Going to Heaven

originally posted by: TTU77
You said that we are the 144,000 Jews in spirit, not in flesh.

The bible says, we are baptized into one spirit in Christ - aka the body of Christ.

How then can the one spirit, be divided into 12 tribes of Israel, which the 144,000 are. 12K from each tribe.

I'll have a look at what you wrote, but at the moment this occurred to me.

Also, you do realize, not even 1 percent of "Christians" believs what you are proposing, right?

Whenever I hold onto a belief, that might vary from the mainstream thought, like aliens are fallen angels, etc, I usually try to add the caveat, these are my believs etc, based on interpretation on text. Do you ever feel the need to do the same concerning these "fringe" theories?

With all respect. Cheers.

It is not what I say that matters. God's word is what holds the authority.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise."-Galatians 3:28-29.

Jehovah inspired Paul to write that if you belong to Christ, you are the real offspring of Abraham, being a Jew or a Greek, or a slave or a freeman in the flesh means nothing.

That is why he wrote at Romans 9:6:

"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.”"-Romans 9:6.

This is not something I came up with. This is what the inspired scripture of truth reveals.

Also, the Bible clearly tells us that all humankind is being mislead by Satan the Devil at Revelation 12:9.

And Jesus said that broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction and many are on it. Whereas narrow and cramped is the road leading to life and few have found it, fewer still are on it. So the fact that not many believe what scripture says, and fewer still apply what it says in their lives is proof of God's approval on the Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, not the other way around.

"Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."-Matthew 7:13-14.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

*rolls eyes* here we go again.

From what I understand of the OP, the 144,000 are the number of Saved in Heaven, correct?

Op of course is one of them I presume.

a reply to: randomuser

If you were only to open your eyes to see the truth many of you would become ashamed of yourselves. Because I see earnestness, and a desire to please God. And he no doubt is patiently calling toward the righteous heart to listen to his word.

That is remarkably patronising, I find it deeply offensive.

I have laid out specific Biblical reasons why you are wrong to depend on the Jewish conception of the metaphysical truth/untruth of Heaven, or the Everlasting, and all you can do is retreat into the supposed authority of your 'church' & patronise me saying that I'm clearly not a real Christian.

I think that seeing as you would prefer to listen to the ravings of first century Jews over the testimony of millions of Christian believers in Protestant & Catholic denominations since the Ascension of Christ Himself, it is clear that your 'church' has no respect for the true nature of God, as you cannot seem to find a place for the Holy Spirit to exist in your religious life.

a reply to: randomuser

It is not what I say that matters

As they say in Ecuador: "The fish is caught by its own mouth.."

a reply to: randomuser

Rev. 12;9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is speaking of the future and of "The world" being deceived by Satan.
Not by any means does it refer to we who are in Christ while being in the world.
We are set a part from the world. Speaking in terms of this world as it belongs
to Satan.

It makes sense to me that the gate for believers. Wouldn't need the width of
the gate for the rest of the world.

"Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."

Christ is the way

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: randomuser

That is remarkably patronising, I find it deeply offensive.

We may be offended by what others have said to us. But consider this advice: “Better is one who is patient than one who is haughty in spirit. Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones.” (Ecclesiastes 7:8,9)

Those who are quick to take offense and who nurture grudges “in the bosom” give evidence of being haughty. Especially dangerous, however, is a dominantly proud or haughty “spirit.” It causes those possessing it to resent valid criticism, correction or discipline, in fact, to reject the counsel of God’s Word.* This leads them into following a way of life that is bound to bring ruin to themselves. The Bible proverb aptly puts it: “A man repeatedly reproved but making his neck hard will suddenly be broken, and that without healing.” (Prov. 29:1)

*: “For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.” (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: randomuser

I have laid out specific Biblical reasons why you are wrong to depend on the Jewish conception of the metaphysical truth/untruth of Heaven, or the Everlasting, ...

If you are referring to your comment on the previous page, perhaps it would help if you quoted a bit more from the Bible, when 'laying out those Biblical reasons'. Then it becomes a bit clearer what specific "Biblical reasons" or Bible teachings you are referring to, preferrably with a reference to which exact text so that it can be discussed. It seems your primary or main argumentation concerning the subject you mentioned (heaven), revolves more around extrabiblical reasons (the experiences of those whom you describe as "prophets", "pastors & evangelists" and "mature & experienced witnesses with many wise counselors", and "their [extrabiblical] writings"). You also seem to either misunderstand Randomuser's position on the existence of heaven, or for some other reason are not actually responding to it as if you understand his position and views regarding that subject. When you say things like "Heaven is a very real place", it sounds like you're responding to Randomuser as if you think he believes it isn't. It's weird, to say the least, cause it's obvious that's not what he believes. Similarly weird as claiming that he depends "on the Jewish conception of the metaphysical truth/untruth of Heaven, or the Everlasting"(which I'm not sure exactly what it is you are referring to). Just as it's unclear when Randomuser brought up "the ravings of first century Jews" (surely you are not referring to the first century Jewish Christians who wrote the Christian Greek Scriptures, what you refer to as the New Testament? Since those were the ones quoted by Randomuser in his commentary) or demonstrated that he 'preferred to listen to' those. Which "ravings of first century Jews" are you referring to that Randomuser listens to? Or in other words, takes his information about heaven from? Or the related subject in relation to what happens at death, the soul, what is a soul? Is it immaterial/spiritual, intangible, invisible, and immortal, as the Pagan Greek philosophers like Plato taught?

“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.

“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.

“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.

In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy·kheʹ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·kheʹ and neʹphesh (Hebrew), as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.

For a long list of examples from the Scriptures concerning that subject:

Soul (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

For a shorter overview:

Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal
Myth 2: The Wicked Suffer in Hell

And then we get to this subject:
Myth 3: All Good People Go to Heaven

There's always more of course:

Soul (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2)
Spirit (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2)
Spirit (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

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What is the holy spirit?

A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.

Jesus also referred to the holy spirit as a “helper” (Greek, pa·raʹkle·tos), and he said that this helper would “teach,” “bear witness,” “speak,” and ‘hear.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Rom. 5:14, 21) While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.

The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.—Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31.

See also pages 406, 407, under the heading “Trinity.”

What gives evidence that a person really has the holy spirit, or “the Holy Ghost” (KJ)?

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