An End To The Moon Conspiracy!

Originally posted by goleminaMethinks thou doest protest too much!

Nice try IA!

,hmm , hypocrisy noted – earlier you complained when no one answered you – now you complain that I do , you want to “ have your cake and eat it “So much for logic .

Would it be terribly rude of me to point out that the 'applications' for the observatory (you are 'rolling' out to great fanfare in your head?

) are signups for telescope time.

If you actually read up how the system operates , you would have realised that the laser is fired up the telescope , and the telescope also receives the return signal .How do you expect to operate the laser , if the telescope is tasked to another assignment ?????? You need to have control of the 3.5m scope to operate the laser – if you had read any of the tech specs provided in previous links , you would have realised that .

So the question is – are you intentionally dishonest , or totally clueless ??? Here : Apollo_operations_overview

The telescope used for APOLLO has a 3.5 meter diameter mirror, and is located at the Apache Point Observatory in southern New Mexico. We use the telescope as a gigantic (3.5 meter wide) laser pointer and also as a signal receiver

Get it yet – you have to sign up for telescope time

Cheep points Cheap points? Please what is it per post a staggering 1 or 2 points?Do I really need to say anything...

At 283x points, I must be a points juggernaut.

More waffle noted . and you accuse me of inane verbosity

It's always nice to deal with just the facts...

If only you would , if only you would

Your 'results' page only yielded access error(s)... Must be the hours that I keep.

I guess I will try it again later.

I see claims by you for results... but no results.

They work for me –

All you are sharing with us is claims of results....

SHOW ME those results.

Again your mask of “ logic “ has slipped If you want to see results first hand , the burden is upon you to go IN PERSON and attempt to observe them As you claim that printed or electronic reports are “ only claimed “ results you have actually shouldered the burden of proof , as only you can determine validity by first person observation [ in your mind ] Why are you so reluctant to do this – all info you required has been furnished REPEATEDLY – YOU ARE SIMPLY STALLING It is time to take action yourself – or stop whining .

The world is a rather large place. There is an absolutely unending for an inquiring mind to spend countless lifetimes interacting with the true incredible nature of the little blue ball we all live on...

Some of my friends and I were engaged in a topic that touchs on this very notion... What would Da Vinci do with his time in this day and age?

Meaningless waffle , which translates to “ you cannot be bothered “
...

It really doesn't bother me that you pretend to be an insider to the observatory that houses the range finding equipment...

Please do not lie , to expose your latest dishonesty – I will have to quote myself

I cannot , because i do not work at an observatory – but you know this – and are simply trolling for cheep points

As you managed to quote half of that sentence , it beggars belief how you could misconstrue the first half of it

Whose existence in a true 'work a day' has yet to be established/validated.

Hmm , now you doubt the existence of the entire conservatory , no matter

apache point directions

Just incase you claim that web page does not exist , Here are directions :

Located in the Sacramento Mountains in the Lincoln National Forest, APO is 18 miles south of Cloudcroft, NM.
From El Paso, TX take highway 54 north to highway 82 in Alamogordo. From Las Cruces, take highway 70/82 east to Alamogordo. There, take highway 82 east to Cloudcroft. In Cloudcroft, turn right onto highway 130 and follow 130 to highway 6563 (toward Sunspot). Turn right onto 6563. After approximately 16 miles, turn left at the marked spur just before the entrance to the National Solar Observatory.

And the postal address :

Apache Point Observatory
P.O. Box 59
Sunspot, NM 88349-0059

Now as you previously claimed you had the means to travel to Hawaii , then a trip to new Mexico will be within your capabilities Use a little of the logic you claim to possess – the burden is on you – if you are not trolling as I suspect you are – get of your idle backside and go do something .

I understand that based on the results you are sharing with us my requests for 'name, location, director, budget' of the range finding facilities apparently exceed your abilities...

NO , I have given you the name , if you had the logical approach you claim – then determination of the location and director would be easy – its all there in the apache point web pages – they have been linked too often enough .

But lets just humour you – so you can dig yourself in deeper

Name – apache point observatory
Location- Cloudcroft, NM [ directions and postal address given above ]
Director - Dr. Kurt S. Anderson

His email is : [email protected]

And the observatory can be contacted on : Telephone 505-437-6822

I addressed the budget issue – and why your request for it was a silly red herring earlier

But , to cut off your “ wiggle room “ , the operations and maintenance budget for the 3.5m scope [ the one in question ] is $1.2 million / annum

As the other facilities @ apache point , are used , operated and funded by a variety of faculties , and government agencies – the overall budget is hard to gauge , but again what is the relevance of the budget ???

