Is the UK a second home for US "shadow" projects? Sightings, data and so on...

We know that USAF is on the top when it comes to new technology and progression in aviation world. So many beautiful projects, so many amazing technological challenges over all those years. But... it is publicly known that US cooperate with their "cousins" on various projects and programs. Even F-117 was tested in Europe before it was officially acknowledged. What is better than testing on the green grass between hills and mountain ranges? Of course, we are talking here about the United Kingdom. The fact is that, the UK was/is a major partner in stealth technology. I think it is safe to say that, the UK has been working along with the US on many incredible projects that yet have to seen the light of a day.

Someone would say why test over England when there is enough radar types across the US. Well, that's true but LRS-B demonstrators were testing in the UK against the best ground and some airborne based radar, optical, audio and IR detection arrays. It was a few years ago.
Next question that aviation enthusiast would ask is "Why there is no actual sightings of black world aircraft or even photographs?" - the answer is very simple - because those programs are flying at nights and from places without too many people around.
You can be sure that you won't meet any "neat" airplane close to London or Edinburgh...

But the key is a compartmentalization. RAF Mildenhall was used for SR-71s during Blackbird's operational missions and U-2s were using UK bases too. The last official SR-71 mission out of Mildenhall was in 1990, it gives us 28 years til day today.

United Kingdom has their own black programs, so they have a knowledge of how to play the game.
All over the years, UK was buzzled with flying triangles and there was even a near miss with an airliner at one point.
Smaller triangles as UAVs - in the UK a great deal of development work has been done on Uninhabited Combat Air Vehicles, especially by British Aerospace. My dogged investigation onto dozens of 'UFO' sightings along the West Coast here resulted in a conclusion that in general there were two types of triangles, an LTA type of between 120-150ft (see above) seen to land at Warton on several occasions at the Special Projects Site (see Jane's 1997/8) and much smaller craft between 30-40ft in length. These were unmanned and we had a number of intercepts of these craft under test in the North Sea. The craft in question, British Aerospace's' stealthy triangular UAV (often referred to as 'HALO', a pretty meaningless term), was called the package both by RAF personnel tasked with secret testing and by military controllers in the Tower at Warton.
They have been seen to operate both from Warton and DTEO West Freugh on the SW Scottish coast. Defence Testing and Evaluation Organization is part of the UKs $10 billion a year DERA - Defence Evaluation and Research Agency - based at Farnborough, Hampshire. DTEO is headquartered as RAF Bosconbe Down, the site of several triangular operations since 1990... those UAVs were seen in formation with fighters that were accompaying them during their trials over North Sea and southern parts of United Kingdom.

Why no one wants to get closer to other UK regions? Ok, maybe Central England isn't the best choice but think about Northern regions. Scotland.
Wouldn't it be a not-so-bad idea to operate serious, deep black projects out of that region? Many hills and ranges around there.

Look even closer...

Think about RAF Lossiemouth and F-15 Eagles operating from there. Local community used to low approaches and loud noises near vicinty. Why not launch 'something neat' between or just after Eagle's take off? Add dusk or night time and BINGO.

Of course we have that post left by Astr0 a few years ago:

originally posted by: Astr0
It would be nice to see in maybe 20 - 30 years the photos of the F-117 prototype and development airframes that used RAF Lossiemouth as a staging area and their photographs of training missions over Norway.

A few other tidbits and sighting reports floating around:
"Early 2000's.
A good friend of mine Bill was staying on his boat south of Norwich.
About 10pm he was watching F15's perform through his binoculars against a starry sky.
A couple of tankers headed home as well.
A bit later on hearing more F15's he saw two heading inland with a large, almost tanker sized plane behind them, no lights on it but clearly a triangular shape against the sky."

"in august 2003 over lowestoft I was watching some f15s dogfighting early evening and a second and third flight coming over later in the evening. Just after 11:00 there was a tanker and another large jet which I could not tell what it was, only 2 engines, come in over the coast and an hour later another tanker and with it was 2 f15s trailling on either side. There was a jet just trailling the tanker slightly in front on the f15s with no nav lights, strange shape to it, a distinctive sound which was hard to tell giving the number of jets up there. Shortly after a C5 came over all on the same flight path. It was a very clear night no moon. I travelled up to the hall and the heath the next day and there was a C5 at hall parked with its tail towards the sheds where the ospreys are based. I was talking to a gentleman at the fence and he made some comments that it was a strange night at lakenheath and that the C5 had been in there and then came over to the hall. Also that lakenheath had some strange activity the night before.. I went up the next night and a few spotters where there but no planes!"

