Evolution is a product of encoded information not anything natural

Evolution is a product of encoded information in DNA and error correcting codes to protect this information as it's being copied. This has nothing to do with anything natural. If it was natural, you would never get any species because DNA would be overrun with errors. Encoding and decoding systems are designed to overcome the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It's not about an open or closed system. Entropy naturally destroys encoded information as it's being copied. This is why you need error correcting codes to reduce these errors. Without error correcting codes there's no evolution.

Let's look at what Hubert Yockey showed us in his book Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life. Darwinist are fond of saying it's not really a code, it's just like a code. We use all of the language of information theory which gives us tools to build modern civiliztion are in the genome. Yockey said:

“Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies.” (Hubert P. Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, Cambridge University Press, 2005)
evo2.org...

These things are not analogies. They're isomorphic to an encoding/decoding system. We use these systems to build modern civilization. For instance, a DVD is encoded with information and the DVD player is designed to decode that information and play the movie. Computer code is HTMl or Java languages encoded with information and the computer is designed to decode that information. Everytime you see encoding/decoding systems where sequences are encoded with information and there's machinery to decode that information it comes from intelligence. Here's more:

Code is defined as the rules of communication between an encoder (a “writer” or “speaker”) and a decoder (a “reader” or “listener”) using agreed upon symbols.

DNA’s definition as a literal code (and not a figurative one) is nearly universal in the entire body of biological literature since the 1960’s.

DNA code has much in common with human language and computer languages

DNA transcription is an encoding / decoding mechanism isomorphic with Claude Shannon’s 1948 model: The sequence of base pairs is encoded into messenger RNA which is decoded into proteins.

Information theory terms and ideas applied to DNA are not metaphorical, but in fact quite literal in every way. In other words, the information theory argument for design is not based on analogy at all. It is direct application of mathematics to DNA, which by definition is a code
evo2.org...

Yockey even drew a schematic that shows how DNA from the gene to the polypeptide chain is code being copied and sent through a communication channel.



So from the gene to the polypeptide chain, encoded information is being copied. If this encoded information isn't protected through error correcting codes then nothing can evolve. DNA would be overrun with errors.

These codes are arbitrary, not natural. This is because information isn't in the sequence, the sequence is put in place as a code to transmit the information.

Let me say that again:

These codes are arbitrary, not natural. This is because information isn't in the sequence, the sequence is put in place as a code to transmit the information.

So there has to be an encoder of information. Our intelligence can encode any sequence with information. Like I said, it's arbitrary as opposed to natural. Something natural responds to it's environment like ice melting or rust on a car. My intelligence can encode almost anything with information because it's arbitrary.

I can say, if a piece of typing paper is cut into two pieces then meet me at Subway on 4th street downtown at 4 p.m. but if the typing paper is cut into four pieces, meet me at Chipotle on MLK Drive at 5 p.m.

I have just encoded information on the sequence of a piece of typing paper. Nobody would say that the typing paper put itself in a sequence and encoded that sequence with information. The typing paper is a storage medium and doesn't know anything about subway, chipotle, downtown or 5 p.m. This is the same as DNA. DNA is a powerful storage medium that we can encode with information like books and movies. At Harvard, they encoded 70 billion books on a drop of DNA.

Harvard stores 70 billion books using DNA
Research team stores 5.5 petabits, or 1 million gigabits, per cubic millimeter in DNA storage medium
www.computerworld.com...

Again, DNA is the most powerful storage medium we have ever seen and people really think this comes from a puddle of mud and a few lightning strikes?

Look at the genetic code:


The 3 letter sequences or codons ACTG are nucleotide bases and A is always paired with T and C is always paired with G. This same code is in all species and codes for 20 amino acids and has start and stop codons that tell gene sequences when to start being read and when to stop being read. How does nature give meaning to a sequence to start reading coded information?

Look at the genetic code that codes for the amino acid Valine(VAL). They're four 3 letter sequences of codons that code for valine. This is a level of error correction called redundancy. This is a product of reason and logic not anything natural.

