If faith was blind belief, why would it be of such importance?

Your faith has saved you is something Jesus said a few time before.

Perhaps we should discuss what exactly is meant with blind belief. Tell me, what is it that is thought of people who claim to believe in God and
what is it about my faith you don't like? Can't you just treat people with respect or is your love conditional?

I don't have much with "you have blind belief" and "there is no god" and other straw man arguments.

Where does this evil come from?

Surely faith means something in the Bible and it can have sizes.

Usually when these straw man arguments I mentioned are uttered the conversation is over.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

what is it about my faith you don't like?

This is an intriguing question, isn't it?
No one gets all up-in-arms if you believe aliens likely inhabit distant planets, or that ESP exists, or say a ghost hovered over your bed last night. Those all constitute the 'belief in things unseen' as well. But mention faith in God and suddenly you're a gullible, naive, ignorant, sorry-excuse-for-a-human. It's like a visceral reaction. It's almost like they're afraid you're right!

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Faith is what they tell you you need when they want you to believe something that makes no sense and cannot be demonstrated. Or can otherwise be demonstrated to be wrong.

There is no other reason to use faith as an argument for the existence of anything.

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

what is it about my faith you don't like?

This is an intriguing question, isn't it?
No one gets all up-in-arms if you believe aliens likely inhabit distant planets, or that ESP exists, or say a ghost hovered over your bed last night. Those all constitute the 'belief in things unseen' as well. But mention faith in God and suddenly you're a gullible, naive, ignorant, sorry-excuse-for-a-human. It's like a visceral reaction. It's almost like they're afraid you're right!

As far as aliens living somewhere in the universe being likely, that is not a faith statement. That is a statement about probability. And even though we don’t know, aliens existing doesn’t break any of the physical laws or go against anything we already understand about physics or the universe. So if you word that a little different like “ i’m positive that aliens are out there.” Then that would be a faith statement. And lot’s of people would agree. Even myself. But when pushed about it, the reasonable statement would be more like. “It is likely, or probable that aliens exist somewhere in the vastness of the universe. “

As far as esp, that is something that has been studied and tested ad nauseam. and has been shown to be unsupported by any demonstration, and there have been lots. If someone claimed to have that power then they would need to demonstrate it. I wouldn’t believe them without proof. Even though lots of people claim to have that power, it never holds up under any scrutiny, so for those who do believe in it, they would need to employ faith to justify their belief.

Ghosts are the same. People want ghosts to be real. But they have never been demonstrated even after countless years of trying. If someone says they saw a ghost, i wouldn’t believe them. I would probably think they had a mental deficiency of some sort. Naivety at least

a reply to: new_here

A big difference is that belief in aliens, or esp is not an inherrent danger to others, while religion is responsibe for countless millions of death, and immeasurable suffering.

While i realize "faith" and religion are not the same thing, they are inseparable.

Would most ppl have faith, without indoctrination?

Now that, to me, is a very interesting question.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

I don’t like it when people rely on faith to justify their beliefs because faith is not a way to get accurate information. Literally anything can be justified by faith, and therefor it cannot be relied on to predict anything with accuracy.

All religions rely on faith. So by your own standard, all religions and all god claims have the same merit. They are all just as likely by your standard. That and every other faith based claim. Even the ones that contradict each other. And we know that is an unreasonable standard.

I prefer to rely on testable and demonstrable claims to base my beliefs on. Claims that i can show and prove to be dependable, and reproduceable.

If you can show me that i have a belief that i cannot demonstrate plausibly, i will happily change my mind.

a reply to: Mach2

While i realize "faith" and religion are not the same thing, they are inseparable.

To you, perhaps. To many others as well. And horrid things have been done in the name of religion, yes.
But faith in God is a stand-alone concept. No 'religion' required. You could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It. Religion is man's bastardization of faith, as a means of controlling the masses. Jesus didn't come to start Christianity. At all.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I agree. When people get an illness like cancer they should have no faith they can beat the odds.

originally posted by: new_hereYou could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It.

That is religion.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

I agree. When people get an illness like cancer they should have no faith they can beat the odds.

