Tantalum hafnium carbide and high speed aircraft

So we all here would love to see hypersonic 'devices' come into the mainstream.

they always site the problem of heat and material science not being able to provide a substance to withstand the heat.

that seem to be a stretch of the truth, this metallic compound Tantalum hafnium carbide has a melting point of over 7000F, well over it.


Also being a carbide it should be VERY hard.

here is the link to wiki as i can not upload pics at the moment WIKI


a metallic compound with a melting point well over 7000F is mind bending and other than its price seems like the perfect alloy for leading edges and other high heat areas.

it has good mechanical properties so you might even be able to build engine parts with it.

I feel like it is easy to get lost in what a new aircraft looks like and what it can do but there are always people who say that hypersonics are so hard because of the heat, but here we have a easily made and sourced compound that has ungodly melting points.

The best way i have found to look for rabbit holes is to find these odd outliers in manufacturing and alloys.

this stuff was discovered in the mid 60's so it is almost impossible for me to believe this carbide isn't in use somewhere in the aerospace world

a reply to: noscopebacon

Just replying to keep my nose in this thread, I consider most of what you wrote to have flown over my head at nearly hypersonic speed! But it sounds pretty cool and looking forward to what others in the know have to say about this stuff and it’s possible uses 😎

a reply to: noscopebacon
ex aerospace machinist here
alot goes into alloys/element applications in the aerospace industry

every alloy or element which excels in one aspect becomes unusable in other characteristics

carbide level anything is damn near unmachinable to start with but it's that rockwell hardness that turns
most element/alloy selections into non starters as loss of ductility becomes an issue as thermal expansion
causes heat checking/cracking

if you want to read up on something neat
read up on kelly johnson's of lockheed's skunk works fame
the SR-71 took the beast on in a full on assault of what's best suited for external surface applications
a balance of heat resistence,ductility and machinability met it's match with titanium being selected
i seem to recall in an engineering feat probably never to be close to being duplicated
they spent one month producing some 3,000 type of manufacturing test to produce a working skin design
to allow the SR-71 to operate in it's projected design goal that had to be met

for the most part metal spraying and bonding advances have long since been in focus
look at the entry surface of rockwell's space shuttle...ceramic tiles were best suited as a maximum
of scientific understandings at that time for operational design goals
ceramics far surpass carbide level

bmw even went as far using boron sleeves in engines
boron is like 1 step below diamond
good luck doing anything other then replacing those sleeves if damage occurs

we now even have synthetic diamonds harder then natural which was always the top of the food chain on hardness and heat resistance...can bonding operational design goals be met and achieved with advanced diamond like bonding

for the most part i believe element/metal spraying and bonding have become a settled issue

if you do read up on the background of the SR-71 design and build facts
you may also enjoy looking into one of my favorite alloys in " Nitinol "

i'm kind of long removed from staying current as i left the industry in the year 2000-ish

btw
the scientists at lawerence livermoore labs are one thing
but what studies in and of advancements are currently out at area51...we'll simply never know

i often wonder about other countries and what might be below their secrecy

for the most part
if the public knows of something it's because secrecy of it no longer applies
as they're onto next generation of alloy achievements or element applications
including elemental discoveries
it's why i love that CERN and it's potentials
shameful was when we shutdown our super collider build in texas

a reply to: noscopebacon

Hafnium Diboride is actually the ceramic of choice for sharp leading edges of hypersonic vehicles. The NASA Center I worked at conducted arc jet tests and flight tests on ballistic missile re-entry nose cones using this material about 25 years ago. Hafnium Diboride has a somewhat lower melting point but is stronger, has better thermal conductivity, and withstands thermal shock better.

ntrs.nasa.gov...

originally posted by: 1947boomer
a reply to: noscopebacon

Hafnium Diboride is actually the ceramic of choice for sharp leading edges of hypersonic vehicles. The NASA Center I worked at conducted arc jet tests and flight tests on ballistic missile re-entry nose cones using this material about 25 years ago. Hafnium Diboride has a somewhat lower melting point but is stronger, has better thermal conductivity, and withstands thermal shock better.

ntrs.nasa.gov...

nice
ceramic and boron...yup quite an alloy there

a reply to: lasvegasteddy

they sell pre made sputtering disks of this and the boron flavor so they are coating something with it.
you wouldnt need a very heavy film on top of a scaffolding ceramic or aerogel to make a very very heat resistant 'tile'

I'm thinking about the lip of a hypersonic inlet or the nose cone and other leading edges.

they could in theory be ceramic and just covered until launch/take off.



I actually know a SR-71 driver(pen pal if you will) and have gotten some very choice pictures, there was also alot more going on with it than just corrugated Ti body panels and a moveable inlet.

a reply to: 1947boomer

would make the perfect re entirety body, say of a MIRV.

The melting points of these materials are so high and with other tricks like boundary layer control and even active cooling to creating a false bow shock has been perfected for decades.

I have always wondered why hypersonics were seen as this almost unachievable threshold when we have all the pieces we need.



ETA


if you were to make the Hf radioactive you could also do some interesting things with that as far as aerospace, its a good alpha emitter

originally posted by: noscopebacon
a reply to: lasvegasteddy

they sell pre made sputtering disks of this and the boron flavor so they are coating something with it.
you wouldnt need a very heavy film on top of a scaffolding ceramic or aerogel to make a very very heat resistant 'tile'

I'm thinking about the lip of a hypersonic inlet or the nose cone and other leading edges.

they could in theory be ceramic and just covered until launch/take off.



I actually know a SR-71 driver(pen pal if you will) and have gotten some very choice pictures, there was also alot more going on with it than just corrugated Ti body panels and a moveable inlet.

thanks for the reply
my understanding from what little was released of the SR-71's concept to build always dropped my jaw was
what pratt-witney achieved with the J-58 design n build
funny to think this was 60 years ago type of advancements on the cutting edge

i love this stuff and cherished what my low level manufacturing allowed me to be part
one of my last jobs was at a foundry doing investment castings of pretty technical alloys