If I say, XTG is coded for the word dog and I sent XTG through a communication channel where it will be copied, there will be errors. In computers it's called bit flips, in DNA it's called point mutations. These errors may accumulate on average every 20 times I send the code. So I add code to it and now XTG, XTY, XTX and XTA = dog instead of just XTG and it may go through on average of 200 times or more before errors. This is just one layer of error correction. The genetic code has the same thing. Why would anything natural encode sequence with information and then build machinery to decode that sequence?

Something natural would be nucleotide bases falling in a puddle of mud and lightning strikes creating the condition for these bases to put themselves in a sequence for some reason and then through the magic mud they encode that sequence with rules, regulations and instructions! TOM FOOLERY!

Remember, the sequence is the storage medium and doesn't contain any information. It's arbitrary, not natural. I can say if there's 2 chairs around the table, call me on my work phone at 5 p.m. but if it's 4 chairs around the table call me on my cell phone at 6 p.m. I have encoded the sequence of chairs around a table with information that can be decoded by another intelligent mind or I can build machinery to decode it. The chairs and the table know nothing about its sequence or what a cell phone or work phone means. Just like DNA sequence doesn't contain information about the arrangement of amino acids on a polypeptide chain or about a genetic code or redundancy. It's a powerful storage medium that intelligence encoded with information.

CONT'D

So evolution doesn't occur naturally. If it happened naturally, DNA would be overrun with errors and you wouldn't get any species. Naturedestroys information as it's being copied, that's why you need error correcting codes. Error correction goes against nature in order to protect encoded information as it's copied.

So what's naturally evolving? Species just propigate the code through reproduction. We all carry the same code that has coded for the same amino acids for billions of years. This code can be expressed differently. If you have 100 websites all coded in HTML, then the 100 websites would all contain HTML code but they all can look different because the way the codes are expressed.

So it's a highly intelligently designed code that encoded on the sequence of a storage medium and protected by error correcting codes that control evolution not anything natural.

Like Psalms 139:14 says, we're fearfully and wonderfully made by our Creator.

"evolution is a product...not anything natural" as the title says. man is a commodity, and the engineers are something unnatural. i am loathe to jump conclusions here so...

product: a substance manufactured for sale

unnatural: artiicial, abnormal, contrary to the ordinary course of nature

therefor something abnormal and contrary to nature made evolution to build and sell people

originally posted by: neoholographic
It's not about an open or closed system. Entropy naturally destroys encoded information as it's being copied. This is why you need error correcting codes to reduce these errors. Without error correcting codes there's no evolution.

You lost me at the end of your first paragraph.
IF these "error correcting codes" existed, then wouldn't that prevent evolution. The codes would in theory prevent any changes.

I prefer the cymatic evolutionary theory, where cellular change is induced through vibrational frequency

Yes I agree with this. Good thread! I just wrote one today on the grey's decaying genome because they are copies.

The Bible suggests that the formation of our different body parts​—and even the timing of their formation—​involves a figurative book that originates with God. Notice how King David was inspired to describe matters, saying of God: “Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing, as regards the days when they were formed and there was not yet one among them.”​—Psalm 139:16.

It is not far-fetched to compare DNA to a book. In fact, one book about the genome notes: “The idea of the genome as a book is not, strictly speaking, even a metaphor. It is literally true. A book is a piece of digital information . . . So is a genome.” The author adds: “The genome is a very clever book, because in the right conditions it can both photocopy itself and read itself.” (Genome​—The Autobiography of a Species in 23 Chapters, by Matt Ridley, 1999, pp. 7-8.) That brings up another important aspect of DNA.

...

MACHINES IN MOTION

As you stand there in the quiet, you find yourself wondering if the nucleus of a cell is really as still as a museum. Then you notice another display. Above a glass case containing a length of model DNA is a sign that reads: “Push Button for Demonstration.” You push the button, and a narrator explains: “DNA has at least two very important jobs. The first is called replication. DNA has to be copied so that every new cell will have a complete copy of the same genetic information. Please watch this simulation.”

