What is a worse investment, universal healthcare or universal retirement?

So many people here in the US would rather die than adopt a Universal Healthcare system for all citizens. There reasoning is usually that it is a scam and they don't want others getting a free ride and they don't want longer waits at the ER and Doctor.

I am a firm believer that social security is the true fraud on the American people. At least with universal healthcare, I would get to use it all throughout my life (when needed) and I could get things wrong with me treated and not have to go 50k+ in debt because my appendix decided to burst (just an example).

With social security, I won't even see the benefit until I am 62. 65 for maximum benefit (If it even lasts that long) and then I start collecting my checks. Checks that are a complete joke if you compare them to investing in a 401k and bonds etc.....

Currently, my Social security is look like 3500+/mo when I retire. If my 401k holds up which historically it always does im looking at 15K+/mo in retirement. Tax free from Roth investments

Doing the math currently social security is actually a terrible investment. If you took the same money you put into SS and invested it yourself you would be a millionaire with compounded interest in 2/3 the time. Instead, your forced into a program that will pay you out less than you put in for the possible 10 years you have left on earth.

The average age of Americans before they die is 78. So if I retire at 65 (for my full benefit) I might get 13 years of retirement before I die. THAT IS CRAZY CONSIDERING I HAVE BEEN PAYING INTO IT FOR 50+ YEARS. (I got my first real job at 14) (real job meaning the Gov gets their cut)

I have been looking meticulously for precedent for opting out of Social Security. Only if you are a priest or make way more than the average bear can you opt out. Seriously there has to be a way that someone can challenge the validity of this program and assert that "We the People" can opt out of social security.

I mean if I can prove in court that I am being defrauded with social security and that there are better options for my retirement without government assistance than I should be able to get an order opting me out right?

What does ATS think?

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
So many people here in the US would rather die than adopt a Universal Healthcare system for all citizens. There reasoning is usually that it is a scam and they don't want others getting a free ride and they don't want longer waits at the ER and Doctor.

I am a firm believer that social security is the true fraud on the American people. At least with universal healthcare, I would get to use it all throughout my life (when needed) and I could get things wrong with me treated and not have to go 50k+ in debt because my appendix decided to burst (just an example).

With social security, I won't even see the benefit until I am 62. 65 for maximum benefit (If it even lasts that long) and then I start collecting my checks. Checks that are a complete joke if you compare them to investing in a 401k and bonds etc.....

Currently, my Social security is look like 3500+/mo when I retire. If my 401k holds up which historically it always does im looking at 15K+/mo in retirement. Tax free from Roth investments

Doing the math currently social security is actually a terrible investment. If you took the same money you put into SS and invested it yourself you would be a millionaire with compounded interest in 2/3 the time. Instead, your forced into a program that will pay you out less than you put in for the possible 10 years you have left on earth.

The average age of Americans before they die is 78. So if I retire at 65 (for my full benefit) I might get 13 years of retirement before I die. THAT IS CRAZY CONSIDERING I HAVE BEEN PAYING INTO IT FOR 50+ YEARS. (I got my first real job at 14) (real job meaning the Gov gets their cut)

I have been looking meticulously for precedent for opting out of Social Security. Only if you are a priest or make way more than the average bear can you opt out. Seriously there has to be a way that someone can challenge the validity of this program and assert that "We the People" can opt out of social security.

I mean if I can prove in court that I am being defrauded with social security and that there are better options for my retirement without government assistance than I should be able to get an order opting me out right?

What does ATS think?

They both are frauds... Social security is a ponzi scheme. If anything, your facts on social security should make you extremely cautious about turning over healthcare to the government.

We already have universal healthcare on a small scale and the government can't even run it efficiently.... the Veteran's Administration.

The easiest thing to do is get government out of the way so the free market can bring the cost of insurance policies and healthcare down. Healthcare is screwed up because of government. Government can't fix it.

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
So many people here in the US would rather die than adopt a Universal Healthcare system for all citizens. There reasoning is usually that it is a scam and they don't want others getting a free ride and they don't want longer waits at the ER and Doctor.

I am a firm believer that social security is the true fraud on the American people. At least with universal healthcare, I would get to use it all throughout my life (when needed) and I could get things wrong with me treated and not have to go 50k+ in debt because my appendix decided to burst (just an example).

With social security, I won't even see the benefit until I am 62. 65 for maximum benefit (If it even lasts that long) and then I start collecting my checks. Checks that are a complete joke if you compare them to investing in a 401k and bonds etc.....

