Where do your rights come from?

a reply to: SirHardHarry

Right defined:

noun
plural noun: rights
1.
that which is morally correct, just, or honorable.
"she doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong"

2. a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way.

I like two because it cuts to the quick of the matter you either view rights as a moral, or a legal obligation.

Moral implies at least for me rights are defined aka given by your creator/god legal implies a social/government contract aka given by government/society.

It's either or in my opinion and how you answer determines whether you lean towards collectivism on the left or individualism/limited government on the right.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: Stevenmonet

Since we have free will, do we really have God-given Rights? Or is that in the realm of what is "Caesar's"? I think it's the latter.

In the case of those of us in the USA, it's actually a Constitutional Right given to us by the countries founders.

God gave us free will. He also gives us responibility for our actions and consequences with how we use our free will. It is the same with all thinking and intelligent creatures in the heavenly realm. Angels have free will and some have abused that just as many humans have. And they all will pay the consequences.

For many humans God is very tolerant and merciful because of the sinful condition into which we are brought into the world by no choice of our own, and many people living bad lives because of the abuse of freewill by others, and their own ignorance of the universal issues that are in play. God, in his own due time, will eventually rectify all of this.

In the meantime we should use our freedoms for good while we have them. God permits human rule which is very oppressive, so we will suffer while humans continue to rule. Human rule is coming to an end though. And everyone will be judged for how they used their free will.

God wants us to use our free will to love him and our neighbor. To do it freely and not out of compulsion. He compluses no one to do anything. He teaches us by example how to behave and hopes that we all will. We all have the capacity to do what is right.

If we were not afforded the ability and freedom to chose to do either right or wrong we would be robots. The making of angels and of humankind with freedom and the capacity and ability to love is God's greatest gift to us. And part of what makes us like him.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

Then you define right as moral aka rights coming from god or god decides what is right.

My hypothesis would put you to the right of the political spectrum. Aka more for limited government than collectivism.

originally posted by: Stevenmonet
a reply to: MidnightHawk

Then you define right as moral aka rights coming from god or god decides what is right.

My hypothesis would put you to the right of the political spectrum. Aka more for limited government than collectivism.

That is possible. I myself have never involved myself in the politics of this world in any of the countries where I have resided. If you are talking of political ideology many of my ideas would be both left and right leaning. But as it is I am neutral to worldly politics. I have taken stand for God's kingdom which is not a part of this world.

So it is not that I take no sides. My side is just not of this world.

This is just a hypothesis. I'm not advocating either way. I'm just saying there is a strong correlation between how you define right.

If you define it morally as by your creator/god, then I hypothesize you lean to the right or towards a more limited government.


If you define it legally as by your society/government I hypothesize you lean left or towards a more collectivist form of government.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

You say you have no political affiliations and that is fine neither do I.

Like you I find myself to be a mix of left and right, but I put myself down as center leaning right because I believe the government should have a very limited scope and size.

Do you feel the government where you reside should be limited in scope and size, if so I put you to the center right like myself.

If you are ok with the government regulating any action as long as it is for the common good I would put you to the center left.

This is why I put theocracy on the right because a true theocracy has god deciding/ruling over all matters aka god decides what is/gives rights no one else.

a reply to: Stevenmonet

What makes you think you have any rights?

Your a commodity to be traded bought and sold just like any other.

Hence the national security/national insurance number you are issued when registered at birth.

a reply to: andy06shake

This thread is not just for Americans, but let's roll with it.

In your opinion I and I asume by extension you are slaves to the government and rights dont exist unless it says so.

Is that correct and if so is this a sytem you advocate for, or would you advocate for something differnt?

If different, would you limit governments scope and size or expand it further.

a reply to: Stevenmonet

It was never about left or right, as both extremes lead to a tyrannical government.

The Declaration of Independence declares that "the laws of Nature and Nature's God" are the source of man's rights. The natural rights listed and protected by the Bill of Rights existed before government, and in no way depend on government for their existence. The U.S. Supreme Court has declared this fact. These are known as absolute rights. Absolute rights belong to us due to the nature of our existence, are "unalienable" and "self-evident."

The right to protect yourself.

The right to succeed or fail without interference.

The right to speak freely your ideas without government intervention.

Just go down the list of the first set of Amendments.

As for the rather absurd notion some have on the "separation of Church and State" in the Constitution, please point out the phrase for me in it.

The 1st Amendment was written as it was so that the Government could not impose a certain religion.

NOT that religion had no place in Government.

The opposite is actually true.

a reply to: Lumenari

George Carlin said we don’t have rights , we have temporary privileges and we know how he felt about God . If someone could post that it’d be appreciated and we all could use a laugh I’m sure

a reply to: Stevenmonet

That's sound I'm not an American.

Although the thread is for everyone.

Its not my opinion mate is simple fact of the matter.

No i don't advocate for absolute control as it corrupts absolutely.

