What's the origin of the physical universe?

a reply to: cooperton

You close your mind to objective analysis just because someone mentions a book? This sort of close-minded bigotry (oh the irony) is the most anti-thetical precedent for true philosophical inquiry.

Quite the contrary , I read every word of this post and allow it into my mind but I also have a stack of books just upstairs in my spare room ' Or I guess you could call it a study ' books purposefully left out of the beloved Bible , and stacks of other books ranging from Nietzsche to Rudolf Steiner and everywhere in between.

Early Christian philosophers, and Christ Himself, having a corroborating analysis of reality with quantum physicists almost 2,000 years later speaks for itself.

Indeed and remind me what was it that placed Christ on the Cross ?

Oh yeah it's all coming back now , It was Christ teachings that ran quite contrary to the Torah and the Jewish faith , It was Christ absolute dis-taste for organized religion and mans control of it .

Whats the saying Render unto Caesars what is Caesars and Give to God what is Gods. The secrets of the Universe are not hidden in the Bible or any one Religion , It is there in our minds waiting .

Oh no... I mentioned "Christ"... you must have reflexively shut off your monitor and dumped battery acid on your keyboard by now.

I grew up in the light of Christ and even still I found my own Path .

a reply to: neoholographic

What's the origin of the physical universe?

That's a question. I dont like apologetic arguments. For any side.

The best one for me is a "Vacuum exception value" occurred in an eternal vacuum field that caused inflation.

But that's pretty much as far as it can go. There are theorem for vacuum genesis but nothing concrete, or not also explained by swapping quarks out with strings.

There's always another layer to add. Someone could say it took a god to decide there be a vacuum exception value. And so on. It's a chicken/egg paradox.

Always the same line: If god created the universe what created god, and if god can always have existed why can't the universe with one less god."

Then they say the universe is a manifestation of god. And insert it right back in. Math and constants as God's manifestation, very postmodern.

So i am going with this copout: They both always existed superpositionally. They both are valid explanations for the ultimate priori.

I can't explain why the physical laws and critical temperatures are what they are unless I infer a multiverse. And now it's getting compacted in higher dimensions of things to consider.

Maybe one day well figure more out... As it stands we haven't even figured out gravity beyond "We think it's a spin 2 tensor boson but it has not yet been directly observed. Can CERN have more money?"

This is rhetorical equivalent of mirrors reflecting mirrors, or unstoppable forces and immovable objects. It's a futile debate for all positions.

Even if one is better.

originally posted by: neoholographic
...

The Bible tells us that the Word Created the visible(physical) and invisible(non-physical). It tells us the visible comes from the invisible:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

That's not actually what it's talking about with the expression "the invisible things of him", it's not talking about everything that is invisible (or "the invisible" in general). Perhaps another translation will help make it more clear what Paul was actually talking about there, from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures—With References:

For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s* creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,* so that they are inexcusable;

I'll spare you the footnotes cause they are a little besides the point. So it's talking specifically about God's invisible things or qualities. The truth is that we are surrounded by evidence of a Creator who is wise, powerful, and loving. All qualities that are invisible to the naked eye, but can be perceived another way. Because the Creator left his imprint on his handiwork, as Paul pointed out. Let us take a closer look at Paul’s words.

God’s qualities could be seen “from the world’s creation onward,” notes Paul. In this context the Greek word rendered “world” does not refer to the planet Earth. Rather, it refers to humankind.* Hence, Paul is saying that from the moment humans were created, they could see evidence of the Creator’s qualities in the things he made. (*: The Bible also speaks of “the world” as being guilty of sin and needing a savior, clearly showing that in such contexts the term applies to humankind and not the earth.​—John 1:29; 4:42; 12:47.)

That evidence is all around us. It is not hidden in nature but is “clearly seen.” From the largest to the smallest, creation clearly reveals not only that there is a Creator but also that he has wonderful qualities. Does not the intelligent design so obvious in nature reveal to us God’s wisdom? Do not the starry heavens and the pounding surf reveal his power? Does not the variety of foods that delight our palate and the beauty of sunrises and sunsets reveal his love for mankind?​—Psalm 104:24; Isaiah 40:26.