An interesting part about alleged Boscombe Down incident:
"The aircraft involved in the Boscombe Down 'incident' was originally in the Upper FIR in formation with an westbound KC135 when a serious technical problem occurred. The pilot of the aircraft requested vectors to a Government-owned runway with an 8,000+ft east-west orientated runway within 30 degrees of the nose as he had a control problem.

The source of my info. is an ATCO who was working at BAe Filton who had a VC-10 tanker airborne on a night air test. He was sat in the 'Radar Room' at Filton while monitoring the surrounding West Drayton Civ. & Mil. frequencies. He said the tanker continued westbound but the following days arrivals t Boscombe' only served to attract attention to the incident."

Zaphod suggest the Boscombe Down aircraft type was after FOC, that would rule out possibility of it being demonstrator or prototype.

+ add this piece from an outside source:
"As for the Boscome Down incident, I wasn't there, but I do know someone who *supposedly* was. I have not been able to cross check with a 2nd witness,etc. so take this with a grain of salt. A big grain of salt. Supposedly the aircraft was participating in an exercise, had an engine problem, attempted to land with some loss of hydraulics, and ended up being in more pieces than it took off in. And, supposedly, it was a Northrop aircraft, which doesn't seem to work with the idea that a Lockheed corporate aircraft was assisting in whatever cleanup took place. Hopefully an old friend from the Regiment who was on hand at the time (now retired) can help me out, but I haven't been able to track him down."

Still a lot of questions and not enough data for researches but made this thread just like it is. Compare data we have and make one picture. Any more reports, sightings, thoughts?

Let's solve the riddle!

a reply to: SpeedFanatic

While I have no personal doubt that our country has been used and is itself involved in the development of American black project's on at least more than one occasion I actually think that this is less likely today but then again hiding in plain sight is an old expression.

To my mind they have no need since it is almost certain that the US has plenty of airfield's were no one even suspect's that they may exist, what is built above ground can easily be spotted and monitored by satellite and while this is handy for sending the watchers some red herring's it is extremely annoying when you need to test something real so the answer is to build underground - right under some of there well known runways therefore probably exist large and extensive subterranean facility's with a number of exits for aircraft taking off and even landing, some of these exit's may be in the least likely places where you would not expect them and could even be miles from the red herring old fashioned but still used surface runway's.

Some may even be beneath international airport's but be intended to be used only in time's of actual war.

And not only in the US.

Very interesting thread. I love reading about this kind of stuff, in fact this is what brought me to ATS originally. One thing that jumped out at me:

originally posted by: SpeedFanatic
Think about RAF Lossiemouth and F-15 Eagles operating from there. Local community used to low approaches and loud noises near vicinty. Why not launch 'something neat' between or just after Eagle's take off? Add dusk or night time and BINGO.

This would go against the concept of compartmentalization. If you fly black aircraft out of the same base at the same time as they're flying conventional aircraft, a lot of people on base are going to see it who really don't need to. If you have a dedicated base for these things, ala Groom Lake, or at least only fly them at designated times in the middle of the night where you can have the bare minimum of support people on the flightline, it greatly reduces the number of people you have to keep quiet.

I just think about when I was at Lakenheath. When we were flying 15s, there'd be hundreds of people on the flightline at any given time. Maintenance, fuels, AGE, supervisors for all these people, airfield management, all the pilots of the other planes, etc etc. Of course you need all these people for your black aircraft too, but you don't need as many of them if you fly the black aircraft by itself. Sticking it in between launches of conventional aircraft, all the normal guys who just fuel and maintain, etc. the white aircraft see your black aircraft.

Also, regarding this story:

"in august 2003 over lowestoft I was watching some f15s dogfighting early evening and a second and third flight coming over later in the evening. Just after 11:00 there was a tanker and another large jet which I could not tell what it was, only 2 engines, come in over the coast and an hour later another tanker and with it was 2 f15s trailling on either side. There was a jet just trailling the tanker slightly in front on the f15s with no nav lights, strange shape to it, a distinctive sound which was hard to tell giving the number of jets up there. Shortly after a C5 came over all on the same flight path. It was a very clear night no moon. I travelled up to the hall and the heath the next day and there was a C5 at hall parked with its tail towards the sheds where the ospreys are based. I was talking to a gentleman at the fence and he made some comments that it was a strange night at lakenheath and that the C5 had been in there and then came over to the hall. Also that lakenheath had some strange activity the night before.. I went up the next night and a few spotters where there but no planes!"

