The History of the Vymanika Shastra

Originally posted by scorpionxx
someone on this thread asked why the british didn't use that indian fellows flying machine for there own military. I don't feel like reading over then huge posts(where do yall find the time to type all that?) so heres a link with something at the bottom of the page about why they never used it or at least as clsoe to an answer as you'll get.

www.world-mysteries.com...

Actually, I've seen some of the artifacts in context in their museums and seen better photos of them. The Egyptian model ONLY looks like an airplane if you photograph it from select angles. If you walk around the thing, it's very clearly a bird.

The gold artifacts are things I've seen in person in museums here in Dallas and in Costa Rica. They're insects, done in a very stylistic artistic technique. When you see them in the museum cases along with the frogs, birds, shaman-gods, and other figures from the same civilization and the same time period, it's pretty clear that they're not airplanes.

...and so forth.

At the end of the day the Vymanika Shastra was written in the early 20th century, and there is no reason to think it wasn't.

Going back to an earlier point - the highly unlikely "mercury engine" was meant to generate "thunder power". What is this exactly? Does it have anything to do with the Thunder Cats?

I am a very modest person. I am a genius and the cleverest person on ATS.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
I am a very modest person. I am a genius and the cleverest person on ATS.

Maybe you weren't here for April Fools Day . The cleverest person on ATS is whoever had the idea that all of the mods should ban themselves for a day.

Too bad they didn't graffiti the board to make it look like a genuine hacking That would have created a REAL buzz.

Originally posted by Byrd
Lallacharya’s classification of metals is distinct in it’s own way and it is source- related as follows.

Kritaka or artificial
Corrupted
Mud-born
Aquatic
Mineral-born
Vegetation born
Evolved from vermin
Flesh born
Grown from salt
Hair born and egg born

Now, I'm not a professional geologist, but I *do* know that ores do not "evolve from vermin" or come from vermin in any shape or form. Nor do they come from flesh, hair, or egg.

Well, let's start with your contentions first. Man! The things you learn studying geology. In fact, verminogenic- or specifically, bacteriogenic- iron ores are continuing sources of ultra-high-quality pig iron for the manufacture of crucible steels used in the aerospace industry.

Aerospace science does not consist of physics alone, but involves biology in the form of aerospace medicine. And a major field of interest is that of contamination- of flesh, hair, and yes eggs- by toxic aerospace metals such as lead and cadmium.

Let me address the other 'weird items' on the list:

Kritaka or artificial (monocrystalline metals)
Corrupted (alloyed or oxidized)
Mud-born (sedimentary deposition of ores)
Aquatic (metals in solution, such as dissolved gold in seawater)
Mineral-born (this we all agree is not weird)
Vegetation born (plants do concentrate metals - chromium, vanadium, etc.)
Grown from salt (elctrolytic reduction of base metals from salts)

So at second glance this list is scientific. Whether it is ancient is another question.

Working with Hindus in the aerospace industry, I have learned never to underestimate them, always to respect their intellect, and to always take pains to re-translate their English for the intended meaning.


[edit on 10-4-2005 by Chakotay]

You want us to discuss the evidence, I thought that Vagabond was doing that with this thread, though i think its now a little sidetracked. The problem with your evidence is that it isnt compelling, you continually refer to ancient legends as if they are facts and extrapolate your theories accordingly. You dont provide sound arechaeology, and when you do its vauge

there is an an entire ancient urban city found with a underground sewage system that is as good as most modern sanitations systems

There is no referenceing, and when read like that, not even any evidence for the point you are trying to make! Where is the evidence of advanced civilisation? The Romans built good sanitation systems, yet i dont see you claiming that they flew around the world, had nuclear wars etc etc.

I was curious about this myself so did a little searching, the link below shows some photos of the Mohenjo-daro sewer system. Sophisticated considering the time frame? Yes. As good as most modern sanitation systems? I would have to say no.

www.sewerhistory.org...

Sorry to be late replying, Chakotay... grad school kinda eats the time up.

Originally posted by Chakotay

Originally posted by Byrd
Lallacharya’s classification of metals is distinct in it’s own way and it is source- related as follows.

Kritaka or artificial
Corrupted
Mud-born
Aquatic
Mineral-born
Vegetation born
Evolved from vermin
Flesh born
Grown from salt
Hair born and egg born

Now, I'm not a professional geologist, but I *do* know that ores do not "evolve from vermin" or come from vermin in any shape or form. Nor do they come from flesh, hair, or egg.