Another question you dodged . More reading , less waffling – and you will discover that you were given answers – you simply ignored them

Let's cut that list back to how about just of the NAME of the 'device'.

You have not been reading have you , the name you are now demanding has been staring you in the face all along Do I need to spell it out :

APOLLO (the Apache Point Observatory Lunar Laser-ranging Operation)

HOW DID YOU MISS IT ?? Btw , here are pictures :

pictures of the Apollo apparatus

But of course , you will dismiss them as “ claimed “ pictures

Which again transfers the burden to you – if you want to see it for yourself – it is time for you to do something . Otherwise you are simply trolling – and despite any claims of logic – you are attempting to evade actually acknowledging any answer

Ps – now you have claimed a second time – that the results page I posted was “only claimed results “ and the “ real “ data and its validity could only be confirmed by you .

Pray tell how do you intend to do this – or are you willing to admit you are trolling ?

You claimed this link :apache results was only “ claimed results “ So how do you intent to validate or falsify them ??

You ignored my earlier question on “ how you know the island of rockall exists “

Did WWI really occur ? assuming you did not experience it first hand – you only have “ claimed photos” , claimed documents and claimed witness accounts In your little world – did wwi actually occur ???

PPS – you still have not answered SHP , why ?

[edit on 1-10-2006 by ignorant_ape]

That's a Great Post, IA !

That answered all my questions. Thank You.

I really like the drift in your story...



Thanks for FINALLY providing something approaching useful information.

The story line behind the so called laser mirror arrays gets curiouser and curiouser...

To hear the drift in 'your story' is quite amusing... to say the least.

To go from this quote of yours...

'Thousands of rangings have been made – and scrutinized by experts – their validity assured – they have been published – and the data correlated to show that the moon is receding from the earth at a different rate to that previously thought'

and the attempted implication by the NASA true believers that this 'system' has been IN PLACE SINCE THE APOLLO 11 landings (just a few years ago )

to the story line from your most recent 'web site' submission...

'we have constructed the apparatus and established initial operation (July 2005). In the fall of 2005, we acquired our first lunar ranges with the system...'

Well, quite frankly, it just makes an honest observer (that would be me, of course ), just go...

Hmmm.....

And to top that off, your highly technical description of how the 'system' supposedly 'works'...

'If you actually read up how the system operates , you would have realised that the laser is fired up the telescope , and the telescope also receives the return signal'



I'm sorry... I REALLY shouldn't laugh!

And... (how can there POSSIBLY be more golem? )...

to look at the amateur hour 'results' page, with of course the 'graphic' of photons hits (looks curiously reminiscent of a much older 'data' plot )

And... (STILL more? That would sadly be a yeah )...

'action' photos of the entire process, including the ranging 'team'... (totally awesome... those photos are hardly enhanced at all! )

And... (lastly)

'best run: 677 photons in 5000-shot (4 minute) run'

IA, brother, do you even come close understanding the thinness of this 'result'... ESPECIALLY IN FULL MOON conditions?



quite frankly boils down to just ONE WORD...

Thanks.

'We' will mull over your 'results' and get back to you.

First impression... straight up... man to man... looks like total BS.

Just as a sidenote, the derision you seem so intent on heaping on a poor fellow ATSer asking for some verification as to your grandiose claims... comes off as unfortunate at best.

But I can really understand the need to draw the focus of the discussion elsewhere when all you basically have is a 677 photons best result.

(golem just shakes his head and... of course! )

golemina wins by TKO!

All has been said, nothing to add. One day, it will be the best documentary (or movie) - about one of the greatest myths ever created. Pulled of with very primitive technology, and (rightfully so) counting on ignorance of the human kind.

I do not have the expertise of golemina, but I know enough...to know.

It has been a pleasure, gentlemen.

well golemini is not a scientist so his read of the data is meaningless.


swimmer saying this proves anything is lost on me.

I agree with Bodebliss. Swimmer, that's not even close to a TKO. More like a swing in the dark that doesn't connect. But I digress. Next please?

Hm, you two are just getting up from the floor after the TKO

You are thoroughly beaten...you either do not want to admit, or you do not even understand it. It doesn't really matter. Nobody really wins. This story is too big for a simple debate...it is enourmous, and at the same time so simple.

