Titanic tourist submersible goes missing with search under way

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

One of the people that tried to warn about the carbon fiber not being safe during building was told there was no NDI procedure to check the carbon fiber, and was eventually fired for raising safety concerns. It seems like the company was full of people like the CEO, who just went along with what he wanted.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yeah, I saw that. Probably read the same article.

I'm not sure, but I don't think P.H. Nargeolet ("Mr. Titanic", the French deep sea explorer) worked for OceanGate Expeditions, did he? He's an ex French Navy guy who has been down on the Titanic about 6-8 times in person before this expedition (on other deep sea submersibles), and about 22 other times with ROV's. Pretty experienced guy in deep sea exploration. Seems like he might have had an opinion before hopping aboard.

Just a thought. But yeah, I agree, sounds like the company culture was pretty lackadaisical / unprofessional when it came to safety protocols (or even sound operational protocols).

ETA - In fact, I read one article which was saying...'he's the guy you'd want to have aboard a vessel like this in an emergency'...almost as if that was the main reason he was going. The article was written while there was still wild speculation about them still being alive, before the debris was found, but just thought I'd note that factoid.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

He was even trapped underwater for three days once. I think he may have been sold a bill of goods, and bought into what the CEO was selling.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Could well be!

Rush must have been a helluva con-man.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

It sounds like he was. More than a few people were planning to go, and decided at the last second not to.

a reply to: Zaphod58
I've recently seen numerous sub experts come out of the woodwork to say they told Stockton Rush to not use carbon fiber, or a mix of carbon fiber and titanium which he used. And we've seen video of Stockton Rush saying that lots of people told him not to do that but he did it anyway because he's an innovator and he was sure the engineering was sound. I'm not against innovation but having the sub certified would have been a good way to show if the engineering was really sound as he claimed.

Bob Ballard said he's been in 9 different deep submersibles and he's never worried about the intergity of the subs he's been in. James Cameron says there was no reason to roll the dice on carbon fiber. He said there are other things he was worried about like entanglement, where you may need a secondary ROV to help free the entangled sub, if say it gets stuck on part of the titanic wreckage, and Stockton Rush apparently had no plan for that scenario, and no emergency beacon. Some people said they actually wanted to stop Rush, but they were powerless to do anything to stop him in international waters.

'There is no excuse for what happened here': Director James Cameron on Titanic sub tragedy

Sounds like the next step might be to look into Miawpukek First Nation (services), the owner of Polar Prince, a indigineous American cadet training company.

Initial glance looks like the company was formed with a grant in April 2023, as a partnership with Horizon Maritime (services) which was founded 2015.

The Polar Prince is not a new vessel! In fact, it was actually commissioned in 1959 and served in the Canadian Coast Guard until 2001 as both an icebreaker and buoy tender. It was retired from service and decommissioned in 2001.

The vessel changed ownership (3) times before being by Miawpukek Horizon Maritime Service(s) in 2021. The paid charter history between 2021 and 2023 is unclear, but is listed as "SOI Foundation" for ... 'expedition use for education, research and ocean conservation...which sounds to me like...'we'll do anything you pay us to do, but please do charter our boat, and...we love you long time!"

Side note - The more I dig into this, the sleazier it gets! (sorry). Actually, I'm going to have to stop looking into this for a bit, because I'm starting to get (sad, frustrated, I dunno) here. This is sounding like a complete toilet flush on multiple levels.

Nvm

A video from a 2022 dive has resurfaced, showing the sub at the bottom, and the pilot suddenly says, "Am I spinning?" and someone replying 'Yes". They had one thruster stuck in forward, and another in reverse, so they were only capable of turning a 360.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
Sounds like the next step might be to look into Miawpukek First Nation (services), the owner of Polar Prince, a indigineous American cadet training company.

Initial glance looks like the company was formed with a grant in April 2023, as a partnership with Horizon Maritime (services) which was founded 2015.

The Polar Prince is not a new vessel! In fact, it was actually commissioned in 1959 and served in the Canadian Coast Guard until 2001 as both an icebreaker and buoy tender. It was retired from service and decommissioned in 2001.

The vessel changed ownership (3) times before being by Miawpukek Horizon Maritime Service(s) in 2021. The paid charter history between 2021 and 2023 is unclear, but is listed as "SOI Foundation" for ... 'expedition use for education, research and ocean conservation...which sounds to me like...'we'll do anything you pay us to do, but please do charter our boat, and...we love you long time!"

