Can the US EVER see a 1980s retail boom again or has the ship sunk?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: LSU2018

The mall was a fad concept from the 50's/60's that lived far longer than it should have. People should be shopping in their local downtowns instead of charmless voids like a shopping mall.

Malls are mostly dead

Yea no thank you to downtown retail, the smaller cities, and towns maybe, but some areas never made a successful transition to downtown retail like it is in the northeast and midwest. I could rattle off cities here in the southeast and for every city with decent retail shopping, there are 2-3 that don't. We just never embraced the downtown lifestyle, the mass transit, the living in apartments and breadbox homes.

Downtown Atlanta will never get enough traffic, they have tried even in the boom years, we spent millions trying to revive Underground Atlanta twice. Now you have to find a parking place or take MARTA an adventure in itself and pay more per item because the rent is still astronomical downtown and it's inconvenient and you are likely to get hassled, robbed, or worse. Throw in we have fewer people working downtown even during the day there just aren't as many people with money to shop. We have areas and enclaves that do okay, but we just don't have enough population actually living in those zip codes.

FWIW our suburban high-end malls and shopping centers aren't exactly doing well either, everything is in contraction mode. We are seeing lots of property being bought by developers though, in 2 years it could be transformed

The entire paradigm was built on the expectation is infinite exponential growth of consumption and production. And anybody with a grasp on reality knows that that is an impossible construct.

It all had to come down eventually. I think it has been engineered to do so.

a reply to: putnam6

I'm not referring to downtown as in cities, I mean your local town or municipality. There is nothing I can't get at the mall that I can't get by walking around the surrounding downtowns from where I live and to be honest, they offerings are usually much better and more unique.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: putnam6

I'm not referring to downtown as in cities, I mean your local town or municipality. There is nothing I can't get at the mall that I can't get by walking around the surrounding downtowns from where I live and to be honest, the offerings are usually much better and more unique.

Yes, we were seeing a revival there, well until COVID. But still in our little town 30 miles from Atlanta, the traffic and parking in the town proper are a nightmare, there is no bus or mass transit. They got some nice upper-scale boutiques and specialty stores, restaurants but it isn't really enough variety, and what we did have closed and aren't likely to come back.

FWIW the shopping areas and malls I've used all my life here, I rarely go to at all anymore. Service is shoddy, prices are really high and yea it's metro Atlanta and you really have a good chance of getting robbed, carjacked, mugged and/ or hassled.

Hell, I used to go check out the Office, Computer, or Sporting Goods store just to leisurely shop, but now I just shop out of necessity, and most times I can find what I need on eBay.

Our selection isn't gonna get any better with this kind of stuff looming below or am I just randomly connecting dots? Homes not being affordable means we are definitely in a transition phase?

www.bizjournals.com...

Now homeownership in every metro Atlanta county is unaffordable

a reply to: putnam6

Downtown Atlanta sucks nards, I'm in that area fairly regularly since we have an office over by HD's HQ. We usually end up in Marietta since they kind of have a downtown area.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: SortingHat

Retail chains along with malls have been folding for decades and saw a spike in 2018-19.

I don't know about other malls but down here I was completely shocked at the ruckus they had going on at one time and more shocked they were getting away with it.

Back around early 2000's they approached me numerous times about doing a food court concept at their mall for a restaurant business I owned. Finally I said alright I will hear the sales pitch and send me some paper work for me to review. I was completely shocked there were any restaurants in the food court after seeing that contract. The rent was crazy but that wasn't even the issue.

They also wanted full accessibility to your accounting and financial statements for the business so they could take a percentage on top of the crazy rent on a monthly basis.

At that point I understood why so many of the local smaller local restaurants in the food court would always fail. I can only think that was a contract for the smaller business and created a different one for the bigger national brands . I couldn't imagine McD and chickfila agreeing to those terms.

Needless to say I laughed at their great opportunity. Told the guy at this point I don't own the restaurant I just work for you and get to do all the hard work.

The business that took the spot they were wanting me to take unfortunately did not make it and since then there have been multiple other business in the same spot.

I wonder if they still offer such great deals ,since many of the spots appear to be empty or swapping out new tenants even faster than kamala under a desk.

I think the problem for the malls is not only online competition but there refusal to get off the gravy train and adjust . Kind of like blockbuster.

The US needs to shift away from China. The 80s was the start of the Chinese boom too with many companies going there and using their labor at 2 bucks a day and they saw that as great. Today they are "middle class" so much more expensive and the Chinese are much harder to work with, so it is time to move on. We did it with Japan, then Korea and now China for like 30 years now so nothing new.

If we want a boom back we need to go to that next area where labor is cheep because they are dirt poor and 2 bucks a day is a large amount to them. China's ship has sailed, I would love to see South America as the next move, so much closer to home and then we can walk away from China.

a reply to: SortingHat

The two political parties use each other as patsies any chance they get. Depending on who you ask, the economic crisis du jour is always the other guys fault.

But look at all the admins, you'll see record breaking debt, record spending, and often record quantitative easing.

So when we handed out trillions of dollars to prop up corporations, should they have been allowed to turn around and price gouge us after they took tax payer dollars to keep their doors open? And these are corporations who often get huge tax breaks themselves or don't even pay.

Trumps admin had record spending and debt before COVID even happened. Within months of the outbreak, we saw more capital utilized than the wars in the Middle East and 08 combined.

Biden is worse in a lot of ways, and that's where we find some consistency, the current guy one upping the last guy, typically in negative metrics.

I'll be the first to admit Biden poured gas on a fire. But this country is absolutely doomed if many think Trumps admin could run up debt, spending, and then the biggest "rescue" package ever without fallout.

originally posted by: interupt42
Kind of like blockbuster.