What matters is that the "Moon Landing" fable can now be put on the shelf with other fairy tales, where it belongs.

There were many good people who believed in communism. They really did, and they were really good people. They learned the truth. You will too.

Where is your evidence it is false or are you such an expert just your word is good enough.

Go back to school, child. You still have much to learn.

Originally posted by swimmer
Hm, you two are just getting up from the floor after the TKO

I cannot speak for the others , but I am getting up from the ground – because I fell out of my chair in a fit of giggles at your

Was it this “ knockout punch “ which convinced you ???

Originally posted by GoleminaFirst impression... straight up... man to man... looks like total BS.

That was the apogee of his “ arguments “ – his posts were generally devoid of any technical merit – and relied increasingly on smileys , in lieu of any meritous argument , technical understanding or logic

He ignored or belittled every piece of evidence presented to him – with no logical rebuttals

I will quote an example :

Originally posted by Golemina I see claims by you for results... but no results

This was one reply to my posting this page

physics.ucsd.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">apache results

2days later he chose to belittle the result instead , a radical volte face .

Originally posted by Golemina But I can really understand the need to draw the focus of the discussion elsewhere when all you basically have is a 677 photons best result.

Also he demanded I tell him what the apache point equipment was called

Originally posted by Golemina Let's cut that list back to how about just of the NAME of the 'device'. ……………..Don't you think laser 'range finding' equipment... IF indeed in service... would have a 'name'... Just like all working observatory telescopes?

If he had actually read the pages I posted – he would have realised , or should have that the name was given , was he unable or unwilling to look or comprehend , who knows ?

And you think he won …… that conclusion says more about you than anything .

You are thoroughly beaten...you either do not want to admit, or you do not even understand it.

So please point out where we were “ beaten “ ??? your delusions aside , please point to any evidence of this ??

I can point out where golemina flat out lied , ignored evidence presented [ then pretended that the same evidence was newly presented 8 days later – despite the fact I had posted I 3 times previously ] , demanded actions from others that only he could actually accomplish [ his show me charade – he was given clear and ample instruction and contact details – so that he could have attempted to arrange a visit – if he had honestly intended to do so ]

It doesn't really matter. Nobody really wins.

So why are you here ??

This story is too big for a simple debate...it is enourmous, and at the same time so simple.

Utter balderdash , the fact that you blatantly contradict yourself aside .

For instance it is possible to discuss the merits of the Apollo photographs , taken on the moon – wholly separately from any other element ,

As indeed we are attempting to discuss the lunar laser reflector and the APOLLO scientific program

But it seems golemina has unfurled the white flag of victory and run away

I am still awaiting the claimed results from his “ teams “ analysis of the apache point data

It has been over a week , and not a pip

What matters is that the "Moon Landing" fable can now be put on the shelf with other fairy tales, where it belongs.

Only in your mind , if this delusion makes you happy then I guess you must be inwardly content , but I secretly doubt you are fit to be left unsupervised .

There were many good people who believed in communism. They really did, and they were really good people. They learned the truth. You will too.

A non sequitor communism was an ideology – it always had the potential to work – its failures are not of the communism ideology , rather its subversion by those attempting to implement it

The Apollo missions were a series of events , they were recorded and documented at every step of the way , by both NASA and 3rd parties . including the soviet union

Belief , or your apparent disbelief has no bearing on their occurrence or validity

To be blunt , reality is unaware of your beliefs and does not take any account of them .

The Apollo moon landings happened .

Your claims they did not simply make you look foolish in public .

Get over it .

You waste your time discussing with the NASA dogmatists.

My last post went unanswered for a good many days... for a number of reasons...

What do you think it might have been Swimmer?

Maybe it just has something to do with the number 677?



Thank you for the good chuckle IA... Truly some marvelous leaps in your 'logic' 'proving' that the 'Apollo missions' happened exactly as advertised.

I'm sorry... Nothing personal IA, but I'm demoting you to the same rank as BodeBliss.



If at some point you say something that cracks the threshold of meriting a response (or even better something that might lead us to believe you have EVEN THE FAINTEST IDEA of what you are talking about... )...

I'll gladly respond. Till then...

You take care.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by golemina]

golemina : the reason your last post went unanswered , was because you wrote :

'We' will mull over your 'results' and get back to you.

you never did ,

Originally posted by goleminaIf at some point you say something that cracks the threshold of meriting a response (or even better something that might lead us to believe you have EVEN THE FAINTEST IDEA of what you are talking about...