How plain is the evidence? It is so clear that those who do not see it and who thus refuse to believe in God “are inexcusable.” One scholar illustrates it this way: Imagine a driver who ignores a sign that says “Detour​—Turn Left.” A police officer stops him and starts writing him a ticket. The driver tries to argue that he did not see the sign. But his words carry little weight because the sign is in plain view and there is nothing wrong with the driver’s vision. Besides, as a driver, the responsibility for seeing and heeding such signs is his. So it is with the evidence of God in nature. That “sign” is in plain view. As reasoning creatures, we are capable of seeing it. There is no excuse for ignoring it.

Indeed, the book of creation reveals much about our Creator. But there is another book that reveals far more about him​—the Bible. Through its pages we can learn the answer to this vital question: What is God’s purpose for our earth and the humans who inhabit it? Learning the answer to that question can help you to draw closer to the God whose “invisible qualities are clearly seen” in the world around us.

What Is God’s Purpose for the Earth? (What Does the Bible Really Teach?)

...

... He says that he “did not create [the earth] simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited.” (Isaiah 45:18) What kind of people did God want to live on the earth? And for how long did he want them to live here? The Bible answers: “The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it.”​—Psalm 37:29; Revelation 21:3, 4.

a reply to: neoholographic

Starred and flagged!

Good post and informative. I didn’t know that about quantum fields and subatomic states as you called them.

After reading this post and your other posts on this subject, it’s clear something is holding together this universe.

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow

Indeed and remind me what was it that placed Christ on the Cross ?

Oh yeah it's all coming back now , It was Christ teachings that ran quite contrary to the Torah and the Jewish faith , It was Christ absolute dis-taste for organized religion and mans control of it .

Whats the saying Render unto Caesars what is Caesars and Give to God what is Gods. The secrets of the Universe are not hidden in the Bible or any one Religion , It is there in our minds waiting

Jesus's teachings fulfilled the Torah, some at the time didn't realize it. And yeah organized religion is always going to corrupt the teachings they are trying to espouse.. but that doesn't disprove the teachings themselves. Many interpretations by scientists are absolutely bunk, but I don't throw out science altogether because of it.

I do agree it is more so within us than it is In a book, but the Book is useful to validate what is emerging within us. Especially since what is emerging within is unbelievably amazing in a world that is against its emergence...

I grew up in the light of Christ and even still I found my own Path .

All I'm saying is don't throw the baby Jesus out with the bath water. He showed that He is objectively the keystone of reality

a reply to: cooperton

I don't think the KJV is the holy word. It's a translation, manipulated by clerics/politicians to fit their confirmation bias.

All the counsels that determined Biblical content were political entities with an agenda and I don't think the agenda or translation was divinely inspired.

The council of Nicaea..."when in doubt, throw it out" They infact threw out the baby with the bath water imo.

a reply to: cooperton

Jesus's teachings fulfilled the Torah, some at the time didn't realize it. And yeah organized religion is always going to corrupt the teachings they are trying to espouse.. but that doesn't disprove the teachings themselves

Didn't realize it ? They nailed his ass to a cross because they knew full well what he was Preaching and it threatened there power structure.

To this very Day the traditional Jews all over the world deny the teachings of Christ and act as if the New Testament doesn't exist. I imagine to them Christianity is a giant 3,000 year old running Joke.

All I'm saying is don't throw the baby Jesus out with the bath water. He showed that He is objectively the keystone of reality

There are around 1 Billion Muslims who would disagree with you , and Another 1 Billion Hindus who would disagree with you and several Hundred million Buddhist who disagree with all religions .

All of those people are born under the roof of one Religion or another believing their God is the one True God most of them willing to go to the Grave for their God.