Was the Osprey in service in 2003?

Great thread, looking forward to following this one. S&F

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: SpeedFanatic

While I have no personal doubt that our country has been used and is itself involved in the development of American black project's on at least more than one occasion I actually think that this is less likely today but then again hiding in plain sight is an old expression.

To my mind they have no need since it is almost certain that the US has plenty of airfield's were no one even suspect's that they may exist, what is built above ground can easily be spotted and monitored by satellite and while this is handy for sending the watchers some red herring's it is extremely annoying when you need to test something real so the answer is to build underground - right under some of there well known runways therefore probably exist large and extensive subterranean facility's with a number of exits for aircraft taking off and even landing, some of these exit's may be in the least likely places where you would not expect them and could even be miles from the red herring old fashioned but still used surface runway's.

Some may even be beneath international airport's but be intended to be used only in time's of actual war.

And not only in the US.

It's interesting that you mention secret facilities under airports. I'm sure everyone here has heard of some of the theories about Denver. What this brought to mind for me though was that where I grew up in northeast PA, there's been rumors of shady stuff going on in/under our regional airport (AVP, Scranton/Wilkes-Barre) for years, like construction that nobody really knows what it's for. No real juicy details but just rumbles and grumbles, ya know?

This is probably the case at every little airport though haha people make stuff up to make their local place seem more interesting.

a reply to: face23785

VMMT-204 was training crews in 2000, the first transition to the MV-22 was 2005. The Air Force transitioned in 2006.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: face23785

VMMT-204 was training crews in 2000, the first transition to the MV-22 was 2005. The Air Force transitioned in 2006.

So what would you say that means for the story where that person claims they saw an Osprey at Mildenhall or Lakenheath in 2003?

ETA: Upon reading it over a few times, he may not have meant he actually saw one in '03. He may have just been referencing where they were later kept when he was telling the story so people familiar with the base would know where he was talking about.

a reply to: face23785

That is how I read it. They were talking about the hangars that eventually housed them.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Makes more sense now that I'm reading it that way.

"FIVE EYES"

80% under Crown Rule?

If so, why is the US the 20% ?

Who's being played?

a reply to: face23785

I've recently heard an interesting story from a guy I coach lacrosse with (former USMC helo pilot) regarding the first gulf war and having to "stay inside" at some long runway in some country (not Kuwait or iraq)... we were having some beers after the kids won the championship and I'm not going to mention the location but he did have some friendly trash talk about some of the quarters the pilots landing at this long airfield got to rest up in..

Compartmentalized for sure - but the way it was described wasn't just the juxtaposition of USAF v USMC amenities, sounded like some real special treatment.

Needless to say even after beers that was about as much as he'd say - not a peep about what actual branch or type of aircraft those guys were flying... could have just as easily been something since declassified, or it could have been something that's been discussed on these boards.

Who knows - but any SAP programs we have I'm sure they utilize friendly locales as needed during testing or ops

a reply to: SonOfThor

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that the country was probably Oman.

I’m not a big conspiraloon and would usually shun the idea of the U.K. being anything other than a compliant threat, i.e. one person in the CoC knows an ‘attack’ is coming to prevent a proper scramble. I don’t see why the us would base them here in the U.K. we don’t have much space and it’s all accessible.

We might have an ability to be a recovery runway for the US but not what the OP is suggesting.

No UAV flies from Warton because AFAIK no uav is cleared to operate from there. At one end of the Warton runway is a village and the other has a trailer park! Taranis only flew in Australia, not in the U.K., it’s public access both ends of the runway via a road/highway and workers on the base can access 24/7. In working there for 15 years I was never once told not to look at the runway or not to work a night shift.

Probably the darkest hour and dirty secrets were illegal CIA rendition flights we allowed to use Prestwick airport, very secret aircraft operating in full view of the public...

Excellent thread so far and looking forward to seeing what falls out of it.
Flights between the UK and the US offer a lot of advantages both in terms of quiet locations and the time difference enabling take off/landing to both occur in the dead of night (depending how fast you go obviously).