)...

I'll gladly respond. Till then...

as predicted , golemina has indeed unfurled the white flag of victory and run away

golemia , you never did demonstrate that anything i told you was incorrect .

you just waffled and the appogee of your agruments was " its BS" WAS THAT IT ?

and you claimed that others had no idea what they were talking about

ROFLMAO

ps - talking of not having a clue -- have you figured out why when you made your " show me " demand - i gave you the Apache point telescope booking link ??

did you fill it in ???? have you made any efforts to investigate personally as you claimed you were prepated to ??

or were you just trolling , and stalling -- in the hope that people would loose patience .

but enough of that , here is a challenge --

A challenge

A Formal debate on the issue of the Apollo manned moon mission .

I for one am sick of evasive little trolls like golemina with his “ its bs “ quips , and zero arguments of any merit .

So – an open challenge to Golemina , swimmer or any one else

To debate an Apollo topic :

As golemia is so enamoured with the apache point lunar laser ranging operation – a debate on its validity might be to his taste

I will of course argue the yes position .

If that topic does not appeal – I will debate any reasonable challenge addressing any aspect of the Apollo program

I have been in tough with moderator nygdan – and if a debate opponent steps forward – I’ve sends nygdan a U2U with a topic we both agree too – he will open a forum slot , and supervise the conduct of the debate – and arrange a judge from the moderators / FSMEs

So there you are – time to step up to the plate

If you think you have such a strong case against Apollo – set it out rationally – instead of silly “ show me “ fantasies . which you showed no inclination to follow through on .

Accept the challenge , I cannot wait .

It's funny how the 'Apollo Hoax' camp goes quiet when confronted with the possibility of a formal debate. I wonder why that is...

Most junior highschools don't offer debate class?

How can you form a formal argument when you can barely form a complete sentence?

Debate requires higher brain function?

It took them weeks to type up their posts. Just give them some more time.

Pleaze... The ABSURDITY of your NASA religion has been explosed...



The facts are laying bare in front of you.

677 of them.

What's truly amusing is that apparently none of the/you TRUE BELIEVERS get the TOTALITY of the defeat that has been handed to you.



You boys have a nice day.

Originally posted by golemina
Pleaze... The ABSURDITY of your NASA religion has been explosed...

The facts are laying bare in front of you.

677 of them.

What's truly amusing is that apparently none of the/you TRUE BELIEVERS get the TOTALITY of the defeat that has been handed to you.

You boys have a nice day.

I beg your pardon?
You have rehashed old arguments, gone back on yourself, looped the loop logically speaking and proved yourselve unable to carry out a measured, reasoned debate. Instead you often resort to name calling and what appears to be petulant jibes. Faced with reason you deploy illogic and faced with facts you have answered with the same tired old arguments you have brought up before.
I hate to do my Tarkin impression, but I grow tired of repeating myself. The moon landings happened. There is a substantial amount of proof that they happened. All attempts at refuting that evidence has failed. Deal with it.

Originally posted by golemina
Debate?

Yes , a debate are you unfamiliar with the concept of written debates ?

Pleaze... The ABSURDITY of your NASA religion has been explosed...

Ok , by the numbers :

As you have presented no evidence that a “ NASA religion “ even exists , you have already begged the question , as you have produced not one shred of evidence that a “ NASA religion “ exists

As a side note – I would be interested to hear your “ arguments “ for the existence of this “ NASA RELIGION “ what are its doctrines , articles of faith etc etc .

Secondly you have presented no arguments containing any technical merit to expose the “ NASA position “ as absurd . none , such dismissals as :

First impression... straight up... man to man... looks like total BS.

OR :

to look at the amateur hour 'results' page, with of course the 'graphic' of photons hits

Were the true absurdities .

PS – an important point to interject here is the fact that the Apache point observatory is NOT a NASA facility , nor is the APOLLO [ apace point observatory lunar laser operations ] program

Lastly demerits are awarded for spelling mistakes in written debates .

So I am beginning to understand the reasons why you are so leery of a formal written debate .

The facts are laying bare in front of you.

………677 of them.

Yes , the APPOLLO results plots . You didn’t actually address them with any counter argument worthy of merit .

On October 2nd you attempted to poison the well with this quip :

to look at the amateur hour 'results' page,

Without actually addressing how or why the results presented should be legitimately questioned .

