Jesus Civilization

Which Civilization has Jesus as its Founding Father?

What raised the question initially was a verse I saw on another thread. It had to do with groups of people who will never be part of the Kingdom of God according to Christian Canon. And there I was in that list. And there isn't anything that I can do to get off that list.

So it's "Oh well, I guess I'll just go out and do every bad thing imaginable and even beyond the imagination, because it doesn't matter anyway, because I have no place in the CCKG (Canonical Christian Kingdom of God)".

But then I reconsidered, "Well it isn't like the CCKG is the only kingdom around. I've been living somewhere. It may not be a kingdom as such, with no king yet. Who knows if a king might yet get elected?"

What I conclude for myself is that no, I don't want to go doing every bad thing. I have come to appreciate civil stability. I have enjoyed its benefits for most of my life. Where did this Civilization come from? Did Jesus found a country? Write a Constitution? Fight for Independence?

I've read the Canonical Christian Gospels a few times, and I don't recall anything like that. To the contrary, he was more like "We'll just love each other for now in this current system and then something else will come about, a New Age."

So did Jesus found a kingdom on Earth? If so where is it? Some may say "Well as long as His people are here then it is here." Okay then, they're a sort of fifth column occupying the so-called "evil current system". But I don't feel like thinking of them in those ways. That could lead to atrocities.

But when we think of them as cultural hangers on to the CCKG, then they are sort of like foreigners; like German speakers in Poland, an excuse for Hitler to liberate parts of Poland, and like Russian speakers in Ukraine as Putin's excuse to liberate parts of Ukraine.

If some foreign kingdom is going to invade us and end our civilization, we should at least consider who this may be and perhaps who may be an actual fifth column working toward our overthrow.

I have heard of some people who fully claim that they will be in the CCKG and also want our civilization to follow each and every rule of the CCKG, and seek to occupy all branches of government to do so. It's like they want all the Evil Worldly power and the prestige yet to come in the CCKG.

That just doesn't seem fair at all. What if they succeed and find out I'm a permanent member of excluded people? They're sure to try to do something about me and the others on that list. And what will they do when they are on the list too?

There is sure to be a purge. All that for yet another failed utopia. I'm thinking civilization should guard against that.

a reply to: pthena

In this world, NONE! Any that says otherwise is a lie.

John 18--
33 So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?” 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” 37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

The Church Triumphant and Invisible is His kingdom on Earth.





I can't imagine a reason why you'd be excluded from being part of God's kingdom, unless you have blasphemed the Holy Spirit - which I understand to mean intentionally and knowingly attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil as did the Pharisees in chapter 12 of the gospel of Matthew.

And, yes, the church is something of a "fifth column," an occupying force in hostile territory; but fear not:

Our fight is not against people on earth. We are fighting against the rulers and authorities and the powers of this world’s darkness. We are fighting against the spiritual powers of evil in the heavenly places. ~Ephesians 6:12 (Easy-to-Read Version)

:

a reply to: incoserv

Yeah. I didn't want to go spilling all the verses.

a reply to: pthena

Why can't you repent? There's nothing stopping you.

Just believe that Jesus died for our sins and was raised on the third day, walk by the Spirit and practice what he taught.

The Church was a manifestation of Jesus' holy kingdom, but it's been largely infiltrated and temporarily subverted. For now the Church is kind of in diaspora.

But when Jesus returns, the kingdom will be fully manifested. He and his angels will separate the wheat from the tares.

a reply to: pthena

Yes! Apolitical Jesus stuff FTW! To current politics anyway.

So did Jesus found a kingdom on Earth? If so where is it?

It took some time to solidify itself.

It's generally agreed upon most texts surrounding him started showing up around 50 CE. Really getting going around 65-70 CE, I've heard his accurate birth year is actually 6-4 BCE (humorously) and death year is 33 CE.

What was Rome like in 33 CE?

A financial crises. A law made creditors invest in land or something and it was an economic downturn year. And Tiberius sucked. The entire Julio-Claudian Dynasty sorta pissed off Judea.