Side note - The more I dig into this, the sleazier it gets! (sorry). Actually, I'm going to have to stop looking into this for a bit, because I'm starting to get (sad, frustrated, I dunno) here. This is sounding like a complete toilet flush on multiple levels.

I think this is exactly how they are going to address these expeditions that occur in no mans land, they will hold the support vessel, and the port/country they leave from, to some form of account going forward.

Good to see you!

a reply to: vonclod

Might be interesting to see what happens to the Polar Prince after all this. I wouldn't be surprised to see her change hands, or get sold for scrap (again) in the not too distant future. Getting maritime and liability insurance for vessels and expeditions like this is hard enough as it is. Throw a few fatalities and a high-profile incident like this into the mix and, regardless of the purpose of future voyages, the insurance premiums are going to be prohibitively high (if even attainable at all). This, simply because a major incident like this took place on a vessel under the Owner's watch. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Miawpukek Horizon Maritime Services vanish altogether as a result of this. Though, they may have some protection via the Canadian government as a result of their native american status. Sounds like the 'company' was formed, in part, from Canadian incentives for minority communities. Horizon Maritime, their JV partner and quasi-sponsor, probably won't be so lucky.

Snopes judges the transcript of the Titan as "unproven"

But what can be confirmed from sources is that the carbon fiber hull had an acoustic monitoring system, that, as far as I could tell, was only good for telling you that the carbon fiber hull was failing and that you only had a very short time to live before implosion occurred.

So I don't know if the transcript is real, but it shows Rush got a warning from the monitoring system. Even if the transcript is fake, Stockton Rush probably did get a warning from the acoustic monitoring system before the hull collapsed. Whether it was 15 minutes like the transcript is unknown at this point, some experts said the acoustic monitoring warning could have occurred only seconds before the implosion but they do seem to think there would have been some warning.

So the story we heard that the hull imploded without giving them any warning at all is likely not true. It will be interesting to see if the transcript is ever oficially confirmed or denied.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: stonerwilliam

I'm sure you could hold down a weather balloon with all the waivers and hold-harmless forms the occupants of an 'adventure' like this have to sign in order to be accepted. So, I don't think we're going to see a whole lot of book throwing as a result of this incident. Sure, something might come out of 'willful negligence' if that is found to be the case, but short of this I doubt it.

There is some commentary on how well the waivers will hold up from this LegalBytes youtuber. Part of the waiver from a previous trip was read on camera, which says it's risky and the sub isn't certified and you can die as a result of the risk.



To summarize why she thinks that waiver may not stand up to legal challenges; we are learning so much about the inherent risks that she thinks it's unlikely that everything that was known about the risks was adequately disclosed in the waiver to allow the people signing the waiver to make an informed decision. So she thinks OceansGate is toast. That may not be a bad thing.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Well, that's a pretty common posture for litigation attorneys and plaintiffs to take, as is the converse from defense counsel and defendants.

No real surprise there.

The Polar Prince was rented for this year as the mothership, but was too small to put Titan on the deck, so they had to tow it behind the ship to the dive site.

www.insider.com...

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
Snopes judges the transcript of the Titan as "unproven"

I posted that on July 7. After that, on July 12, Snopes changed their assessment to "False", you can ready why at their link:

Was the Titan Sub's Text Message 'Transcript' or 'Log' Released?
Snopes said they reached out to OceanGate Expeditions to ask about this rumor, and they didn't get any response.

But fake transcript aside, the Snopes article suggests the implosion didn't occur during a normal descent, and refers to comments by insider James Cameron that they were ascending and managing an emergency:

"This OceanGate sub had sensors on the inside of the hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack," Cameron said to ABC News on June 22. "And I think if that's your idea of safety, then you're doing it wrong. You don't... and they probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate and it was starting to crack. Because, as Bob [Ballard] pointed out, we understand from inside the community, that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency."

...

July 12, 2023: This report's rating was updated from "Unproven" to "False" following our receipt of new insight from CBS News correspondent David Pogue.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

That's what trial lawyers always say! It's like a broken record.

Don't forget, they're in it for the money, not the justice, so nothing ventured nothing gained. It's not criminal court, it's civil court, so they don't need "beyond any reasonable doubt", they only need "preponderance of evidence" with a simple majority.

I'm not sticking up for this outfit; they were totally shaky and deserve what they get. I'm just talking about the laws and the justice system.