Through a door at one end of the display comes a complex-looking machine. It is actually a cluster of robots closely linked together. The machine goes to the DNA, attaches itself, and begins to move along the DNA as a train might follow a track. It moves a little too fast for you to see exactly what it is doing, but you can easily see that behind it, there are now two complete DNA ropes instead of one.

The narrator explains: “This is a greatly simplified version of what goes on when DNA is replicated. A group of molecular machines called enzymes travel along the DNA, first splitting it in two, then using each strand as a template to make a new, complementary strand. We cannot show you all the parts involved​—such as the tiny device that runs ahead of the replication machine and snips one side of the DNA so that it can twirl around freely instead of getting wound up too tight. Nor can we show you how the DNA is ‘proofread’ several times. Errors are detected and corrected to an amazing degree of accuracy.”​—See the diagram on pages 16 and 17.

...

Source: QUESTION 3 Where Did the Instructions Come From? (The Origin of Life—Five Questions Worth Asking)

Since I can't easily copy-paste the diagrams (the pictures from the article):

Context (playlist): Molecular Visualizations of DNA (packaging, replication, transcription, translation)

a reply to: datguy

Try to catch up on a little factual biology (rather than so-called "evolutionary biology"), it'll help in these type of discussions:

The following video follows up on my previous comment (which also talks about the error-detection and correction systems in a living cell briefly in the article; the video below I'm sharing because of the quotations from the article in the section “WRITTEN IN A WAY THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND”, starting at 2:54, as it relates to my points about the term "book" used to describe the genome which in turn relates to points in the OP about the term "code" not being a metaphor or analogy, it's not like a code, it is a code, the same counts for "book"; and "machinery" if we're talking about the enzymes in the cell carrying out all this proofreading, error-correction, packaging, replication, transcription and translation of the DNA):

Here's the full article:

Your Cells—Living Libraries! (Awake!—2015)

IN 1953, molecular biologists James Watson and Francis Crick published a discovery that was critical to our scientific understanding of life. They had discovered the double-helical structure of DNA.a This threadlike substance​—mostly found in the nucleus of cells—​contains encoded, or “written,” information, making cells living libraries, as it were. This amazing discovery opened up a new era in biology! But what purpose is served by the “writing” in cells? More intriguing, how did it get there?

WHY CELLS NEED INFORMATION

...

... In 1957, Crick proposed that it is the linear sequence of the chemical rungs that forms coded instructions. In the 1960’s, that code began to be understood.

Information, whether in the form of pictures, sounds, or words, can be stored and processed in many ways. Computers, for example, do this all digitally. Living cells store and process information chemically, DNA being the key compound. DNA is passed on when cells divide and organisms reproduce​—abilities that are considered defining characteristics of life.

How do cells use information? Think of DNA as a collection of recipes, each one involving step-by-step processes, with each step carefully scripted in precise terms. But instead of the end result being a cake or a cookie, it might be a cabbage or a cow. In living cells, of course, the processes are fully automated, adding yet another layer of complexity and sophistication.

Genetic information is stored until it is needed, perhaps to replace worn out or diseased cells with healthy new ones or to pass on traits to offspring. How much information does DNA hold? Consider one of the smallest organisms, bacteria. German scientist Bernd-Olaf Küppers stated: “Carried over to the realm of human language, the molecular text describing the construction of a bacterial cell would be about the size of a thousand-page book.” For good reason, chemistry professor David Deamer wrote: “One is struck by the complexity of even the simplest form of life.” How does the genome of a human compare? “[It] would fill a library of several thousand volumes,” says Küppers.

...

