Does God Judge a Nation for it's Leaders or It's People?

It's a question asked recently in another forum I frequent. My response to the answer is as follows:

In my view this question presumes the innocence of the people for the condition of the state.

Standards are not what we say they are. Standards are what we do. Standards can also be set by what we don't do.

Our relationship with God is personal. Our accountability for our actions will be judged as our own. In order for a whole nation to draw the ire of God, it is because that society has refused to set standards for itself and has tolerated abuse after abuse.

Oppression is, contrary to popular belief, a shared responsibility between the oppressed and the oppressor. God wants us to be free.

To allow tyranny when Christians have a duty to oppose and even fight tyranny is to disobey the will of God directly. The reward for chosing to live under the yoke of tyranny is the suffering that will accompany that choice.

What say you Christian ATS?

a reply to: projectvxn

I say there was a section in the OT where the people of Israel demanded a King, and God gave them one while warning them they may come to regret it.

We get what we ask for. In this case, a reprobate people get a reprobate leader, and in the OT Israel was judged accordingly when she fell as a nation from the ways God set for her.

I think hard times are coming although God will take care of His own as He can. None of that means times will not get hard for us, indeed, I think they'll get very, very hard indeed, but it has been my experience that God has always put me where I need to be in life and I've always been faithful to Him. Whatever comes, it's for the best one way or another.

a reply to: projectvxn

I doubt God would judge a nation as as a whole, most nations are evil at times, if not in general.
people who make choices to either do good things, or do bad things (imho) will be judged for their actions.
And God sees it all, even what you do in the bathroom with the door shut.

God judges on both if one looks at the OT only.

From the Old Testament:
God judged nations on the basis of how their leaders behaved.
God also judged nations on the behavior of their people.

From the New Testament:
God is a loving God who gives everyone a chance.
IF and only IF a person forgives those who do them wrong.
IF and only IF a person is sorry for what they have done wrong and attempt to do better in the future.
IF and only IF they treat others how they want to be treated themselves (Jesus' singular command to the people)
IF and only IF they believe

As for other religions:
Islamic: No one can ever know if they are good enough to not have judgement passed on them, they will only know after they die and if they follow a strict set of rules and laws
Judaic: See OT God judges based on the behavior of leaders AND behavior of the people.

I can't speak for the other religions as I don't know enough about them, except Karma seems to play a large part: You get exactly what you deserve based on how you behave on earth.

Atheists: There is no God, so do whatever you need to in order to gain power, be successful, get money, obtain personal gratification. There are no consequences so you are free to do whatever you must to others in order to obtain personal power, success, money and gratification. Because this is all there is.

What I think for today:
God is judging the world based on how people behave toward one another.
Which is horrible, awful and hedonistic in the US today.
God is also judging the world based on the leaders. Most of which, from my perspective, have the perspective and ideology of atheists and are judged by God accordingly.

a reply to: network dude

Spiritually, there is some question about how much God was involved in the shaping of the nation. If He was involved, then He could indeed judge us as a whole.

Considering the Democrats have turned their back on Him as a party and they now rule ... well, we could be in for it.

Either way we're in trouble.Whole world seems to be too.

If the people elect the leader then the people are to blame.

Revolution is hateful in God's sight cf. e.g., "Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people." (Exodus 22.28) or "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." (Romans 13.1)

A popular saying is "a fish rots from the head down", well, let the people, the body, not indulge in immorality, that is not rot, and the head will remain fresh or recover sanity. Modus Tollens.

"We get the government we deserve".

originally posted by: tamusan
If the people elect the leader then the people are to blame.

Of course, there is some question about whether or not we actually fairly elected this particular leader, and in any particular election, there are those who do not vote for the leader.

I've always felt that God gave Israel kings to match their status.

but I can't prove that.

one thing I'm not aware of, is a king dragging a hostile people into a relationship with God.

interesting discussion. I have always thought of the USA as a moral and Christian nation that didn't like what the progressives were up to. now I wonder who has the numbers.

a reply to: ElGoobero

I think there are two problems.

The first is that the bad people have the power, and Christians aren't willing to do what it would take to wrestle power for themselves. It might be different if it came to a straight up fight - open and honest. But we're talking about people who fight through foul means that would make a Christian cringe because you would have to go back on your principle and faith in a way to fight like a progressive does.