Well, let's start with your contentions first. Man! The things you learn studying geology. In fact, verminogenic- or specifically, bacteriogenic- iron ores are continuing sources of ultra-high-quality pig iron for the manufacture of crucible steels used in the aerospace industry.

You'll notice from your link, though, that these are found in fairly extreme conditions (I was aware of them, BTW) and that there is no evidence that these have been mined before this discovery.

Nor is there any evidence that they understood and classified microbes.

Aerospace science does not consist of physics alone, but involves biology in the form of aerospace medicine. And a major field of interest is that of contamination- of flesh, hair, and yes eggs- by toxic aerospace metals such as lead and cadmium.

Cart before the horse, there, Chakotay. Those aren't natural sources of contamination in the metal ores. Those are caused by human activity. The ores don't come from eggs, flesh, or hair... as the scriptures indicate.

Let me address the other 'weird items' on the list:

Kritaka or artificial (monocrystalline metals)
Corrupted (alloyed or oxidized)
Mud-born
(...etc... trimmed your nice list for brevity...)

I don't dispute SOME of the other methods of formation (and that shouldn't have been implied from my list). BUT I do dispute that the "egg and flesh" and other impossibles were pretty much the same level of knowledge that the Greeks had -- in other words, it did not indicate sophisticated knowledge of the universe that's unmatched by our current understanding.

Working with Hindus in the aerospace industry, I have learned never to underestimate them, always to respect their intellect, and to always take pains to re-translate their English for the intended meaning.

I've discovered that for all people, no matter their country of origin. However, sometimes you can read too much into an allusion which causes further problems. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Hi, not meaning to resurrect an old thread, which still has no counter for the evidence presented. However, it is clear enough that ancient Indian mineralogy and the classification system was quite developed, corroborated by many existing texts on ancient Indian chemistry and minerals, which a single search online would satisfy.

That, however, is not the contention of this thread. The contention is did Ancient Indians have advanced technology, and the evidence would seem to suggest that this is very likely. However, those times have gone, and no one wants to live in the past. So I'm just going to let it go and concentrate on the here and now

[edit on 9-5-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_ChildThat, however, is not the contention of this thread. The contention is did Ancient Indians have advanced technology, and the evidence would seem to suggest that this is very likely.

Actually, it doesn't.

We don't find furnaces capable of producing these metals until the time that everyone else in the world got them, we don't find ceramic compounds far more sophisticated than the technology of that time (we do find "cutting edge" ones, but not "mllennia ahead of their times" ones), there are no contemporary (to those times) paintings or engravings of this technology (though they drew almost everything else), and most importantly no remains of machines.

Instead we have modern reworkings of ancient religious texts to "mean" new things.

However, those times have gone, and no one wants to live in the past. So I'm just going to let it go and concentrate on the here and now

[edit on 9-5-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Yeah... it's finals week, here, and I'm SO not focused on stuff. I need to worry less about this interesting subject (which did make me go look up a LOT of stuff about ancient India and I'm quite a bit more aware of things than I was, including the contributions to some branches of math) and go do... papers!

Nah. I'm not really griping. It's a privelege to be back in school!

Yeah Byrd, good luck on your paper. Yeah, I have likewise learnt a lot about Ancient India, and Ancient Greece too, thanks to some of the informaton you shared. These are very interesting subjects, but sometimes we become so engrossed in them, we lose sight of the here and now, which is the only place where we can get anything done.

[edit on 9-5-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by The Vagabond

1979: GR Josyer publishes an English version of Vimanika Shastra based on the notebooks, with the additions added in 1923.

From one vagabond to another, I think some clarifications are in order ....

The 1979 effort was, I believe, made by the older Josyar's son or nephew -- G.S. Josyar. I have vague recollection of writing to this gentleman in the early 90's if he would send me a copy of the translation. After 2 or 3 weeks I received a response from him (in an ancient airmail letter which was about to disintegrate!) asking me to send him a fairly large sum of money in $$.