“WRITTEN IN A WAY THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND”

To describe the writing in DNA as “molecular-genetic language” is more than “mere metaphor,” says Küppers. “Like human language,” he points out, “the molecular-genetic language also possesses a syntactic dimension.” Put simply, DNA has a “grammar,” or set of rules, that strictly regulates how its instructions are composed and carried out.

The “words” and “sentences” in DNA make up the various “recipes” that direct the production of proteins and other substances that form the building blocks of the various cells that make up the body. For example, the “recipe” might guide the production of bone cells, muscle cells, nerve cells, or skin cells. “The filament of DNA is information, a message written in a code of chemicals, one chemical for each letter,” wrote evolutionist Matt Ridley. “It is almost too good to be true, but the code turns out to be written in a way that we can understand.”

The Bible writer David said in prayer to God: “Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; all its parts were written in your book.” (Psalm 139:16) Of course, David was using poetic language. Nevertheless, in principle, he was right on the mark, which is typical of the Bible writers. None were even slightly influenced by the fanciful folklore or mythology of other ancient peoples.​—2 Samuel 23:1, 2; 2 Timothy 3:16.

HOW DID THE WRITING GET THERE?

As is often the case, when scientists explain one mystery, they open a door to another. That was true regarding the discovery of DNA. When it was understood that DNA contains coded information, thoughtful people asked, ‘How did the information get there?’ Of course, no human observed the formation of the first DNA molecule. So we have to draw our own conclusions. Even so, these conclusions need not be speculative. Consider the following comparisons.

- In 1999, fragments of very ancient pottery with unusual markings, or symbols, were found in Pakistan. The marks still remain undeciphered. Nevertheless, they are considered man-made.

- A few years after Watson and Crick discovered the structure of DNA, two physicists proposed searching for coded radio signals from space. Thus began the modern-day search for extraterrestrial intelligence.

The point? People attribute information to intelligence, whether that information is in the form of symbols on clay or signals from space. They do not need to see the information being created to draw that conclusion. Yet, when the most sophisticated code known to man​—the chemical code of life—​was discovered, many shoved that logic aside, attributing DNA to mindless processes. Is that reasonable? Is it consistent? Is it scientific? A number of respected scientists say no. These include Dr. Gene Hwang and Professor Yan-Der Hsuuw.* Consider what they say.

Dr. Gene Hwang studies the mathematical basis of genetics. At one time he believed in evolution, but his research changed his view. “The study of genetics,” he told Awake! “provides insight into the mechanisms of life​—an insight that fills me with awe for the Creator’s wisdom.”

Professor Yan-Der Hsuuw is the director of embryo research at Taiwan’s National Pingtung University of Science and Technology. He too once believed in evolution​—until his research led him to conclude otherwise. Regarding cell division and specialization, he said: “The right cells must be produced in the right order and at the right places. First they assemble into tissues that will in turn assemble themselves into organs and limbs. What engineer can even dream of writing instructions for such a process? Yet the instructions for embryo development are superbly written in DNA. When I consider the beauty of it all, I’m convinced that life was designed by God.”

DOES IT MATTER?

Justice says yes! If God created life, then God deserves the credit, not evolution. (Revelation 4:11) Also, if we are the work of an all-wise Creator, then we are here for a reason. That would not be so if life were a result of undirected processes.*

Indeed, thinking people long for satisfying answers. “Man’s search for meaning is the primary motivation in his life,” said Viktor Frankl, who was a professor of neurology and psychiatry. To put it another way, we have a spiritual hunger that we yearn to satisfy​—a hunger that makes sense only in the light of special creation. But if we are the handiwork of God, did he give us the means to satisfy our spiritual need?

Jesus Christ answered that question, saying: “Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s [or, God’s] mouth.” (Matthew 4:4) Jehovah’s words, which are recorded in the Bible, have satisfied the spiritual hunger of millions, giving meaning to their lives and providing them with a hope for the future. (1 Thessalonians 2:13) May the Bible do the same for you. At the very least, this unique book merits your consideration.

Is Evolution a Scientific Theory?