Look at Trump. He was in no way a Godly man. We all know that. He did immoral things in the past that would disqualify him often in many races, but Christians looked past that to vote for him because we also knew he would let us live our faith and uphold government in a manner so as not to impede us in doing so.

Progressives still don't want that fair fight. So maybe it isn't the that they have the numbers after all.

The second problem is that most Christians are of the lukewarm variety and are go-along-to-get-along. They've altered their faith to make allowances for so many things so the culture at large will leave them alone. They aren't standing up for the faith.

For just electing a bad leader? No ..

For supporting a leader or a King that is doing bad/nefarious things that you try to justify, then yes I believe!

But then we get into the debate of what is and isn't justified or bad etc and it seems not so cut and dry.

At the end of the day though, I don't think many of us have seriously bad intentions, no matter who we support, we are all just trying to find a better life and make the World a better place for our kids and our neighbors. God would not ignore our core intentions.

Just my opinion though, I know nothing less or more than the next person!

Mortals pretending to know the mind of God, is a sin all unto itself.

biblehub.com...

a reply to: olaru12

I was taught (Catholic School ...yes am awaiting the hate I usually get when I say that anywhere) It's not a sin to ponder things, especially since there are like a million translations of said things to ponder.

That's different of course to outright stating you KNOW what God thinks, but it is not a sin to read and think about Gods words.

originally posted by: valiant
a reply to: olaru12

I was taught (Catholic School ...yes am awaiting the hate I usually get when I say that anywhere) It's not a sin to ponder things, especially since there are like a million translations of said things to ponder.

That's different of course to outright stating you KNOW what God thinks, but it is not a sin to read and think about Gods words.

Human arrogance knows no bounds. They think they are God in the judgment of others.

Judge not lest ye be judged...Matt..7:1 KJV

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: valiant
a reply to: olaru12

I was taught (Catholic School ...yes am awaiting the hate I usually get when I say that anywhere) It's not a sin to ponder things, especially since there are like a million translations of said things to ponder.

That's different of course to outright stating you KNOW what God thinks, but it is not a sin to read and think about Gods words.

Human arrogance knows no bounds. They think they are God in the judgment of others.

I cannot disagree with you there for the most part!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ElGoobero

I think there are two problems.

The first is that the bad people have the power, and Christians aren't willing to do what it would take to wrestle power for themselves. It might be different if it came to a straight up fight - open and honest. But we're talking about people who fight through foul means that would make a Christian cringe because you would have to go back on your principle and faith in a way to fight like a progressive does.

agree. Republicans / conservatives cannot get into the gutter like the progs/Democrats.

Look at Trump. He was in no way a Godly man. We all know that. He did immoral things in the past that would disqualify him often in many races, but Christians looked past that to vote for him because we also knew he would let us live our faith and uphold government in a manner so as not to impede us in doing so.

agree. Trump no saint but infinitely better than the alternatives.

Progressives still don't want that fair fight. So maybe it isn't the that they have the numbers after all.

impossible to have any kind of debate when 90% of the media is taking one side.

The second problem is that most Christians are of the lukewarm variety and are go-along-to-get-along. They've altered their faith to make allowances for so many things so the culture at large will leave them alone. They aren't standing up for the faith.

agree. if every 'Christian' in the USA voted their faith we'd have a completely different gummint.

I wonder that God is deliberately letting the USA slide into third world status to bring about the next step of prophecy.

thanks Ketsuko for thoughtful post.

originally posted by: tamusan
If the people elect the leader then the people are to blame.

Interesting that you said that, it brought to mind a situation that occurred this past Wednesday.

I bought a bag of chips. A brand new bag, proper labeling, and well within the best used by date. I opened the bag and all the chips were stale.

I guess you can say it was my fault. I chose the store, I selected the bag from the shelf, and I paid for it. But I did not make the chips stale. I did not purchase the chips with that intent, and I disposed of the bag when it failed to live up to what I had expected, when I paid my money for the bag of chips.

Now I have thought of several reasons about what could have gone wrong that made that bag of chips stale, but none of them even came close to being my fault.

So, using that analogy, I would say that electing a leader would be our choice, but if the leader turns out to be bad, that would not be the fault of the people that elected him/her.

a reply to: projectvxn

Read the old testament, when Israelite Kings served God faithfully the nation prospered, when they went to the dark side, the entire nation suffered.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

In the case of the leader we have now, anyone should have seen the train wreck coming a million miles off.