Currently, my Social security is look like 3500+/mo when I retire. If my 401k holds up which historically it always does im looking at 15K+/mo in retirement. Tax free from Roth investments

Doing the math currently social security is actually a terrible investment. If you took the same money you put into SS and invested it yourself you would be a millionaire with compounded interest in 2/3 the time. Instead, your forced into a program that will pay you out less than you put in for the possible 10 years you have left on earth.

The average age of Americans before they die is 78. So if I retire at 65 (for my full benefit) I might get 13 years of retirement before I die. THAT IS CRAZY CONSIDERING I HAVE BEEN PAYING INTO IT FOR 50+ YEARS. (I got my first real job at 14) (real job meaning the Gov gets their cut)

I have been looking meticulously for precedent for opting out of Social Security. Only if you are a priest or make way more than the average bear can you opt out. Seriously there has to be a way that someone can challenge the validity of this program and assert that "We the People" can opt out of social security.

I mean if I can prove in court that I am being defrauded with social security and that there are better options for my retirement without government assistance than I should be able to get an order opting me out right?

What does ATS think?

Social security is income redistribution. Those who contribute the least get the most and those who contribute the most, get the least.

The vast majority of people would be better off without social security IF, and I stress IF, the funds they contributed were actively invested. The problem is 90% of the population does not have the discipline to fund their own retirement. Social security is a backstop.

What government should do is change tax policy to make saving for your own retirement significantly more advantageous. Remove caps on 401k contributions. Reward people for not needing to suck on the government teet.

a reply to: Edumakated

I agree that both are frauds. But if I had to choose one I would rather it be healthcare because of the immediate benefits to me.

I agree our government can screw up boiling water but there are plenty of countries out there with great universal healthcare programs that work. Why couldn't we model ours from one of theirs or all of them?

a reply to: PraetorianAZ

You left out medicare.
That's a chunk of your social security taxes.


The problem with universal healthcare in America is basically 2 problems.

How do you pay for it?
Taxes is the solution around the world.
Good luck with that one.

And the bigger problem is the medical industry.
If you give everyone insurance "free" you will get exactly what we got with colleges.
When the government got into the college loan business the price of tuition went through the roof.

We would need to make all medical personnel government employees and set the prices for services to a reasonable level.

Good luck with that one too.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ

What government should do is change tax policy to make saving for your own retirement significantly more advantageous. Remove caps on 401k contributions. Reward people for not needing to suck on the government teet.

If there is a teet to suckle people will suckle whether they need to or not.


I agree completely with allowing me to not pay into social security if I am retiring on my own.



And for the people who don't have the discipline to plan for their own retirement. It sucks to be them. Looks like they will never retire.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: PraetorianAZ

You left out medicare.
That's a chunk of your social security taxes.


The problem with universal healthcare in America is basically 2 problems.

How do you pay for it?
Taxes is the solution around the world.
Good luck with that one.

And the bigger problem is the medical industry.
If you give everyone insurance "free" you will get exactly what we got with colleges.
When the government got into the college loan business the price of tuition went through the roof.

We would need to make all medical personnel government employees and set the prices for services to a reasonable level.

Good luck with that one too.

What we would really need to do is flip an entire industry on its head and start from scratch. There would need to be regulations on medical supplies and care. Many will lose jobs and income. But at the end of it all, we will end with something better than when we started.

The only way I would ever support universal healthcare is if there is an enforceable mandate on citizens taking at least minimal care of themselves. No smoking, limited fast food if cholesterol is within AMA guidelines, regular exercise.

Too many people break themselves through lack of taking care of themselves, then want others to foot the bill when they get chronic conditions.

Born with, I get. Self-inflicted disease...not so much.

Im the wrong person to ask LOL watched both my grandmothers, barely get enough after decades of working and being the widow of a WWII veteran. In the end both were drained because of extended healthcare issues, life savings lost, all because they were 2 sweet tough grandmothers, that didnt flinch from heart surgeries and strokes and lived into their 90's. Seeing the same happen to my mother after Dad's losing battle with pancreatic cancer, yes he had insurance but that doesnt cover everything. The bills are massive and we are paying what we can.

duplicate

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
a reply to: Edumakated

I agree that both are frauds. But if I had to choose one I would rather it be healthcare because of the immediate benefits to me.

I agree our government can screw up boiling water but there are plenty of countries out there with great universal healthcare programs that work. Why couldn't we model ours from one of theirs or all of them?