What qualifies a theory as a scientific theory? According to the Encyclopedia of Scientific Principles, Laws, and Theories, a scientific theory, such as Albert Einstein’s theory of gravity, must

1. Be observable

2. Be reproducible by controlled experiments

3. Make accurate predictions

In that light, where does evolution stand?* Its operation cannot be observed. It cannot be reproduced. And it cannot make accurate predictions. Can evolution even be considered a scientific hypothesis? The same encyclopedia defines a hypothesis as “a more tentative observation of facts [than a theory],” yet lends itself “to deductions that can be experimentally tested.” [*: By “evolution,” we mean “macroevolution”​—apes turning into humans, for example. “Microevolution” refers to small changes within a species, perhaps through selective breeding.]

a reply to: datguy

That's what the primeval code is implying.

I'm thinking DNA might be akin to the hardware while our electromagnetic surrounding might be the software. Or vice versa

Yes, lets say we are created. I don't believe in an invisible being that makes everything, hears and sees all our thoughts though. However I can fully support that a more advanced species meddled with us, maybe even sowed the seed of more evolved life on Earth.
After all, humans are doing this right now and we are no invisible gods.

Our DNA is amazing and weird, but religion has nothing to do with it.

Look, the religious god is a childlike explanation for everything people back in the day didn't understand.
We have grown up quite a bit since then, but there are still things to discover.

You don't have to believe in an incredibly contradictive ghost to explain what you don't understand. In the end everything is Natural, evolution works beautifully and can be observed.
What some call amazing design is amazing because evolution works even on the scale of DNA.

It's the same formula. If it works it is kept because it propagates, if it is a dud, it doesn't propagate and stops.
Therefore always the most suitable option goes on, from cells sticking together to form better blobs in order to be safe, to blobs which suddenly had a better advantage which then grows and grows into large, seemingly complicated blobs.

As to genetic material, yes it's a code, a code that also developed once on the same principles.
The universe had plenty of time.

That said:

I will also say that if there is a creation going on in any way shape or form, I still don't believe in the made up religious god.
It would be beings who are scientist or a form of scientists and life is an experiment. Not just humans, life in general.

This doesn't exclude evolution, which they may be testing.
It can explain the total destruction of labrats when it doesn't go the expected way.

All is possible, apart from a bearded geezer making DNA and people one by one out of clay and is super keen on punishing his creations in a very human, angry way.
We need to grow up from using a clearly human brain invented god as an explanation.

a reply to: Hecate666

Gods and religions are a creation of the very limited human brain expressed by a very limited language, basically our words are doing a poor job of describing anything or transferring thoughts in any form.

With that said, i dont think its impossible that the universe has "intent".

a reply to: neoholographic

The "code" is a man made language to sift through and identify and label what we see and to make sense of genetics, DNA etc...

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: datguy

Try to catch up on a little factual biology (rather than so-called "evolutionary biology"), it'll help in these type of discussions:

Wow, you got really butt hurt and then assumed I had no idea what I talking about. As if there was more evidence of god than evolution, oh wait...

Anywhoo...here some interesting information on cymatics that maybe you could understand before assaulting, based on the use of certain terminology.

Cymatic Wiki
Cymatic evolution
Biological research


If you were to search there is even a number of scholarly articles written on the subject in regards to biology, psychology and human conscience.

This concept doesn't preclude anything in the OP so I'm not sure why you took such a defensive stance. Yes DNA can repair itself but it was my understanding from the OP's terminology that these "error correcting codes" were preventing changes which some would call evolution.
As pointed out in your post the "theory" of evolution has not been proven, but only based on observable changes and accurate predictions. Given the human sciences and understanding of DNA/genetics is barely decades old, is it perhaps safe to suggest we simply don't have the understanding or technology to make such observations over the course of time that these changes take place?

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: datguy

That's what the primeval code is implying.

