether side.

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

Personal opinion, I feel like I have stayed sort of Left of Centre and watched the Left slip farther Left and the Right swing kind of Left but also a little more to the Right.

Goodness, a really interesting spectrum of thoughts and views here!

To answer one posters query regarding my dad's views, I'd summarise that he's overall 'Old School' Conservative (UK Party). Not a fan of Labour or more socialist policies. I believe this poster may have also misinterpreted what I said regarding Ukraine war, I'm certainly not a Russian backer. I think UK should only be providing humanitarian aid. Save our military budget for ourselves, we might need it soon enough! The posters misinterpretation was easy enough to make, I could've been more precise.

I wonder if the differing viewpoints are as simple as my dad see's my views as being inline with the hippies (for want of a better term!) from his younger days, whereas my brothers think my views resemble Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan etc. who the media tend to portray as on the right.

I'm certainly going to do more research into the specific classification of what makes somebody left or right, from a more historical perspective.

From the views shared by others, I feel a centre right nationalist possibly ticks the box. I voted for Brexit on the sole basis of sovereignty, and stand by this.

I've got some reading to do, thank you all very much!

a reply to: TurkeyGoose

Well ...just saying..the right side of our brain handles the left side....and the left side handles the right side.

We exist in the middle ...

Think THAT thru a bit 🤨

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: TurkeyGoose
Is it perhaps a reflection of how much the younger generation has been Americaniised? In Europe, anyone who was "against the goverment" has historically been left-wing. That's what being left-wing meant. Yet in America being "agin the government" has been a feature of conservatism, something I can only explain as a product of the federal nature of the United States and local patriotism focussed on the individual states. Anyone who values "law and order" feels they get it from local government, and national government only interferes with their freedoms. It's an attitude which ignores the phenomenon of American local tyrannies which can't be restrained from the over-distant centre.

If the internet has encouraged the younger generation to absorb American attitudes and assumptions, that might explain why they think of scepticism of government as a right-wing thing, while your older father recognises it as a tradtional left-wing approach.

The Ukraine waar is a good test. Traditionally, it was the right wing who feared Russia, and only the left thought that resisting Russia was unnecessary. Even the Russians justify themeslves by the charge that Ukraine is fascist, i.e. too right wing. So I too would have thought that being sceptical about the war was a left-wing approach.

The left wing figured out they could get more power by getting into government and using the universities as a springboard for influencing the younger generations(instead of blowing up buildings and setting fire to the schools … you know like Kent State).
However, they have taken again to more violent revolutionary activities such as we have seen in the Antifa and Blm protests and burning of the cities.
Why are these young college kids protesting Israel while Hamas is holding 500 Americans hostage? The only answer can be that they have been radicalized by their Marxist professors.
On the other hand true conservatives believe in our Constitution, first and second amendment rights, liberty and limited government. They believe in the family and free enterprise. Do not mistake RINOS for conservatives.
It’s interesting that HRC stated that she is not a liberal but a Progressive. Why would she say that? Because Progressives are not liberty minded. They only use “rights” when it is convenient to do so for their cause. The same goes for when they want war for some purpose or they want to stop the wars which would put a stop to their totalitarian ideals. Make no mistake … to Progressives, the State is supreme. They are not really anti war but anti whatever puts a stop to their agendas.
Also you mentioned “anyone who values law and order” but then again you say that suddenly conservatives are against government, but this is not a true statement. Is it not conservatives who value law and order in the protective nature of the police? Yet it is the totalitarian progressives who support defunding the police and leaving the borders wide open while promoting mayhem and stealing and burning and looting of the cities.
Yet it is conservatives who refuse to let the State steal their parental rights. It is conservatives who wish to protect their children from predators and the predatory nature of “educators” who believe they themselves have a right to convince young people that they can be the opposite gender if only they will have a double mastectomy and take some potent hormonal cocktail.
Even the average American only a few decades ago would say that is insane.

a reply to: TurkeyGoose



Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains. W.S Churhill/ B Disraeli/various others.


I don't think what you describe is a new thing.
Also these days, you need to split ecomics from socials...Lots of people just do not care for LGBTQ+ etc but do care about worker's pay and conditions.

Explanation: Nope!

Left wing versus Right wing is ONLY about who produces and controls the MONEY ...

Left wingers say it is the STATE ...

Right wingers say it is YOU/ME ...

There are ONLY two players in that game ... YOU/ME OR the STATE!

Personal Disclosure: Get tested ok ...

www.politicalcompass.org...

I am FAR FAR Right wing and slightly Authoritarian ok!



The Authoritarian versus Libertarian axis is all about who OWNS YOU/ME ... YOU/ME [Libertarian] OR the STATE [Authoritarian].

I hope this helps you determine what you actually are according to an independent set standard ok.

IF you take the test then please screengrab the results and upload them to ATS and display them in a post to this thread eh.

P.S. As a FAR Right winger I say that all the money I produce, even if I forge it, is mine and please don't tax it to much unfairly or use those taxes for bull# [like abortion] OR I will tax you back in blood and you wont like it. Simple really!

And as a ideological Libertarian I say that you rule you and I rule me and please don't make me rule over you as I am a very bad Authoritarian ok.

I am all for a small limited [by the constitution] government supporter and I hate big unlimited governments.