It is debatable if the countries with universal healthcare are really any better. The big issue is that it is an apples and oranges comparison. Most of the countries with universal healthcare have small and homogeneous populations. They also do not have the other major expenses that we have the US like our military. They have stricter immigration policies. Higher taxes. Etc.

a reply to: PraetorianAZ

At least with universal healthcare, I would get to use it all throughout my life (when needed) and I could get things wrong with me treated and not have to go 50k+ in debt because my appendix decided to burst (just an example).

We have a form of socialized medicine in the United States. Just go ask a Veteran what they think of that kind of care.
I rather pay 50K and live.

A friend of my fathers went to an Army hospital for a leg amputations. They amputated the wrong leg, which resulted in him losing both legs rather than one. It was devastating for his family. This is one example, I'm sure there are tens of thousands.

Ask Canadians that are crossing borders for healthcare in the US, waiting months and months for treatment.

originally posted by: Lab4Us
The only way I would ever support universal healthcare is if there is an enforceable mandate on citizens taking at least minimal care of themselves. No smoking, limited fast food if cholesterol is within AMA guidelines, regular exercise.

Too many people break themselves through lack of taking care of themselves, then want others to foot the bill when they get chronic conditions.

Born with, I get. Self-inflicted disease...not so much.

That of course is the problem and why it doesn't work. In a free market, insurance would price accordingly so couch potatoes pay more than triathletes, etc.

I'd support universal healthcare, but we'd need to restrict immigration. You cannot have open borders and free sh*t. Simply won't work.

I also think everyone should have to pay taxes to fund the healthcare. Right now, almost 50% of the population pays no federal income taxes. None. Zip. Zilch. EVERYONE should have to pay something to pay for it. If your income is greater than zero, you need to pay taxes to support it.

I also think that the universal healthcare should be for catastrophic care only. Physicals, flu shots, colds, coughs, etc should be handled in the free market and paid for out of pocket. The indigent can use community clinics if they can't afford $50 bucks or whatever to see a doctor.

There also need to be a robust supplemental insurance market. It needs to be decoupled from employers, sold across state lines, etc.

You can get sued and lose all of your retirement benefits, but they cannot touch your social secuerity. The suit can be from hospitals. The chance that your investments can get hacked and disappear is growing, the chance that the stock market can crash and your money is half gone is always there. Did you not learn about this during the 08 crash, it took two years or more to get back what you lost.

The wife and I are on Social security, it is nice, we get our checks every month and learned to live on that money. We have savings for big things, but mostly need it to cover expenses if one of us dies and the other has reduced income. We have paid off all our debts and just have living expenses, and credit card bills we pay completely off every month.

Social security is a good investment in my mind, over the years the true growth of our stocks was not really that great, drops in the market many times erased profits, especially when we had the mutual funds. The value of the last stock we still have dropped ten grand over the last two months, that is not cool. The rest of our money is in the banks, that is guaranteed not to drop.

Usually people I know that are saying what you are saying wind up losing out in the longrun, winding up broke by the time they are seventy. Their social security checks are not enough to meet their wants, their wants usually wipe out their investments. Learn before you retire to cut back on spending, learn your real needs, spending money is an addiction for many people. It gives people a high to shop and they buy things they do not really need. Been there, done that, finally learned about eight years ago that I was on the wrong path most people are on.

The average life-expectancy of a citizen of the USA has DROPPED, in contrast to every other first world country. Scientists link this to a missing universal health care and a lowered willingness to visit doctors and hospitals connected to this.

Soo..

a reply to: PraetorianAZ

Both universal healthcare and universal retirement are great investments -- in people.

Isn't the real question which is more corrupted by political critters: Our healthcare system or Social Security???

originally posted by: rickymouse
You can get sued and lose all of your retirement benefits, but they cannot touch your social secuerity. The suit can be from hospitals. The chance that your investments can get hacked and disappear is growing, the chance that the stock market can crash and your money is half gone is always there. Did you not learn about this during the 08 crash, it took two years or more to get back what you lost.

The wife and I are on Social security, it is nice, we get our checks every month and learned to live on that money. We have savings for big things, but mostly need it to cover expenses if one of us dies and the other has reduced income. We have paid off all our debts and just have living expenses, and credit card bills we pay completely off every month.

Social security is a good investment in my mind, over the years the true growth of our stocks was not really that great, drops in the market many times erased profits, especially when we had the mutual funds. The value of the last stock we still have dropped ten grand over the last two months, that is not cool. The rest of our money is in the banks, that is guaranteed not to drop.