Jesus was the right figure for Judea in 33 CE. Rome sucked. No representation. Forced to pay tribute to Rome. It's a common theme throughout history.

Jesus existed like an Islamic cleric or iman without the bloody mountain coming to Muhammed. A local moral leader with Rome as his Great Satan.

So it began. After his execution for state sedition he became a folk hero and martyr for a free Judea. His cult following began posthumously and by the time of the Flavian Dynasty (Especially Under Domitian) they were calling the emperor the antichrist and writing Revelations.

His following started in the Eastern part of The Roman empire and existed as a counter to Roman imperialism... It grew in popularity and spread and by the time of Constantine you have your first official "Land of Jesus", The Byzantine Empire formally known as Rome.

That's my answer.

Personal question - Did I catch you were an Army Chaplain at one point? I swear you alluded to that in another thread..

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: incoserv

Yeah. I didn't want to go spilling all the verses.

You want an answer to a question fundamental to the nature and character of the church of Jesus Christ, but you don't want to "go spilling all the verses?"

That's like saying you want to calculate the ciurcumfrence of a circle but you don't want to go spilling all the math. Or like saying you want a rare rib-eye, but you don't want to go spilling all the beef.

No can do. You asked an honest question, I gave you an honest answer.

:

a reply to: incoserv

What happened is I almost broke a vow that I had made to myself a few years ago; to never teach Christianity to Christians again. I got close, but hit that wall. Quite impenetrable; I've got no place there.

The Christian God might not mind if I broke that vow, but I would.

The infiltrators, the fifth column is discussed at some length in this 2016 article, Dominionism Rising: A Theocratic Movement Hiding in Plain Sight. Pretty long. But then their history is pretty long.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: incoserv

What happened is I almost broke a vow that I had made to myself a few years ago; to never teach Christianity to Christians again. I got close, but hit that wall. Quite impenetrable; I've got no place there.

The Christian God might not mind if I broke that vow, but I would.

The infiltrators, the fifth column is discussed at some length in this 2016 article, Dominionism Rising: A Theocratic Movement Hiding in Plain Sight. Pretty long. But then their history is pretty long.

I'm not even sure what that vow means, but you have to deal with that.

As to talk of "dominionsim," that's a movement. Plenty of movements over the last 2,000 years have claimed to be Christian. That does not make them to be the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Here, I'll spill some more verses. In the fourth chapter of John:

21 Jesus said, “Believe me, woman! The time is coming when you will not have to be in Jerusalem or on this mountain to worship the Father. 22 You Samaritans worship something you don’t understand. We Jews understand what we worship, since salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. In fact, that time is now here. And these are the kind of people the Father wants to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit. So the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Jesus' Kingdom is about spirit and truth.There's no way around that. This short essay may (or may not) be helpful.

Don't overly complicate the issue.

a reply to: pthena

There is sure to be a purge. All that for yet another failed utopia. I'm thinking civilization should guard against that.

i don't think you realize who your suggesting civilization should guard against. He wiped out all the human race at least once. what makes you think that civilization has progressed enough to keep Him from doing it again?

in fact he even said things would be worse than in Noah's day, and he would still come and condemn those who in their heart say there is no God, and save the elect, that is those that have accepted Jesus as the last blood sacrifice for our sins

a reply to: incoserv

As to talk of "dominionsim," that's a movement. Plenty of movements over the last 2,000 years have claimed to be Christian. That does not make them to be the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

That might not make them the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, but it sure doesn't stop them from attempting to take over the World or the country politically. Which is really all I care about. Because this is my only life, in my only World.

a reply to: BernnieJGato

WORD!

a reply to: pthena

So did Jesus found a kingdom on Earth?

Most certainly, though not of his own hands. We call it Western civilization. Once it was known as Christendom.

It is no longer religious in its essential character but it remains at its roots the civilization that Christian remnants of the collapsed Roman Empire founded in Western Europe from the third century onward, and which has now spread to cover the whole world. It is by far the most successful civilization in history.