How can we say that our Truth is better than theirs.

a reply to: neoholographic

Aristotle said it succinctly; nature abhors a vacuum. We're so hung up on time because ours is so limited so infinity is as hard to grasp. Our perception is so whack we can't even see the universe as it exists. Only by the deceptive reflections of light. We'll never have an answer to that question IMO because it's probably the wrong one to ask. Also, physical depends on scale. What we think is solid isn't for something not to our scale.

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow
a reply to: cooperton

Didn't realize it ? They nailed his ass to a cross because they knew full well what he was Preaching and it threatened there power structure.

At least the High Priest of the Jews knew very well what he was doing:

"You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” John 11:50

Here the High Priest says exactly Jesus's mission, to be the sacrificial lamb for the entire nation of Israel (and also the gentiles).

There are around 1 Billion Muslims who would disagree with you

No, Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah (Al-Masih)

How can we say that our Truth is better than theirs.

Many religions are pointing towards the Truth... But Jesus was the uninhibited manifestation of the Most High God who welcomes all into His Kingdom. I couldn't think of a better Apex Creator of the universe.

originally posted by: olaru12

The council of Nicaea..."when in doubt, throw it out" They infact threw out the baby with the bath water imo.

It is a shame that they banned a lot of worthwhile records of Christ... but honestly most Christians don't even read the orthodox Gospels so there's no reason to give 'em more homework haha.

a reply to: cooperton

No, Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah (Al-Masih)

I'll wait patiently while you point out the passage in the Koran that claims this ...

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow


I'll wait patiently while you point out the passage in the Koran that claims Jesus is the Messiah ...

When the angels said: “O Mary! Allah gives you the good news of a Word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, who is illustrious in this world and the hereafter, and who is one of those brought near [to Allah]. (Quran 3.45)

Jesus is referred to as "messiah" 11 times in the Quran. He is acknowledged as a prophet. All prophets are referred to as messiah in one way or another. But it is NEVER asserted that Jesus was a god, or a son of a god or anything of the sort. Similar to Muhammed, Jesus was a prophet according to the Islamic beliefs of the time. Muhammed is never referred to as a god and only as a prophet or "messenger of God".

Every prophet of God is an anointed one of God, a Messiah, but the title Al-Maseeh or Messiah, or its translation "Christ" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific titles which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasulullah", meaning "Messenger of God", which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasullullah" has become synonymous only with Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, among Muslims (if you have studied Islam, that is). Every prophet is indeed a "Friend of God", but its Arabic equivalent "Khaleellullah" is exclusively associated with Prophet Abraham (pbuh). This does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kaleemullah", meaning "One who spoke with Allah" is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with many of His messengers, including Jesus and Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon all His prophets. Associating certain titles with certain personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.

a reply to: Phantom423

The religion of Muhammad blasphemed in its Deniel of Jesus as the son of God and less so but also in denying him as God (the idea that God cannot take human form is an idea that he is NOT almighty but he is so he can and of course he can be three and one at the same time as well), now Jesus (Yeshua) would probably forgive and probably has that BUT it goes further, denying his crucifixion (And therefore his forgiveness from the cross) and therefore his blood though he will forgive them what they do not know and knows that they have been born into that (Though those that created it and led so many astray I am not so sure of - but I am certainly NOT their judge and he IS and mine).




The ARK of the COVENANT is currently in the Grotto of Jeremiah in a Palestinian are of Jerusalem, the Israeli's sent in six Rabbi's to try to take it to a Jewish area but they all dropped dead, the sealed it back up but it is there.

It is EXACTLY below Christ died on the cross and when the earth trembles, the temple veil was rent and the ROCK OF GOLGOTHA was split his blood flowed down that split and onto the mercy seat of the Ark of the covenant, look at every depiction of the ark, none of them are correct and then look at the depiction of the one Ron found, it is exactly correct.

God loves the Muslims every bit as much as any of the rest of his children, but Islam is NOT correct, and Muhammad was NOT a prophet of the Lord.

It's very nearly time.