You mean hope and wishing? They will do you no good. It’s best to put in some work and study to find the best doctor. You don’t want your oncologist to rely on thoughts and prayers. You want him to study the human body and get enough experience so that every step he takes is calculated. That is the opposite of faith.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: new_hereYou could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It.

That is religion.

Meh, I subscribe to a different definition of the term religion then. When faith is a shared system of change and control among a group of people, I consider it a religion. When faith involves my personal connection with God to guide my heart and mind towards selfless, loving ways to make the world a better place, I don't count that as a religion. I'm seriously with you on the 'religion bad' thing, by my definition of religion. But let's don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Mach2

While i realize "faith" and religion are not the same thing, they are inseparable.

To you, perhaps. To many others as well. And horrid things have been done in the name of religion, yes.
But faith in God is a stand-alone concept. No 'religion' required. You could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It. Religion is man's bastardization of faith, as a means of controlling the masses. Jesus didn't come to start Christianity. At all.

You are still relying on faith that you are not just talking to yourself. And as soon as someone else shows up, they will disagree on some point of your claim.

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Mach2

While i realize "faith" and religion are not the same thing, they are inseparable.

You could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It.

What leads you to believe this?

You do have isolated "tribes" that have these faith based beliefs, but indoctrination has still taken place.

In most cases, religious beliefs, and thier foundations were originally formed to explain the (at the time) unexplainable. IOW they made things up, because they didn't have the understanding of modern science.

Earth being the center of the universe is a good example of something that was once thought to be an indisputed, and inarguable truth because god created the universe that way. We now know differently.

What im talking about is if an individual had a modern education in science, and the physical world, witg zero religious indoctrination, would he make that "leap of faith"?

I'm not sure he would. Its possible that some would, and some wouldn't.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You don’t want your oncologist to rely on thoughts and prayers.

Well.... here's an interesting thing, and I'll have to go search to back up my statement after I take the Viszla out, but prayer has actually been studied and the results were quite unexpected. There was actually an episode of The West Wing that touched on it.

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: new_hereYou could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It.

That is religion.

Meh, I subscribe to a different definition of the term religion then. When faith is a shared system of change and control among a group of people, I consider it a religion. When faith involves my personal connection with God to guide my heart and mind towards selfless, loving ways to make the world a better place, I don't count that as a religion. I'm seriously with you on the 'religion bad' thing, by my definition of religion. But let's don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!

So you disagreed with enough religious claims that you have decided to start your own. One that nobody can disagree with because it is only you. That takes a lot of faith.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

All in all, people should be free to do whatever it is they want to do.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Mach2

While i realize "faith" and religion are not the same thing, they are inseparable.

To you, perhaps. To many others as well. And horrid things have been done in the name of religion, yes.
But faith in God is a stand-alone concept. No 'religion' required. You could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It. Religion is man's bastardization of faith, as a means of controlling the masses. Jesus didn't come to start Christianity. At all.

You are still relying on faith that you are not just talking to yourself. And as soon as someone else shows up, they will disagree on some point of your claim.

If I am just talking to myself... who is this wise Self who advises me? How do YOU know that what you call your Conscience is not the Holy Spirit. Does the name really matter that much, if the result is the same? Why reject the concept of a Higher Consciousness in the universe so vehemently? Is it fear? I'm asking seriously, not combatively.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Faith is what they tell you you need when they want you to believe something that makes no sense and cannot be demonstrated. Or can otherwise be demonstrated to be wrong.

There is no other reason to use faith as an argument for the existence of anything.

No, faith is the certainty of the existence of God.

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Woodcarver

You don’t want your oncologist to rely on thoughts and prayers.

Well.... here's an interesting thing, and I'll have to go search to back up my statement after I take the Viszla out, but prayer has actually been studied and the results were quite unexpected. There was actually an episode of The West Wing that touched on it.

West wing? The tv show?

Can you direct us to the actual studies?

Because there have been quite a few, and none of them claimed that prayer was useful.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Here is a wiki that lists at least 9 scientific studies on intercessory prayer. You can use it as a jumping point to study the actual information at your liesure. Spoilers. Prayer doesn’t work.

a reply to: new_here

Well if it was on a TV show, I guess that settles it...... Lol