Instead of doing that, I had my brother bring me a copy from Bangalore on his next visit in 1992. If I look hard enough in my basement, I might even find this book. Having read it, seen the drawings, and verified some of the translations myself (after all, I did study Sanskrit as second language through the Years 1963 to 1972 from grade 7 all the way to my undergrad degree) my conclusion was simple:

Whether or not Bharadwaja knew his stuff is unknown. But then, is he not one of the seven sages who according to the scriptures, Timeless? The distortion which whatever narrative he may have composed has been subjected to, precludes making any sense out of it. As a matter of fact, I could say this of a whole bunch of these scriptures including the Bible, the Gilgamesh epic, and WhatHaveYou. The soruces knew what they were doing, but the interpreters have removed all credibility to their creations by trying to make it more "believable" in their Time and Day.

The concept of building the structure of this craft with sticks taken out of branches from fallen trees is laughable at best. And no I do not have "proof" of that ... it is my own reading of the book which is toted as the ancient treatise on AeroDynamics.

And the propulsion? Ah, yes .. Newton (or was it Cavendish?) is attributed to saying that in Mercury lay the secrets of the future. Somehow, that seems to have snuck into this narrative ....

Sadly, though ... even if there was some advanced technology hidden in these scriptures, it has been totally undermined by distortion from the fundamentalist fanatism of the narrators.


[edit on 5-7-2005 by Ramster]

Originally posted by Ramster

Whether or not Bharadwaja knew his stuff is unknown. But then, is he not one of the seven sages who according to the scriptures, Timeless? The distortion which whatever narrative he may have composed has been subjected to, precludes making any sense out of it. As a matter of fact, I could say this of a whole bunch of these scriptures including the Bible, the Gilgamesh epic, and WhatHaveYou. The soruces knew what they were doing, but the interpreters have removed all credibility to their creations by trying to make it more "believable" in their Time and Day.

I appreciate you sharing your point of view on this, and it is an interesting one. For me however, not being a person of any substantial faith of any kind, I find it difficult to entertain the assumption of a credible source except for purely speculative reasons. I can bare to speculate that maybe Bharadwaja is the true and reliable source, and with that assumption in place the logic does more or less work. However, I because I do not have any real reason to believe that assumption as undeniable truth, I can not embrace the VS as necessarily having any real value of any kind.

You and I can, however, agree that IF the VS was legitimate, the manuscript as it currently exists is heavily tainted by the interpretations of people who didn't know what they were doing, and is essentially of no help to us now.

Also, I could propose another speculation, for you to consider. If Bharadwaja is timeless, does that mean that the technology the VS is intended to describe may not have ever existed yet, but may be future knowledge already held by the timeless sage?
I don't read the Vedas- I don't know the first thing about Bharadwaja- I'm just tossing that out to make civil conversation on the subject.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

....
I can bare to speculate that maybe Bharadwaja is the true and reliable source, and with that assumption in place the logic does more or less work.
However, I because I do not have any real reason to believe that assumption as undeniable truth, I can not embrace the VS as necessarily having any real value of any kind.

You and I can, however, agree that IF the VS was legitimate, the manuscript as it currently exists is heavily tainted by the interpretations of people who didn't know what they were doing, and is essentially of no help to us now.

Also, I could propose another speculation, for you to consider. If Bharadwaja is timeless, does that mean that the technology the VS is intended to describe may not have ever existed yet, but may be future knowledge already held by the timeless sage?
I don't read the Vedas- I don't know the first thing about Bharadwaja- I'm just tossing that out to make civil conversation on the subject.

My question about Bharadwaja being Timeless was mostly rhetoric. At the Time I had only a few Minutes and I had to be brief.

The scriptures .. the Vishnu Purana, in particular, states that this Universe is cyclical, and that birth and death are mere cycles. For each cycle there is a chosen progenitor, generically called a Manu. The seven sages, it is said, survive these cycles of life and death of the Universe and are in Yoga Samadhi in between cycles. Bharadwaja is said to be one of the seven.

This much is known to many. Whether or not to believe these texts is in the eye of the beholder.

The Vimanika Shasthra is attributed to Maharshi Bharadwaja in it's very title on the cover of the book. Like most other Sanskrit texts, this too probably was handed down by word of mouth over generations, and has been subjected to interpretation and distortion.

My feeling is we will never know what was originally composed, as in the case of most of these "holy books". Perhaps at some future Date we will run into some alien culture which is familiar with these concepts. Or perhaps we will ourselves evolve into a level of technology sufficiently advanced to decipher these texts in the spirit they were originally written. Until then, all that is left is speculation which the human kind has engaged in with its fertile imagination. That there is so much symbolism in the Hindu system doesn't make things any easier either.