What the devil has stolen God, Jesus will take back and that includes his children.

originally posted by: Phantom423
All prophets are referred to as messiah in one way or another.

No they aren't, its a specific title that is given only to Jesus in Christian and Muslim faiths

a reply to: cooperton


So what? It's only a title. The Quran and Islam NEVER proclaim Jesus as a god, a son of god or anything close to a god.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: cooperton


So what? It's only a title. The Quran and Islam NEVER proclaim Jesus as a god, a son of god or anything close to a god.

In fact Jesus never proclaimed himself as God nor " The Son of God " .

Jesus said he was " A Son of God " not " The Son of God " and there was a group of esoteric Jews in these times who called themselves " The Sons of God " and it has been theorized that Jesus was apart of this group.

But the Truth is the Bible has been manipulated and twisted into so many different versions that the True message was lost long ago. If it ever was there in the first place , Jesus's divinity was gifted to him via the original Roman Catholic Church and that is the cold truth of it .

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Phantom423
All prophets are referred to as messiah in one way or another.

No they aren't, its a specific title that is given only to Jesus in Christian and Muslim faiths

Jeez why didn't someone tell the Muslims and Christian Crusaders this back in the 1200's it would have stopped a lot of blood shed.

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: cooperton


So what? It's only a title. The Quran and Islam NEVER proclaim Jesus as a god, a son of god or anything close to a god.

In fact Jesus never proclaimed himself as God nor " The Son of God " .

Jesus said he was " A Son of God " not " The Son of God " and there was a group of esoteric Jews in these times who called themselves " The Sons of God " and it has been theorized that Jesus was apart of this group.

But the Truth is the Bible has been manipulated and twisted into so many different versions that the True message was lost long ago. If it ever was there in the first place , Jesus's divinity was gifted to him via the original Roman Catholic Church and that is the cold truth of it .

All the Abrahamic religions do exactly the same thing. They take the ancient manuscripts and rewrite them to make them fit a particular agenda. In Judaism and Islam the writers are called "commentators". Commentators are the guys who interpret the Torah and the Quran. As a result, the Jews have multiple sects - Hasidism, orthodox, ultra orthodox, conservative and so on. Islam has two main sects: Shiite and Suni who are forever fighting and killing each other.

But the Christians take the cake. Since the beginning of Christianity there have been dozens of sects with a multiplicity of beliefs based on their own personal interpretation of the New Testament. Today there's well over a hundred denominations who call themselves Christian. And each one has their own interpretation of their Bible. Sound like politics? Well that's exactly what religion is: politics. "It's my way or the highway" psychology. Historically, Christians are clearly the most violent, forcing whole countries to accept their will.

Partial list of Christian denominations:

