Lessons from Masonry w/o Supreme Being?

What can one learn from Freemasonry, if one doesn't subscribe to any sort of religion at all and can't attest to beleif in any supreme being?

My understanding, as has been stated by people familiar with the subject, is that I almost definitely can't get into masonry in the first place without such beleif. And that I would find masonry to be rather useless, since its centered around that core beleif.

Is my understanding correct?

To use an architectural/egineering analogy, that beleif is the foundation upon which the whole 'structure' of the benefits of being a mason is built (like piousness, charity, service to others, virtue, etc etc).

Good question Nygdan, and yes your understanding is correct.

As you say, someone who can't attest to a belief in a Supreme Being can't join regular freemasonry, so ipso facto wouldn't get anything out of it. Freemasonry is a System of Morality, teaching moral lessons by allegory based on biblical teachings. Without a belief in a Supreme Being the lessons are meaningless, although to be fair the morality can be enjoyed by everyone.

In other words, IMO, masonry teaches that morality is divinely inspired. For the Christian, this means emulate Jesus - do what he has instructed and you won't go far wrong.

An atheist, not believing in any God, would regard the morality of the Bible as man-inspired. Masonry has nothing to offer this person, as the entire structure of Freemasonry has been built on the foundation of God's word. If you can't relate to the following passage, from the 'Charge to the Initiate' in Emulation Ritual, then Masonry's not for you.

"As a Freemason, let me recommend to your most serious contemplation the Volume of Sacred Law; charging you to consider it as the unerring standard of truth and justice and to regulate your actions by the divine precepts it contains. Therein you will be taught the important duties you owe to God, to your, neighbour and to yourself. To God, by never mentioning His name but with that awe and reverence which are due from the creature to his Creator, by imploring His aid in all your lawful undertakings, and by looking up to Him in every emergency for comfort and support."

I should add that over time a number of Grand Lodges around the world have decided to relax the requirement to believe in a Supreme Being. Consequently these Grand Lodges are not 'recognised' by mainstream freemasonry and freemasons may not visit them, or their members visit us.

However, for an atheist who for some reason wants to join freemasonry this would be a perfect vehicle.

I would think then that agnostics don't fit into regular masonry then? Ie people who would say that one cannot know anything about a creator god, even if it exists or not?

Or perhaps the labels are distracting, and its based around being able to answer honestly in the affirmative 'do you beleive in a supreme being'?

FM doesn't try and tell you how to define Supreme Being. So if you believe in a mysterious force from the nth dimension that is controlling life on earth, or you believe that God-like creatures created the earth and watch over us still, and you can honestly define them as 'A Supreme Being' (just the one) then that's fine. There's a trust element here which starts before you join and runs through your masonic career, but ultimately, like I said, if you can't go along with biblical morality being divinely inspired you will find masonry uninspiring and hollow.

Agnostics may find something in masonry. It's not about whether or not you can ever know God, you just need to believe he exists.

Or perhaps the labels are distracting, and its based around being able to answer honestly in the affirmative 'do you beleive in a supreme being'?

Exactly. You will tell me if I start to waffle won't you?

For example, Freemasonsy showcases Zoroastrianism in its 32nd degree.

It was the first religion to have equal Gods of good and evil.

But I don't believe it. In my opinion, every 'being' is fallen, and there is only a Supreme Force.

By fallen, I mean fallen into the physical dimension, or into other non-divine source (other dimensions, wherein beings would appear as Gods to us).

So what makes me so immoral I can't be allowed into a fraternal society, or so closed minded that I could learn nothing from it?

Akilles

What are you talking about? Whether Zoroastrianism is or isn't an influence in the development of one or more of the degrees seems to be somewhat off-topic. Many people believe there are Ancient Egyptian influences in the Craft, but the bottom line is that the ritual teaches us Christian values based on Bible stories. If you don't understand this go to one of the exposee sites and read Craft ritual - it's blindingly obvious what it's all about.

If a zoroastrian believes in 2 equal supreme beings then he can't join. Freemasonry is a supporter of monotheism and encourages members to follow their own chosen path.

So what makes me so immoral I can't be allowed into a fraternal society, or so closed minded that I could learn nothing from it?

This is a very good question.Freemasonry doesn't say atheists are immoral at all, but it works on the basis that...