Like you say, in its present state, the VS is pretty much useless.

Vedas would not probably get classified in the same category VS. They are more about concepts, rituals, the logic of existence, and such. The Aranyakas and Brahmanas were the preamble to the Upanishads, which were more like explanatory treatises of the Vedas. Fascinating reads all of them, but at the same Time, need to be taken with a grain of salt ...

[edit on 5-7-2005 by Ramster]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Hi, not meaning to resurrect an old thread.... The contention is did Ancient Indians have advanced technology.... However, those times have gone, and no one wants to live in the past. So I'm just going to let it go and concentrate on the here and now

[edit on 9-5-2005 by Indigo_Child]

never ever have i seen such detailed postings from ONE person !
sad, to see "just going to let it go"

i don't want to 'resurrect' this old thread .. but surely would welcome 'contact' with such a tenacious person .. even off-list

Originally posted by The Vagabond

.... I can not embrace the VS as necessarily having any real value of any kind.

You and I can, however, agree that IF the VS was legitimate, the manuscript as it currently exists is heavily tainted by the interpretations of people who didn't know what they were doing, and is essentially of no help to us now.
...

I don't read the Vedas- I don't know the first thing about Bharadwaja- I'm just tossing that out to make civil conversation on the subject.

that's a real nice way to put things .. 'civil conversation' .. ;-)

it would be interesting to consider the 'other' document from china .. written in chinese script .. not the 'channelled' thingy of shastry

which was tranlated by a western professor in chandigarh from chinese to english .. and was about making aircraft



a different question : when were hub motors invented in modern times ?
(the reason i ask will be clear when i respond to an answer to the above)

Originally posted by qwerasdfit would be interesting to consider the 'other' document from china .. written in chinese script .. not the 'channelled' thingy of shastry

which was tranlated by a western professor in chandigarh from chinese to english .. and was about making aircraft

a different question : when were hub motors invented in modern times ?
(the reason i ask will be clear when i respond to an answer to the above)

It took some fairly skilled googling to find anything about the document you are referring to when all you'd given was the place where it was translated, but I found it.

The story goes that Dr. Ruth Reyna, University of Chandigarh, translated a few sanskrit documents found in Lhasa, Tibet. They supposedly dealt with anti-gravity (explaining that it was done in a way similar to levitation by Yogis) and spoke of a planned trip to the moon (though they did not say that anyone had actually flown).- this was reported by the India Times in the spring of '03.

The little trouble hairs on the back of my neck are standing up though.
1. Because nobody can give text from or even the name of the work in question. 2. There is no information on the discovery of the documents.
3. The documents are said to date from the 4th century BC, but at that time the Zhang Zhung culture held Tibet and early Bon was still in. That means that the language and religion ascribed to the documents are both wrong for the given date, to the best of my understanding (keeping in mind that I'm no anthropologist).
4. Because I can't find any legitimate mention of Dr. Ruth Reyna online. She's not in the Chinese-Tibetan languages department at Chandigarh, she's not in their Vedic Studies program, to the best of my knowledge she doesn't work there, or necessarily exist at all, but she's the translator.


It's interesting because it wasn't written this century, the only problem is that I still don't have enough evidence to be certain that it was ever written at all. If you have anymore information I could use to search more, that would be nice.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by qwerasdfit would be interesting to consider the 'other' document from china .. written in chinese script .. not the 'channelled' thingy of shastry

which was tranlated by a western professor in chandigarh from chinese to english .. and was about making aircraft

It took some fairly skilled googling to find anything about the document you are referring to when all you'd given was the place where it was translated, but I found it...... the only problem is that I still don't have enough evidence to be certain that it was ever written at all. If you have anymore information I could use to search more, that would be nice.

wow ! that's tenacity ! .. i am not an authority .. and my curiosity is what makes me find out things ..

nope .. no more information on this 'un-channelled' writing .. sounds dicey too .. anything coming from news paper reporters is usually sensationalism based .. and quite apt to be nutty .. even false

the 'sanskrit' written in 'chinese script' does amaze me though ! wierd isn't it ?

Originally posted by qwerasdfthe 'sanskrit' written in 'chinese script' does amaze me though ! wierd isn't it ?

I didn't see any indication of it being written in Chinese script. When you first mentioned that part I initially suspected that this would be about the library found in the Tarim Basin around the Turfan Oasis. They actually discovered several new languages there, including existing languages written in scripts other than their native one.

If you haven't heard that one I really suggest that you check it out on ATS and wikipedia en.wikipedia.org... Fairly fascinating stuff. A mummy-making culture, up to its neck in Buddhism, yet with distinctly European clothing hanging out along the silk road... talk about things that make you go hmm.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by qwerasdfthe 'sanskrit' written in 'chinese script' does amaze me though ! wierd isn't it ?

I didn't see any indication of it being written in Chinese script.....things that make you go hmm.

i guess seeing this site will enlighten us a bit :

sfl.pku.edu.cn...

i am not really trying to prove that sanskrit did exist in the chinese script .. and so i am not trying to find out supporting info on that either

i find it wierd that sanskrit exists at all in other scripts outside india .. whether the tibetan script or ancient tibetan scripts or arabic or other scripts

makes sanskrit a 'universal' thingy .. not an 'indian' proprietory !

the point is .. if indians concocted 'sciences' and 'wars of the nuclear kind' .. then were the other countries nutty too ?

or .. is there any iota of 'possibility' of there being 'some substance' in the ancient texts .. whether they re-surface in india, tibet, china, middle east, germany (max muler), etc

in another thread (vedic science) i have given a verse which gives the value of pi to 32 decimal places .. the issue there is NOT whether the verse is original, old, etc .. but who KNEW the value of PI to 32 decimal places ?

this codified representation of scientific data does appear mysterious

indians are too diversified to have a unfied theory of fooling the world .. indians are their own best critics and opponents ;-)

debates are a way of life .. even in ancient stories, mythology etc .. and debates about 'theories' on religion etc are commonly accepted facts of life (aadi shankaracharya's findings/writings on sanatan dharma as argued out with the learned mandan mishra and later his wife .. on male/female natures .. is a rather recent phenomena)

strangely, there is a continuum of 'concepts' across the board .. in a humungous number of documents and texts (scriptures or other treatise included)

Originally posted by The Vagabond

library found in the Tarim Basin around the Turfan Oasis. They actually discovered several new languages there, including existing languages written in scripts other than their native one.

oh great ! i am confused and doubtful enough about the 'facts' of ancient thingys written in ancient sanskrit in the ancient devnagri which decended from the ancient brahmi language created by brahma !

and now this ! .. what ARE these things ? another series of carefully doctored lies, myths, frauds ? .. the confusion increses !

Originally posted by The Vagabond

wikipedia en.wikipedia.org... Fairly fascinating stuff.... talk about things that make you go hmm.

it doesn't make me go hmm ..

it makes me kayo'ed ;-)

as if i didn't have enough troubles trying to be sure about the 'science' in ancient indian texts (sanskrit ones) .. now i find other countries having similar texts .. in different scripts !

and now i find that there are many texts other than those in india ! and they decended from brahmi ! .. cheez ! this is making me dizzy !

www.omniglot.com...

i recognise the 'structure' based on phonetics only sooo well .. it is exactly the same as the indian languages ! only the forms are different ! same consonants, same vowels ! goodness gracious .. even the vowels are used in the SAME way .. stand alone they are complete forms .. added to consonants, they 'modify' .. err .. 'morph' .. the consonants .. exactly as is done in devanagri

gimme a break .. tell me there is sense in this wide spread 'spoken' sanskritic language .. but written in all kinds of scripts .. same 'dictionaries' .. 'kosha' .. and the same oft-repeated good vs bad .. rama story .. and the massive epic mahabharata .. and the same kind of god, demi-gods, time scales and what not

this is heady stuff .. and you are (apparently) neck deep into all this

so .. what's the deal ?

all these mountains of writings should be taken with a grain of salt .. or ???? (i don't want to believe in these things unless there is proof ! .. and that means to me .. the 'science' contained in those writings .. in india or in tocha-whatever, and china and pakistan and afghanistan and greece or wherever .. that "science" CAN be the only thing that should PROVE that there are SOME facts)

otherwise this is all flying stuff .. flights and fancies .. dreams and concotions to serve as passtimes .. on a rather MASSIVE scale .. to fool a huge mass of humanity !