I'm thinking DNA might be akin to the hardware while our electromagnetic surrounding might be the software. Or vice versa

Like a form of ancient nano-technology.
This would be akin to implying that every life form on the planet was pre-programmed, which would in turn imply that every event (volcanoes, meteor impacts, oil spills, climate change, changes in O2 levels, ect.) were all predestined.

so the Earth is the record and all the life forms (different DNA structures) are the needles playing the music of some great cosmic orchestra.

a reply to: datguy

That's not the way error correcting codes work. For instance, you couldn't have search engines or browsers without error correcting codes because the codes would be overrun with errors every 5 minutes.

Say the Code in DNA is copied a million times, without error correcting codes, you may get a 70-80% error rate. Nothing would be able to evolve because DNA would be overrun with errors.

You add error correcting codes and your error rate is reduced to 5%.

Now you have 950,000 healthy code and 50,000 codes with errors. The errors spread throughout the population and the healthy code can grow and spread through reproduction.

Error correction is important when copying code over and over again to reduce errors. There's no evolution without error correcting codes. There's no computers either. Scienntist even think spacetime is a quantum error correcting code.

How Space and Time Could Be a Quantum Error-Correcting Code
The same codes needed to thwart errors in quantum computers may also give the fabric of space-time its intrinsic robustness.
www.quantamagazine.org...

Here's a lecture by John Preskill.



This would also lead to the same questions like there needs to be an encoder of information on logical qubits if spacetime is a quantum error correcting code.

a reply to: neoholographic

It was not my intent to deny the concept of error correction being coded into DNA., but to also suggest that there are other forces at play.
To be clearer, I find it hard to believe that "evolution" is predestined or pre programed as suggested.
As I stated in a later reply, this would suggest that every change on the planet (being the micro example) would have to be pre planned. While I have always been a proponent for intelligent design I also find hard to suggest that such a design was pre programmed with some type of "if this, then that" predictive programming. To me it has always been more reactionary to the environment, adapting to survive.

So the question I would ask is, How does this "intelligent design" know which changes to "error correct" and which changes to allow in order to promote survival?

a reply to: datguy




Sorry I was thinking you were familiar with this ATS beauty... ATS thread the primeval code...

Cymatics are great visualization as to how patterns form when frequency acts, sound is kind of between the world's.
it's a frequency, but it's matter.

It's great as a mental bridge, because it can be visualized.

However I'm suspecting the electromagnetic spectre to be where the magic happens...

So the question I would ask is, How does this "intelligent design" know which changes to "error correct" and which changes to allow in order to promote survival?

Harmonic frequencies and resonance?

Hey Neo, this thread is fantastic as are members contributions to it. Very intelligent, very deep. Quite a lot to process and definitely not for the shallow minded. I'd like to say thanks though for the quality in material and content. This is A+, top notch material. I read it last night, back at it today along with other relative reading materials. This is a serious study that will take me quite some time to process and absorb.

a reply to: neoholographic

lol. encoded information is totally natural. In nature nothing ever stays the same that's why evolution is the word we use to describe adaptation to new circumstances. Another ckassic from neoholographic. I really don't know why not all your threads get immediately re-placed in the jokes sub-forum.

a reply to: SigmaXSquared

lol You "loathe to jump to conclusions"? But you do anyways, because you identify as cattle?
alright, cool I am all for tolerance when it comes to lifestyle choices, but maybe don't try to sell it as fact for everybody.

originally posted by: neoholographic

This would also lead to the same questions like there needs to be an encoder of information on logical qubits if spacetime is a quantum error correcting code.

So was RNA god's test run?

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: SigmaXSquared

lol You "loathe to jump to conclusions"? But you do anyways, because you identify as cattle?
alright, cool I am all for tolerance when it comes to lifestyle choices, but maybe don't try to sell it as fact for everybody.

I call a spade for what it is, all the technical stuff being beside the point

Op says evolution is a manufacture process and we are the product but who is buying and why

Or do you really think this is all just for funzies because the miracle of life is it's own reward lol nah