(a) God exists
(b) The morality and lessons found in the Holy Book are divinely inspired

Why an atheist would want to join such an organisation is quite beyond me. They'll be going to church next


[edit, 'play nice gentlemen' - nygdan]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by Nygdan]

Hmm, thats all very interesting. I had been aware that freemasonry has a more or less christian origin (certainly the 'operative' freemasons were almost exlcusively christians no?), but I hadn't realized that it focuses on it today. I'd think that jews and muslims would be able to work with this 'bible context', since, well, they all share the context. But does it ever result in problems with non-judeao-christian members? I'd think that ritual isn't modified, but that there is discussion of ritual amoungst members no? And that in these discussions the non 'people of the book' are able to interpret and analogize the lessons into their own context?

Again Nygdan you are pretty much spot on. The Abrahamic religions are quite comfortable with the stories as they are all based on Old Testament. However the moral lessons are universal, and so there would be very few monotheists that wouldn't fit in very well (Luciferians would be a good example).

Very little has changed since the ritual was codified in the early 18th century, in England it was revised in the early 19th century but the basic lessons weren't altered. A third degree will tell the same story the world over.

The ritual was deliberately dechristianised to allow adherents to other faiths to join, but is still quite recognisably Christian in origin. I have a Hindu in my lodge who, although he took his obligation on his own holy book, recognised instantly that the practice of moral virtue is entirely in keeping with his own faith.

[edited for typo]

[edit on 11-4-2005 by Trinityman]

WTF?

I know about Zoroastrianism, and I know it is taught symbolically in the 32 degree.

So tell me, what would I learn from Freemasonry in the case (as it were) that I don't believe God to be a being, or a being to be Supreme.

I mean, tell me specifically, please!

Originally posted by akilles
WTF?

I know about Zoroastrianism, and I know it is taught symbolically in the 32 degree.

So tell me, what would I learn from Freemasonry in the case (as it were) that I don't believe God to be a being, or a being to be Supreme.

I mean, tell me specifically, please!

Do your own research, Akilles. Masonry teaches a lot of things a lot of different ways, and it's up to each individual to decipher the mysteries and come up with his own interpretation. You might learn some things, you might not learn others. It's just not likely that the lessons will MEAN ANYTHING to you spiritually without a belief in a supreme being.

Originally posted by akilles
So tell me, what would I learn from Freemasonry in the case (as it were) that I don't believe God to be a being, or a being to be Supreme.

I mean, tell me specifically, please!

Specifically, you would learn nothing, as you wouldn't be a member. I've gone through all this already. If you can't affirm a belief in a Supreme Being you can't join.

Ask me another

Originally posted by akillesBut I don't believe it. In my opinion, every 'being' is fallen, and there is only a Supreme Force.

But it would seem to be that one could indeed have this sort of beleif system, since it has some sort of thing that is supreme no?

What do you mean by a Supreme Force tho? Like in some sort of teleology that motivates/animates everything? Or do you mean an actual super force?

Zoroastrianism permiates throughout the Scottish Rite, not just in the 32nd degree, in many ways it is the REAL religion of Freemasonry.
As I've mentioned before the 32nd Degree is a summary of the entire rite, there is no further learning after the 30th Degree.
Likewise the 31st degree is a "Judicial" decree although it has a lot of back reference to the 2nd degree in association with its emphasis on "Wisdom."

Athiests CAN join Grand Orient Lodges and they DO associate with so called "regular" Lodges just in the same way as blacks who are members of Prince Hall Lodges do, they just can't participate in Scottish Rite or York Rite assemblies in areas where the members are intolerant of their beliefs (or the colour of their skin etc...)

However what constitues an athiest is a bit of an open book really, for instance Budhists don't believe in a "Supreme Being" yet I doubt most people would refer to them as athiests.
Likewise genuine agnostics would probably not be welcome in a Lodge as would true nihilists.
Communist styled athiesm is compatible with Freemasonry in that it has a supreme being in the form of the collective.

All of this really counts for nothing in my experience though, if they think you are susceptible then they will have you no matter who you are or what you believe.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Athiests CAN join Grand Orient Lodges and they DO associate with so called "regular" Lodges just in the same way as blacks who are members of Prince Hall Lodges do, they just can't participate in Scottish Rite or York Rite assemblies in areas where the members are intolerant of their beliefs (or the colour of their skin etc...)

Nothing you have said above has any merit, Necros, and you know it. Stop spreading lies.

All of this really counts for nothing in my experience though, if they think you are susceptible then they will have you no matter who you are or what you believe.

I am so absolutely sick to death of your lies. You are abolustely LAUGHABLE. If you don't want to be a mason, WE DON'T WANT YOU. So get the delusions out of your head. Nobody tried forcing you to become a mason, and your relatives are not masons either. Stop accusing them of being something theyre not, just because you are delirious and paranoid.

Is the only way to stop ONE member ruining an ENTIRE board be enough reason to global (or atleast mult-individual) ignore? I think so.