A question – the laser beam used in the APOLLO experiments has a beam width of 3.5m when it leaves the telescope at Apache point , dependant of atmospheric conditions its footprint when it strikes the moon is 2km + , the various laser reflectors have a fixed size – thus creating a return beam corresponding to the size of the reflector elements .

The reflected photons will cover a footprint of < cue Golemina > what size ? when it strikes the earths surface ??

Go on – answer that – stun us with your answer .

As the counted photons must strike the 3.5m telescope , then how many should < IYHO > be counted ?

Again – this is your chance to actually address the issue – try it .

Also , your claim that 677 photons was the “ best result “ was patently false – The return of 677 photons was the best result from October 2005 , this was the first run of a new system , its ` shakedown cruise `

Later experiments produced far better results , such as , in December 2005 :

• peak rate > 0.6 photons per pulse
• best run: 2150 photons in 12.5 minutes

This is clearly superior to Octobers :

• peak rate: 0.3 photons per pulse
• best run: 677 photons in 5000-shot (4 minute) run

As these results are on the same page – your claim that 677 was a “ best result “ was at worst dishonesty , at best a strawman

What's truly amusing is that apparently none of the/you TRUE BELIEVERS get the TOTALITY of the defeat that has been handed to you.

Au contraire , what is truly amusing is your continued delusion that you “ won “ merely by repeating the mantra ` golemina is the winner ` it may have impressed ATS member swimmer , but no one else

The pinnacle of your argument was you now infamous “ it is BS “ quip

You have presented no compelling technical arguments , in fact you have presented no technical arguments full stop .

And now , what ? Why do you not just accept the debate and be done with it ?

You boys have a nice day.

I am , thank you .

However my day would be even better if someone accepted my debate challenge .



[edit on 18-10-2006 by ignorant_ape]

Hearing DarkMinds quixotesque 'claims' or is it recounting of the recent discussions dealing with the Apollo 'mirror arrays' have such a total disconnect from what actually has occurred...

Made me think we had possibly maybe found the long lost descendants of the strategists who claimed the 'undefeatability' of the Austro-Hungarian Empire...



Or at the very least found the first acknowledged occurrence of the most secretive and conspirational of meme viruses...

The dreaded (gulp)... babble-a-tron virus!



As you can see from DarkMinds efforts of most sincere offerings... How devastating this particular meme virus is...

"I know how vile the babble-a-tron virus is. It infects computers and humans alike. Its effects are most hideous. You think you are having and communicating brilliant thoughts, but to anybody else it sounds like mindless gibberish!!! "

(Long story... I CAN share the details if anyone so wants (hence... An OK from the moderators to expand this side trip in this fantasy which is the NASA religion... Hence, the 'indulgence' part of the moderators )

Due to the seemingly lynch mob mentality of the NASA true believers... And due to their apparently exceedingly short attention/retention span...

I would once again underline my 'role' in this entire affair...

As that of an INTERLOCUTOR of the truth.

Kind of sad, that due to tendencies of partisan antics from the 'pros' NASA, that the first thing to get jettisoned from these 'discussions' is the INTELLECTUAL RIGOR, not to mention technical understanding of the significance of the supposed 'range finding' data/findings.

I understand that it's a 98/2 world (and in this case the 'pros' represent yet a further 98/2 'offering')...

But PLEASE!...

Could you guys dig out SOMEONE who can uphold the standard of the TRUE BELIEVERS... that at least has some kind of RUDIMENTARY understanding of what is 'supposed' to be actually being discussed...

in this 'mirrors array' sidetrip?

Originally posted by golemina
(Long story... I CAN share the details if anyone so wants (hence... An OK from the moderators to expand this side trip in this fantasy which is the NASA religion... Hence, the 'indulgence' part of the moderators

)

By all means, golemina, please do.

However, I would ask that you check the sarcastically dismissive approach at the door prior to moving forward.

Thank you.

>However, I would ask that you check the sarcastically dismissive approach at the door prior to moving forward.

Well, unfortunately though PD funny!!! the balance of the full text (from which the 'babble-a-tron' quote is drawn)... goes way past 'sarcasm' all the way into a full-blown satira (a la Voltaire)...

In dealing with our little empasse in it's portrayal of 'those' who would lecture us on what seems to pass for cognizance... or even 'data'...

So I guess golem will follow the advice of the Byrd (and 12m8keall2c )...

and keep it golden.

Thanks.