Nor do i have the magic recipe for the paradigm shift and/or kick in the arse our race requires to realise her true potential and address some of the larger questions and problems we face together.

A one world government is inevitable if we are ever to become a stage one civilisation, advocation or otherwise.

How we get there can be as painful or enjoyable as we choose, but the alternative is to stagnate and die on the vine.

We wont ever build a utopia down to the human condition, but we may get off this rock and on to greener pastures should we try hard and put aside our petty differences and squabbles.

Anyhoo nice to spit bail the universe with you. up:

originally posted by: Thenail
a reply to: Lumenari

George Carlin said we don’t have rights , we have temporary privileges and we know how he felt about God . If someone could post that it’d be appreciated and we all could use a laugh I’m sure

George Carlin made himself a multi-millionaire mocking the very system that made him one.

a reply to: Lumenari

Poke the bear?

As long as you make them chortle it's all good.

since the first democracy was greece, were the "rights" of the greeks granted by their "gods"?

if our country were to fall, would we still have our "rights"?

if we go to another country, do we take our "rights", or do we surrender them at the border of the country we enter?

your "rights" are based on the laws of the country youre currently in, therefore your "rights" come from the gov, not a "god".

I'm loving the wide range of responses, and any data is great. Some just takes a little extra work to eek out a data set.

I'm surprised no one has said a simple yes or no to my hypothesis, but that is good because I get a more nuanced view.

As some have hinted their be no correlation between the two.

If nothing else at least this is an engaging topic for me.

I'm glad we now have a common definition of rights that has helped me boil my thesis down.

I'm also finding all your feedback has helped me better define my own definition what fits where in my own view of left/right in political ideology.

Left/right should/shouldn't does doesn't exist is less of an issue once you boil it down to advocating for bigger or smaller governmental scope or reach into your daily life.

More government/social control by humans = left governed only by your god/creator aka less government by humans= right.

You can put your current form of government anywhere in that spectrum and still advocate towards one side or the other.

The more I work on defining my terms the better my data becomes. I love it.

Does anyone recommend a better definition for determining whether somone leans left or right ideologically regarding politics?

Left/right politically speaking doesn't exist is not a helpful answer, though I fully respect the view point.

This is because politics in my opinion requires counter parties. Those counter parties though similar must at least have enough divergence in order to counter act a slide to either extreme of no law of men, and man makes all law.

Can you have politics without counter parties?

You can say any divergence in political ideologies is by deception, but that is only admiting you see us at one extreme but if you are against it you are the counter party, no one is fully content politically so only what direction you advocate for matters.

At least this is how I see it.

originally posted by: stormson
since the first democracy was greece, were the "rights" of the greeks granted by their "gods"?

if our country were to fall, would we still have our "rights"?

if we go to another country, do we take our "rights", or do we surrender them at the border of the country we enter?

your "rights" are based on the laws of the country youre currently in, therefore your "rights" come from the gov, not a "god".

Natural rights preclude any form of government.

The Declaration of Independence declares that "the laws of Nature and Nature's God" are the source of man's rights.

Note that is doesn't state anywhere "Man's God."

A proper government protects those rights, however.

It is a pretty simple concept.

One that our Constitution was framed around.

A pity that people cannot seem to understand that.

Any animal on this earth inherently has the right to protect themselves, to procreate, to attempt to better themselves and their offspring and live their lives as they see fit, dependent on their own abilities.

That is not given by a "government."

But it most certainly can be taken away by one.

a reply to: Thenail
Do you think Carlin's beliefs on the origins of rights gives us the data we need, or do we need to know whether he advocated for increasing the governments scope and size or shrinking it

Do you think Carlin gave us any indication of his true feelings or did he present us with our own conflicting beliefs and ask us to question them without revealing much of his own?

He was a great comedian either way.

I would say Carlin hated the fact that the government aka the club we ain't in thinks it can decide your legal rights because it behaves in apparantly immoral ways such as by pretending to have a monopoly on force.

Hence he would fit my hypothesis as morally defining right and wanting to limit the size/scope of the club we ain't In.

Do you agree or disagree?

a reply to: Stevenmonet

My Rights come from my understanding of my needs and the moralistic values I live by.

The world does what it wants, I bend when I must and rest steadfast when I must.

originally posted by: Stevenmonet
2. a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way.

I'd say this puts us back at square one, what is an entitlement and what makes one moral or legal?

a reply to: Lumenari

I agree with what you are saying. America was founded by men who felt their rights come from god who formed a very limited government.

This fits my hypothesis.

Separation of church and state as you define it is also how I see the founders of America defining it when they wrote the document.

So my questions were: do you beleive your rights come from your god/creator like America's founders did, or do your rights come from the documents/customs your government/society calls laws/social norms?

Do you think your government should be larger and or have more oversight over your daily activities, or do you think your government should be smaller and/or have less oversight over your daily actions?

You could also just say yes the hypothesis fits for me or no it doesn't. As much as I love and value for input I need more Info to turn it into a usable data set.