Great example. They could have done streaming but thought it was going to cut into their retail business.

a reply to: Xtrozero

The US needs to shift away from China. The 80s was the start of the Chinese boom too with many companies going there and using their labor at 2 bucks a day and they saw that as great. Today they are "middle class" so much more expensive and the Chinese are much harder to work with, so it is time to move on. We did it with Japan, then Korea and now China for like 30 years now so nothing new.

Back 10 or more years ago I worked for one of the really big corps in the Tech sector. One of my last tasks right before I quit and went elsewhere was to setup and supervise software development efforts in Africa. We would get the requirements in the US design it then send it to African developers to develop. At the time the big corps were using USA tax payers money to setup the infrastructure in Africa . The big corps were prepping Africa for the China replacement at that time. I left not to soon after the task was given to me, not because of the task itself but because other opportunities and life .

The 80s were the times of specialized shops Ned mom and pops. They’re gone for good. I miss having to go to six stores for six different items. The Amazon Walmart era is here for good. The 80s were heaven on earth imho

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: putnam6

Downtown Atlanta sucks nards, I'm in that area fairly regularly since we have an office over by HD's HQ. We usually end up in Marietta since they kind of have a downtown area.

Downtown Atlanta sucks nards I should put that on a t-shirt it would sell well here, LOL

"Mayretta" has had Lockheed since the 40's it's well-funded and well connected, it's was my second home growing up, my grandmother lived there and we were always visiting.

Many Georgia towns would love to replicate the "Square" Marietta has, hell many have tried, with mixed results.

FWIW Atlanta's population is just 532,695 that's like 38th out of all the cities, and a boatload of that population is below the poverty level, like 22%

originally posted by: interupt42
Back 10 or more years ago I worked for one of the really big corps in the Tech sector. One of my last tasks right before I quit and went elsewhere was to setup and supervise software development efforts in Africa. We would get the requirements in the US design it then send it to African developers to develop. At the time the big corps were using USA tax payers money to setup the infrastructure in Africa . The big corps were prepping Africa for the China replacement at that time. I left not to soon after the task was given to me, not because of the task itself but because other opportunities and life .

Today things are much higher tech, so not as easy as it was in the past, but it will happen one way or another as we see with Russia too. It can be painful or just uncomfortable, its up to us, but its coming.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: interupt42
Back 10 or more years ago I worked for one of the really big corps in the Tech sector. One of my last tasks right before I quit and went elsewhere was to setup and supervise software development efforts in Africa. We would get the requirements in the US design it then send it to African developers to develop. At the time the big corps were using USA tax payers money to setup the infrastructure in Africa . The big corps were prepping Africa for the China replacement at that time. I left not to soon after the task was given to me, not because of the task itself but because other opportunities and life .

Today things are much higher tech, so not as easy as it was in the past, but it will happen one way or another as we see with Russia too. It can be painful or just uncomfortable, its up to us, but its coming.

Yeah Russia was a hit to the tech sector as well. I know of a few small business that were scrambling to try to get there Russian developers out of Russia when the sanctions started.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: LSU2018

Sounds like people should be doing more local shopping and not bothering with malls.

Now it's strip malls that everyone goes to. Only kids that look like they're up to no good go to the big malls. The malls were already in trouble, but when the Louisiana Boardwalk came along, complete with a Marriot hotel, much nicer Cinema, and trolley, it really clamped down on the malls even more, then when even more stores moved north of I-220 on Airline Drive (where all the rich folk live), everyone else moved their stores there, along with several more new stores and a SAMS.

a reply to: LSU2018

Strip malls suck too, they're just as charmless as a shopping mall.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: LSU2018

Strip malls suck too, they're just as charmless as a shopping mall.

Yeah but around here, you're not going to find what you're looking for without going to one of them unless you go online, order, and wait. A few weeks ago I went to the only shop around here that modifies exhaust. While I browsed around in their store as my truck was being worked on, I swear I saw some of the same items that were still in there the last time I'd gone to them in 2009. The plastic on a lot of items were even yellowed. The latest tuner was for a 2010 GM and they had chrome door handle covers that would fit my 2002 Dodge Ram. Chrome door handle covers haven't been popular in a decade. Loved the nostalgia, but they could have made a lot more money if they'd had anything cool to fit on a 2021 Ram.

a reply to: LSU2018

Forest Fair Mall in Cincinnati has an amusement park inside with a roller coaster, Ferris wheel and bumper cars….dead now.

The only revitalization that could happen to a mall is to renovate the second floor into townhouse sized apartments meaning the whole former store or two. And make that inaccessible to the public. Use the ground floor stores as stores and make it a city/neighborhood into itself. With food, clothes, hardware, nice restaurants, movie theaters, etc. and have them open to the public and ran by the residents. Make their apartment rent free if they run a store as an incentive.

Now, if your clothing and furniture stores actually made goods on premises behind the safety of a fishbowl for public observation….all the better.

As a city/store, the mall would have a purpose. The only thing left is an Amazon demo/fulfillment center. Where you can look at items and have them brought to you like a giant live action visit to the website or an IKEA…which has to be Swedish for hike in a maze.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: interupt42
Kind of like blockbuster.

Great example. They could have done streaming but thought it was going to cut into their retail business.

Or they could have not done like blockbuster and sat back pretending that online retail wasn't as big as a threat as at it was until it was to late.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

You'd think Trump's secure economy would've brought back the retail scene as usually during a good economy no matter what retail people usually have hope and would build new again. It should've been another 80s.