Usually people I know that are saying what you are saying wind up losing out in the longrun, winding up broke by the time they are seventy. Their social security checks are not enough to meet their wants, their wants usually wipe out their investments. Learn before you retire to cut back on spending, learn your real needs, spending money is an addiction for many people. It gives people a high to shop and they buy things they do not really need. Been there, done that, finally learned about eight years ago that I was on the wrong path most people are on.

Every person who had a diversified portfolio and kept their money in the stocks and 401k during the 08 crash has now made that money back and then some. Prop a lot more than they had during the crash.

In 80+ years the stock market has crashed a bunch of times. But it has never not bounced back harder and better than before.

originally posted by: rickymouse
You can get sued and lose all of your retirement benefits, but they cannot touch your social secuerity. The suit can be from hospitals. The chance that your investments can get hacked and disappear is growing, the chance that the stock market can crash and your money is half gone is always there. Did you not learn about this during the 08 crash, it took two years or more to get back what you lost.

The wife and I are on Social security, it is nice, we get our checks every month and learned to live on that money. We have savings for big things, but mostly need it to cover expenses if one of us dies and the other has reduced income. We have paid off all our debts and just have living expenses, and credit card bills we pay completely off every month.

Social security is a good investment in my mind, over the years the true growth of our stocks was not really that great, drops in the market many times erased profits, especially when we had the mutual funds. The value of the last stock we still have dropped ten grand over the last two months, that is not cool. The rest of our money is in the banks, that is guaranteed not to drop.

Usually people I know that are saying what you are saying wind up losing out in the longrun, winding up broke by the time they are seventy. Their social security checks are not enough to meet their wants, their wants usually wipe out their investments. Learn before you retire to cut back on spending, learn your real needs, spending money is an addiction for many people. It gives people a high to shop and they buy things they do not really need. Been there, done that, finally learned about eight years ago that I was on the wrong path most people are on.

I already have a very diverse portfolio and I am planning on retiring by age 55. With 15k+ disposable income per month tac free.

Whats pissing me off is if I could take the extra 400/mo I put into SS and instead add it to my portfilio I could be banking 25k/mo and not 15k

See the point im making?

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ

originally posted by: rickymouse


Whats pissing me off is if I could take the extra 400/mo I put into SS and instead add it to my portfilio I could be banking 25k/mo and not 15k

See the point im making?

Not ever gonna happen.Our lovely govt needs that money so they can spend it on other stuff besides Social Security.

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ

originally posted by: rickymouse
You can get sued and lose all of your retirement benefits, but they cannot touch your social secuerity. The suit can be from hospitals. The chance that your investments can get hacked and disappear is growing, the chance that the stock market can crash and your money is half gone is always there. Did you not learn about this during the 08 crash, it took two years or more to get back what you lost.

The wife and I are on Social security, it is nice, we get our checks every month and learned to live on that money. We have savings for big things, but mostly need it to cover expenses if one of us dies and the other has reduced income. We have paid off all our debts and just have living expenses, and credit card bills we pay completely off every month.

Social security is a good investment in my mind, over the years the true growth of our stocks was not really that great, drops in the market many times erased profits, especially when we had the mutual funds. The value of the last stock we still have dropped ten grand over the last two months, that is not cool. The rest of our money is in the banks, that is guaranteed not to drop.

Usually people I know that are saying what you are saying wind up losing out in the longrun, winding up broke by the time they are seventy. Their social security checks are not enough to meet their wants, their wants usually wipe out their investments. Learn before you retire to cut back on spending, learn your real needs, spending money is an addiction for many people. It gives people a high to shop and they buy things they do not really need. Been there, done that, finally learned about eight years ago that I was on the wrong path most people are on.

I already have a very diverse portfolio and I am planning on retiring by age 55. With 15k+ disposable income per month tac free.

Whats pissing me off is if I could take the extra 400/mo I put into SS and instead add it to my portfilio I could be banking 25k/mo and not 15k

See the point im making?

People who are responsible will never get the ROI we deserve. I'm in the same boat as you. Hoping to retire in 10 years or so at 55. The wife and I have built a pretty nice nest egg already. We both max the social security contribution every year so looking at that money and what it could be earning is infuriating.

However, the point of social security isn't to pay for my retirement. It is to pay for other people's retirement!

People don't get that social security is an IOU. Government doesn't have an account with your name on it where you've put say $300,000 in savings.

The other thing that I hate about social security is that you cannot pass it on to your children. Having generational wealth is a huge advantage. I'm the first person in my family to be "rich" or have any real wealth to my name. I'm grateful that I may be able to pass on something to my kids to help give them a leg up that I didn't have.