The historian Tom Holland has gone thoroughly over this proposition in his book Dominion. One need not agree with everything he says in order to be convinced by its thesis.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: incoserv

As to talk of "dominionsim," that's a movement. Plenty of movements over the last 2,000 years have claimed to be Christian. That does not make them to be the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

That might not make them the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, but it sure doesn't stop them from attempting to take over the World or the country politically. Which is really all I care about. Because this is my only life, in my only World.

That's where we differ.

This is not my only life nor my only world. Now, that does not make this life or this world insignificant or unimportant or secondary. As a matter of fact, it makes this life and this world all the more important and weighty as what I do here, how I serve both God and those around me, has a bearing on that life and that world that I know is to come.

If all you have is this life and this world, what does it matter? You eat, drink and be merry and tomorrow you die. Do what you will. There are no repercussions, no permanent results or effects. There is no transcendent law. If you want to do whatever it is that you call "good," do it; but remember that every culture, every historical epoch, every context has a different definition of good, so in the end the person with the biggest stick, the most guns defines what "good" is.

My "good" is fixed. I know in whom I have believed, I know what is required of me, and that mandate transcends cultures, historical context, time, space, and your and my opinion:

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? ~Micah 6:8

Jesus said that many would come in his name. You are letting yourself become confused.

:

a reply to: BernnieJGato

i don't think you realize who your suggesting civilization should guard against. He wiped out all the human race at least once.

The Christian Nationalists weren't around back then. And Archeology seems to indicate that civilization didn't end in about 2,800 B.C.E. or thereabouts.

and he would still come and condemn those who in their heart say there is no God, and save the elect, that is those that have accepted Jesus as the last blood sacrifice for our sins

Well okay then, if those elect are going to be saved, then they should be satisfied with that, and not try to rule the World that they think is going to get destroyed any way.

a reply to: Astyanax

But even that "kingdom," that socio-political construct is destined to fail, and is still fraught with corruption. If it is Jesus' kingdom, he is a poor king.

His kingdom is at hand, what some refer to as "the already not yet.

a reply to: Degradation33

Did I catch you were an Army Chaplain at one point? I swear you alluded to that in another thread

No. I was an Elder in a congregation of Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). Very liberal. More liberal than me. When my first wife and I joined, the Pastor was at a conference and the fill-in was a Lady Pastor that he used to date in High School.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Why can't you repent? There's nothing stopping you.

Repentance can't get me off the excluded list. My sins exist as long as others live. I'm not about to ask for admittance into a kingdom if it means others must die, (2 people in particular) and that's all I'll say about that.

The list of excluded is on your own thread.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: BernnieJGato

i don't think you realize who your suggesting civilization should guard against. He wiped out all the human race at least once.

The Christian Nationalists weren't around back then. And Archeology seems to indicate that civilization didn't end in about 2,800 B.C.E. or thereabouts.

and he would still come and condemn those who in their heart say there is no God, and save the elect, that is those that have accepted Jesus as the last blood sacrifice for our sins

Well okay then, if those elect are going to be saved, then they should be satisfied with that, and not try to rule the World that they think is going to get destroyed any way.

Gonna spill some more verses:

We are told that the world is, for a predetermined time, under the authority of "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:2)

Even Satan himself admitted that authority over the world had been given to him.

Luke 4:6 ~ and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.

The church triumphant and invisible knows this. We are an occupying force, waging war against the one who is known as "the god of this world." This does not put the church on defensive, nor does it mean that we are at a loss. A passage in the eighth chapter of the letter to the church at Rome spells this out:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

We are to occupy. When our commander-in-chief comes, all will be redeemed. The battle is fierce for now, but the war is won. It was won when the stone rolled away from the tomb, though the forces of darkness didn't know it yet, as we are told in 1 Corinthians 2:

6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

:

Made up stuff from people isnt real ok

a reply to: pthena

Only one had to die to get you off of any list, and he did die - and defeated the power of death and the grave "by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him." Colossians 2

Unless you have intentionally, willfully and with malice aforethought attributed the work of the Holy Spirit to demons, there is nothing but YOUR VERY OWN STUBBORN PRIDE keeping you from repentence.

: