A Structural Reevaluation of the Collapse of World Trade Center 7

a reply to: Gandalf77

Do you understand if explosives were used, a shockwave / pressure wave with the energy to cut steel columns would be at least 130db in loudness, louder than most helicopters at 110 dB (I believe the scale is exponential, so a 130 dB blast would be 100 times louder than a helicopter generating sound at 110db), the detonations would be clearly discernible on the audio of video, and so would be the echos of the detonations.

There is video of a reporter with their back turned to WTC 7 when it starts to collapse. The reporter had to be told to turn and look at the collapse they were oblivious to.

Below is what happens when you try to have a serious discussion....

WTC 7 fell in relative silence, no detonation capable of cutting steel.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Gandalf77

So? Can you produce collapse video of WTC 7 that has sounds of detonations which should be clearly audible, not ambiguous, should be awesomely present, along with the echos of detonations about Manhattan?

a reply to: Gandalf77

Thanks for the explanation. I was aware that a few pieces (metal columns/girders?) were kept but as you say, most was disposed of quickly. It's all so long ago now but I vaguely remember it being shipped off (China?) and melted down again. I could be mistaken though, it was a long time ago since I read a 9/11 thread. It must be the time of year.

a reply to: LightSpeedDriver

It's been a while for me too, but I also remember it being shipped off to China and melted down.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Gandalf77

So? Can you produce collapse video of WTC 7 that has sounds of detonations which should be clearly audible, not ambiguous, should be awesomely present, along with the echos of detonations about Manhattan?

Your sound-related objections are quite reasonable. Interestingly enough, different explosives have different acoustical properties. RDX (one of the loudest explosives available), for example, would indeed render a blast around the dB levels you cite above. But Nano-Thermite's acoustical properties can apparently be tailored.

A number of the objections you raise are covered in this video:

www.ae911truth.org... -sound-evidence-for-explosions

a reply to: Gandalf77

In the month following 9/11, a significant amount of the steel debris from the WTC collapses is removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at a recycling plant or shipped out of the US. [US CONGRESS, 3/6/2002] Each of the Twin Towers contained 78,000 tons of recyclable steel. Much of this is shipped to India, China, and other Asian countries, where it will be melted down and reprocessed into new steel products. Asian companies are able to purchase the steel for just $120 per ton, compared, for example, to a usual average price of $150 per ton in China. Industry officials estimate that selling off the steel and other metals from the WTC for recycling could net a few tens of million dollars.
[...]
New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg defends the decision to quickly get rid of the WTC steel, saying, “If you want to take a look at the construction methods and the design, that’s in this day and age what computers do. Just looking at a piece of metal generally doesn’t tell you anything.” Officials in the mayor’s office decline to reply to requests by the New York Times regarding who decided to have the steel recycled.

September 12-October 2001: Steel Debris From WTC Shipped Out of US for Recycling

How... convenient.

And just looking at metal doesn't tell you anything cuz... science! Also, it has electrolytes!

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Wow. Convenient indeed! All too convenient....

a reply to: Gandalf77

To cut steel by pressure wave, a specific pressure must be created. That specific pressure is going to result in the same sound level regardless of explosive type cutting steel by pressure wave.

The point of using nano thermite is its more of an explosive than cutting charge. If the nano thermite is cutting steel by pressure wave, then that is going to result in the same loudness as any other explosive using a pressure wave to cut steel.

Thermite burns slow. With no guarantee columns would be cut at the same rate. Might result in cold welds when cutting columns vertically. Whit no means to misalign columns to insure a rapid collapse initiation.

1000 pounds of thermite couldn’t even finish cutting a SUV in half horizontal. Doubtful if it would be effective against vertical columns for a rapid onset of collapse.

MythBusters Destroy A Car Using 1000 Pounds Of Thermite

m.youtube.com...

With the flashing, the large amounts of smoke, and the heat, it would be obvious if thermite was cutting at the exterior columns near windows and the facade. Flashing in the windows. Large amounts of flame and smoke. Cutting and burning through the facade.

Thermite makes UV light.

AE truth said the fires were never hotter than normal office fires. Is that false? I would take it that rules out floor to floor column to column thermite fueled fires burning at 3000 degrees Fahrenheit.

There is zero evidence of pyrotechnics bringing down the WTC.

a reply to: LightSpeedDriver

Try following the thread. A previous post said that wireless detonators were used for the WTC, which is why no det cord/wiring was found. I questioned his belief that thousands of wireless detonators would have worked in the RF hell that Manhattan is. He said, it would not take that many charges. So I pointed out an article where a 30 story building took over 4,000 charges...meaning using his ideas would be over 4,000 wireless detonators. So, try following the thread.

a reply to: Gandalf77

This:

“Thermite burns slow. With no guarantee columns would be cut at the same rate. Might result in cold welds when cutting columns vertically. Whit no means to misalign columns to insure a rapid collapse initiation.”

Is probably why you will never see AE truth pay Hulsey to model a thermite initiated collapse. It would not agree with their collapse model where rapid collapse initiation was “magically” started by literally removing columns with no justification than it made their model look the way they wanted. And they still cannot get their collapse model to incorporate key identifiers from the actual video.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

False argument for the towers. Scrap like cars was quickly removed to make access to the actual pile. Unlike WTC 7 steel, the twin tower columns actually had identification stamps. Much of the steel went to Fresh Kills for examination, and then shipped off.

And steel was examined at the pile too.

Then there is WTC columns on display throughout the world.

That was one of the most controlled demolition of a building.

And to get such a controlled collapse from planes Is even more remarkable.

I know people who demo buildings and even will all the dynamite they have, they still at times cant bring down a large building.

And to cause such a collapse the damage would have to be done to the lower half of the building.

Hitting the top half would not cause the bottom to crumble.

a reply to: Bloodworth

And to cause such a collapse the damage would have to be done to the lower half of the building.

Except for the twin towers, all the evidence points to the collapse of each building was initiated on the fours hit by the jets. With no evidence of the collapse for each tower initiating in any other levels.

a reply to: neutronflux

Did you see the difference in the two videos? The one that shows no fire
in WTC7? And then the massive fire in that building of lesser design in Brazil?
Brazil being a country plagued by building code corruption.

Just one example

Investigators found exposed steel rods corroded by sea salt and crumbling concrete full of sea shells, evidence the builders had used seawater and sea sand to make cheap cement that violated building codes.

source

Their buildings don't even need to be on fire to fall down. lmao


You know the one that was gutted by homeless people occupying the building? lol

a reply to: carsforkids

Again....

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: carsforkids

You

Why would I do that? I have full confidence in what I said! If you want to
refute something feel free. I stand by what I said. Do you see the
difference in fires? You know one not being a fife?

Again...

So? To you? Building design has nothing to do with how a building reacts to a fire? Your saying an all steel structure with deficient fire insulation vs a building built with reinforced concrete columns are going to provide the same building performance?

Or one building with less support columns is not more susceptible to damage by thermal stress and deformation?

Placing the WTC 7 fire in prospect

www.911myths.com...

5.5.3 Fires at WTC 7
Currently, there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7, as well as about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire. It is likely that fires started as a result of debris from the collapse of WTC 1.
According to fire service personnel, fires were initially seen to be present on non-contiguous floors on the south side of WTC 7 at approximately floors 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, and 19. The presence of fire and smoke on

lower floors is also confirmed by the early television news coverage of WTC 7, which indicated light-colored
smoke rising from the lower floors of WTC 7.
Video footage indicated that the majority of the smoke appeared to be coming from the south side of the building at that time as opposed to the other sides of the building. This is corroborated by Figure 5-17, a photograph taken at 3:36 p.m. that shows the south face of WTC 7 covered with a thick cloud of smoke, and only small amounts of smoke emanating from the 27th and 28th floors of the west face of WTC 7.
News coverage after 1:30 p.m. showed light-colored smoke flowing out of openings on the upper floors of the south side of the building. Another photograph (Figure 5-18) of the skyline at 3:25 p.m., taken from the southwest, shows a large volume of dark smoke coming from all but the lowest levels of WTC 7, where white smoke is emanating. The mode of fire and smoke spread was unclear; however, it may have been propagated through interior shafts, between floors along the south façade that may have been damaged, or other internal openings, as well as the floor slab/exterior façade connections.
It appeared that water on site was limited due to a 20-inch broken water main in Vesey Street. Although WTC 7 was sprinklered, it did not appear that there would have been a sufficient quantity of water to control the growth and spread of the fires on multiple floors. In addition, the firefighters made the decision fairly early on not to attempt to fight the fires, due in part to the damage to WTC 7 from the collapsing towers. Hence, the fire progressed throughout the day fairly unimpeded by automatic or manual suppression activities.
A review of photos and videos indicates that there were limited fires on the north, east, and west faces of the building. One eyewitness who saw the building from a 30th floor apartment approximately 4 blocks away to the northwest noted that fires in the building were not visible from that perspective. On some of the lower floors, where the firefighters saw fires for extended periods of time from the south side, there appeared to be walls running in an east to west direction, at least on floors 5 and 6, that would have compartmentalized the north side from the south side. There were also air plenums along the east and west walls and partially along the north walls of these floors instead of windows that may have further limited fires from extending out of these floors and, therefore, were not visible from sides other than the south.
As the day progressed, fires were observed on the east face of the 11th, 12th, and 28th floors (see Figure 5-19). The Securities and Exchange Commission occupied floors 11 through 13. Prior to collapse, fire was seen to have broken out windows on at least the north and east faces of WTC 7 on some of the lower levels.
On the north face, photographs and videos show that the fires were located on approximately the 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th, and 13th floors. American Express Bank International occupied the 7th and 8th floors. The 7th floor also held the OEM generators and day tank. Photographs of the west face show fire and smoke on the 29th and 30th floors.

a reply to: neutronflux

So? To you? Building design has nothing to do with how a building reacts to a fire? Your saying an all steel structure with deficient fire insulation vs a building built with reinforced concrete columns are going to provide the same building performance?

Nope! Guess again you can only get closer now!

I know how you are with questions but I'll ask just to see what happens.

The pic of building 7 above that large quote you posted. Shows some flames
jetting up thru the curtain wall.

Do they look suspicious to you in any way?

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: neutronflux

So? To you? Building design has nothing to do with how a building reacts to a fire? Your saying an all steel structure with deficient fire insulation vs a building built with reinforced concrete columns are going to provide the same building performance?

Nope! Guess again you can only get closer now!

I know how you are with questions but I'll ask just to see what happens.

The pic of building 7 above that large quote you posted. Shows some flames
jetting up thru the curtain wall.

Do they look suspicious to you in any way?

It looks like a building fire to me not fueled by thermite, and shows no proof of explosives.

How about you stop playing the innuendo game. Actually cite and state facts. Actually quantify something, and stop making emotional pleas. And actually address what is asked of you before you make demands of others based on pseudo authority.

Again...

So? To you? Building design has nothing to do with how a building reacts to a fire? Your saying an all steel structure with deficient fire insulation vs a building built with reinforced concrete columns are going to provide the same building performance?

Or one building with less support columns is not more susceptible to damage by thermal stress and deformation?

Can you cite or prove in anyway the below is a false assessment of the fires at WTC 7


Placing the WTC 7 fire in prospect

www.911myths.com...

5.5.3 Fires at WTC 7
Currently, there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7, as well as about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire. It is likely that fires started as a result of debris from the collapse of WTC 1.
According to fire service personnel, fires were initially seen to be present on non-contiguous floors on the south side of WTC 7 at approximately floors 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, and 19. The presence of fire and smoke on

lower floors is also confirmed by the early television news coverage of WTC 7, which indicated light-colored
smoke rising from the lower floors of WTC 7.
Video footage indicated that the majority of the smoke appeared to be coming from the south side of the building at that time as opposed to the other sides of the building. This is corroborated by Figure 5-17, a photograph taken at 3:36 p.m. that shows the south face of WTC 7 covered with a thick cloud of smoke, and only small amounts of smoke emanating from the 27th and 28th floors of the west face of WTC 7.
News coverage after 1:30 p.m. showed light-colored smoke flowing out of openings on the upper floors of the south side of the building. Another photograph (Figure 5-18) of the skyline at 3:25 p.m., taken from the southwest, shows a large volume of dark smoke coming from all but the lowest levels of WTC 7, where white smoke is emanating. The mode of fire and smoke spread was unclear; however, it may have been propagated through interior shafts, between floors along the south façade that may have been damaged, or other internal openings, as well as the floor slab/exterior façade connections.
It appeared that water on site was limited due to a 20-inch broken water main in Vesey Street. Although WTC 7 was sprinklered, it did not appear that there would have been a sufficient quantity of water to control the growth and spread of the fires on multiple floors. In addition, the firefighters made the decision fairly early on not to attempt to fight the fires, due in part to the damage to WTC 7 from the collapsing towers. Hence, the fire progressed throughout the day fairly unimpeded by automatic or manual suppression activities.
A review of photos and videos indicates that there were limited fires on the north, east, and west faces of the building. One eyewitness who saw the building from a 30th floor apartment approximately 4 blocks away to the northwest noted that fires in the building were not visible from that perspective. On some of the lower floors, where the firefighters saw fires for extended periods of time from the south side, there appeared to be walls running in an east to west direction, at least on floors 5 and 6, that would have compartmentalized the north side from the south side. There were also air plenums along the east and west walls and partially along the north walls of these floors instead of windows that may have further limited fires from extending out of these floors and, therefore, were not visible from sides other than the south.
As the day progressed, fires were observed on the east face of the 11th, 12th, and 28th floors (see Figure 5-19). The Securities and Exchange Commission occupied floors 11 through 13. Prior to collapse, fire was seen to have broken out windows on at least the north and east faces of WTC 7 on some of the lower levels.
On the north face, photographs and videos show that the fires were located on approximately the 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th, and 13th floors. American Express Bank International occupied the 7th and 8th floors. The 7th floor also held the OEM generators and day tank. Photographs of the west face show fire and smoke on the 29th and 30th floors.

a reply to: carsforkids

The truth movement even said the fires at WTC 7 were not hotter than normal office fires. Is that false?


What do you not get that air was being drawn in on this side of WTC 7



To fueled fires like this



Where this side of WTC 7



Would have looked more like this if it was nighttime