2 Early Christian
3 Late ancient and Medieval Christian
3.1 Church of the East
3.1.1 Assyrian Christianity
3.2 Oriental Orthodox Churches
4 Eastern Orthodox
5 Catholic
5.1 Latin Church (Western Church)
5.2 Eastern Catholic Churches
5.2.1 Alexandrian Rite
5.2.2 Armenian Rite
5.2.3 Byzantine Rite
5.2.4 East Syriac Rite
5.2.5 West Syriac Rite
6 Protestant
6.1 Proto-Protestant
6.2 Lutheran
6.2.1 Pietism
6.3 Reformed
6.3.1 Continental Reformed churches
6.3.2 Presbyterianism
6.3.3 Congregationalism
6.4 Anglican
6.4.1 Anglican Communion
6.4.1.1 United and uniting churches who hold membership in the Anglican Communion
6.4.2 Other Anglican churches and Continuing Anglican movement
6.5 Anabaptist
6.5.1 Schwarzenau Brethren Movement
6.6 Baptist
6.6.1 Bapticostals
6.6.2 Holiness Baptists
6.6.3 Sabbath-keeping Baptists
6.6.4 Spiritual Baptists
6.7 Methodist
6.7.1 Holiness movement
6.8 Campbellite and Millerite
6.8.1 Stone-Campbell Restoration movement
6.8.2 Millerism and comparable groups
6.8.3 Adventist movement (Sunday observing)
6.8.4 Adventist movement (Seventh Day Sabbath/Saturday observing)
6.9 Quaker
6.9.1 Shakers
6.10 Plymouth Brethren
6.11 Irvingist
6.12 Pentecostal and Charismatic
6.12.1 Other Charismatic movements
6.12.2 Neo-charismatic movement
6.13 Uniting and united
6.13.1 Free Evangelical Churches
6.14 Evangelical
6.14.1 African Evangelicalism
6.14.1.1 P'ent'ay
6.14.2 Asian-initiated churches
6.14.2.1 Chinese Independent Churches
6.14.2.2 Japanese Independent Churches
6.14.3 Malaysian Evangelicalism
6.14.4 North American Evangelicalism
6.14.5 South American Evangelicalism
6.14.6 Internet churches
6.15 Eastern Protestant
6.16 Other Protestant churches and movements
6.16.1 Early modern England
7 Independent sacramental
7.1 Independent Catholic
7.2 Independent Eastern Orthodox
7.2.1 True Orthodoxy
7.2.2 Old Believers
7.3 Independent Oriental Orthodox
7.4 Syncretic Orthodoxy
8 Miscellaneous
8.1 Independent Russian
8.2 Southcottist
8.3 Christian Identitist
8.4 Independent/Isolated
8.5 Nontrinitarian
8.5.1 Oneness Pentecostalism
8.5.2 Unitarian and Universalism
8.5.3 Nontrinitarian Restorationism
8.5.3.1 American Israelism and Latter Day Saint movement
8.5.3.1.1 "Prairie Saint" Latter Day Saints
8.5.3.1.2 "Rocky Mountain" Latter Day Saints
8.5.3.1.3 Fundamentalist Rocky Mountain Latter Day Saints
8.5.3.1.4 Other Latter Day Saint denominations
8.5.3.2 British Israelism
8.5.3.2.1 Worldwide Church of God splinter groups
8.5.3.3 Bible Students and splinter groups
8.5.3.4 Other Nontrinitarian restorationists
8.5.4 Swedenborgianism
8.5.5 Christian Science
8.5.6 Esoteric Christianity (Gnosticism)
8.5.7 Other Nontrinitarians
8.6 Judeo-Christian
8.6.1 Messianic Judaism
8.6.2 Black Hebrew Israelites
8.6.3 Other groups
9 Parachurch
10 Ideologies
11 Syncretic
11.1 African diaspora religions
11.2 New Thought
11.3 Other syncretists
12 See also

And as far as Jesus is concerned, Jesus was a nice Jewish boy who came from a conservative Jewish community which probably engaged in mysticism.

He got himself mixed up in the local politics and caused a commotion at a Temple about money changing (does that sound familiar???). As a result, his own people summarily labeled him a criminal and ultimately convinced the Romans to murder him. All the nonsense about rising from the dead and miracles, etc is just that: a lot of nonsense. Living beyond the age of 30 was a miracle in those days.

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow

Jeez why didn't someone tell the Muslims and Christian Crusaders this back in the 1200's it would have stopped a lot of blood shed.

I know I was shocked when I first found it out. Its a shame people will put their similarities aside to justify a war for geopolitical means.

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow

In fact Jesus never proclaimed himself as God nor " The Son of God " .

Jesus said he was " A Son of God " not " The Son of God "

It's often forgotten that Christians are , in Christ's own words, brothers and sisters of Christ. Islam refuses this, and it comes from interesting foreshadowing because the entire lineage of Islam comes from Abraham's servant who conceived Ishmael. Surely enough, thousands of years later, the lineage of Islam still sees themselves as mere servants and not legitimate children of God

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: cooperton

The Quran and Islam NEVER proclaim Jesus as a god, a son of god or anything close to a god.

That's correct. I never claimed otherwise.