And its not Necros I'm talking about.

I believe that everything comes from the same source, and it is only where everything comes from, or returns to, that is truly supreme. Nothing in this world, so to speak.

No supreme being, in other words.

All beings are equal, and any other belief seems to have resulted in the divisive state we currrently experience, which is all about making people see how "You agreed with me all along, you just didn't know it", or "You are not using my definition of ...." and "Thats not the argument here"

The last comment specifically was raised (in this thread!) in concern as to why the content matter of the 32 degree matters! Why not tell us exactly what it is about, and what symbolism it uses, instead of saying, "Trust me, its not relevant."

Dear MrExplodingToilet

Zoroastrianism permiates throughout the Scottish Rite, not just in the 32nd degree, in many ways it is the REAL religion of Freemasonry.
As I've mentioned before the 32nd Degree is a summary of the entire rite, there is no further learning after the 30th Degree.
Likewise the 31st degree is a "Judicial" decree although it has a lot of back reference to the 2nd degree in association with its emphasis on "Wisdom."

As a self-appointed expert in the higher degree work within the Scottish Rite, please do tell us just exactly how you have managed to reach the conclusions you have.

Athiests CAN join Grand Orient Lodges and they DO associate with so called "regular" Lodges...

Yes, there are some irregular Grand Lodges who admit atheists. That's why they're called Irregular. Are you seeing a pattern yet? They do not associate masonically with regular Grand Lodges.

... for instance Budhists don't believe in a "Supreme Being" yet I doubt most people would refer to them as athiests.

Candidates are asked if they believe in a Supreme Being. If they say 'yes' then they are eligible to join. If they say 'no' then they're not. It's not up to you, me, freemasonry or Mr. Armitage Shanks to tell anyone what their personal belief is or how it works. If a Buddhist regards himself as eligible that's up to him.

All of this really counts for nothing in my experience though, if they think you are susceptible then they will have you no matter who you are or what you believe.

What do you mean by this? Susceptible to what - learning morality?

Originally posted by akilles
No supreme being, in other words.

That's your opinion. Countless millions of people disagree with you.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Zoroastrianism permiates throughout the Scottish Rite, not just in the 32nd degree, in many ways it is the REAL religion of Freemasonry.

When you say it permeates it tho, do you mean is substance or in symbol?
Perhaps its not too surprising, also, that since the zoroaster/mithras cults were early competitors of christianity, that there should be borrowings from its 'forms' for masonry? But what zoroasterian ethics or moral lessons does masonry support and advance tho, if its more than just symbols and practices?

Athiests CAN join Grand Orient Lodges and they DO associate with so called "regular" Lodges

This and the prince hall bit is intersting. Thanks for the info.

akilles
Is the only way to stop ONE member ruining an ENTIRE board be enough reason to global (or atleast mult-individual) ignore? I think so.

The 'ruining a thread' thing can go both ways. If someone is ruining threads for you, then you can put them on your ignore list. And vice versa.

Also, lets keep the discussion about the substance, not each other.

For example, does the 32nd degree invovle recapitulation of the other degrees and use zoroasterian symbology? Also, how exactly does one distinguish between zoroasterian/christian/mithraic/mystery rituals anyway? I recall reading that the some of the Mystery Cults in ancient Rome had a ritual wherein the faithful would gather in a mass, and the culmination of it was the holding of a shaft of wheat to the faithful, which is surprisingly similar to the sunday mass and use of the eucharist.

So how does one say one thing is christian and another is zoroasterian? In the mystery mass above, there's no faith in jesus, in the christian mass, there is. So how can one say that a particular thing in masonry is zoroasterian, without actual faith and worship of zoroaster or readings of the Gathas and the like?

Folks

All this talk of different religions is entirely missing the point. Freemasonry is a system of morality open to members of all monotheistic faiths. As long as the lessons are applicable to any given faith then it doesn't matter where the origins are. That is only of any interest to masonic historians.

The information that I have stated to date regarding freemasonry is verifyable fact. In contast to this (in fact sometimes in direct conflict to it) has been posted supposition, extrapolation, invention, wishful thinking and general misinformation and mis-direction.

How non-members of any organisation feel they can possibly know more than a member of over 10 years experience is beyond belief? In any other situation and with any other organisation it would be blindingly obvious that an experienced member will know more.

Some perspective is required. Luckily, having read widely on this forum I have the greatest confidence that the average ATS reader is more than capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff.

The boring truth is that freemasonry has no place on this forum. There's no secret society, no conspiracy and no ties with the so called Illuminati or NWO. But human nature being what it is, something will continue to be seen where nothing exists.

I guess it all boils down to who do you believe.