What I’m finding really interesting at the moment is the supersonic passenger plane race that’s breaking out between NASA (QueSST), Virgin and Boom and now Boeing. Some of the commercial technology being put forward such as boom suppression is groundbreaking and to my knowledge not known/acknowledged to exist in the ‘white/grey’ world.

The Boeing proposal for a Mach 5 passenger plane within 10 years seems crazy given the materials/technology required to achieve that sort of speed at an affordable price. Obviously these planes won’t need stealth materials that require constant maintenance - but they will still be exotic.

It makes me wonder if these things are being openly done in the white world - what goes on in the black.

Interesting times.....

originally posted by: Forensick
I’m not a big conspiraloon and would usually shun the idea of the U.K. being anything other than a compliant threat, i.e. one person in the CoC knows an ‘attack’ is coming to prevent a proper scramble. I don’t see why the us would base them here in the U.K. we don’t have much space and it’s all accessible.

We might have an ability to be a recovery runway for the US but not what the OP is suggesting.

Its not just a suggestion, threads like this dont exist in a vacuum. Its not really a question if certain US Projects - like the LRSB Demos - visited the UK for one reason or another but when and where.
There were/are a lot of godforsaken RAF/MOD airfields in Scotland (and elsewhere too) which could house certain airplanes at one point or another without getting much attention.
In no particular order… Machrihanish, Leuchars, Stornoway, Kinloss, West Freugh etc.

a reply to: SonOfThor

You have a PM, sir.

a reply to: mightmight

Very well said

Correct the USAF and RAF might have been flying next gen aircraft for many years with one account picked up many years go on Salisbury plain military exercises involving the black triangular craft crewed by American airforce coming into contact with British soldiers after it had landed and they came across it

A soldier claimed an American pilot aimed a baton at his group and they were all paralysed and funny enough years before that protesters at greenham common said personnel there pointed a stick at them and they had bad headaches and were sick

before the gulf war we also had a sighting reported by the media of one of these craft hovering over the home secretly Michael Howard’s house at the time

I have found no evidence of these craft being used from gulf war onwards, if sightings of these were correct from the 90s they have since vanished or hey this is ATS there is a space force already in operation

a reply to: Forensick

Funny you should mention Australia. Australia would seem like a much better place to do this sort of thing, with its low population density. Lots of land where there's absolutely nobody to see anything.

originally posted by: DrBobH
Excellent thread so far and looking forward to seeing what falls out of it.
Flights between the UK and the US offer a lot of advantages both in terms of quiet locations and the time difference enabling take off/landing to both occur in the dead of night (depending how fast you go obviously).

Never thought of that. Makes sense though.

originally posted by: mightmight

originally posted by: Forensick
I’m not a big conspiraloon and would usually shun the idea of the U.K. being anything other than a compliant threat, i.e. one person in the CoC knows an ‘attack’ is coming to prevent a proper scramble. I don’t see why the us would base them here in the U.K. we don’t have much space and it’s all accessible.

We might have an ability to be a recovery runway for the US but not what the OP is suggesting.

Its not just a suggestion, threads like this dont exist in a vacuum. Its not really a question if certain US Projects - like the LRSB Demos - visited the UK for one reason or another but when and where.
There were/are a lot of godforsaken RAF/MOD airfields in Scotland (and elsewhere too) which could house certain airplanes at one point or another without getting much attention.
In no particular order… Machrihanish, Leuchars, Stornoway, Kinloss, West Freugh etc.

I did a TDY at Leuchars back in '05 for an exercise Actually one of my more enjoyable assignments. The Scottish people were super friendly, had a great time up there apart from the cold (this was in November). Didn't see anything crazy. Coolest thing I saw was a Harrier swoop in and hover over the runway while I was refueling one of the American 15s.

a reply to: face23785

There have be a couple interesting sightings of weapons tests that didn't make the news in Australia.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I wonder If the corridor between Woomera and Diego Garcia is ever used for anything. I can't think of a more remote place on Earth to test an aircraft, save possibly for transantarctic routes.

there is always a alternative:
in his book operation trojan horse, john keel exposes various sightings of misterious planes seen in various locations around the world, from a small landed plane that had a golf ball surface, to a gigantic plane that seemed to be stalking a airport in argentina, all these reports happened in the 60's, any plane of this kind would have been revealed by now.
yet we have these reports, what does this mean? the same entity behind UFOs and ghosts (the cosmic trickster) is making these fake planes

originally posted by: humanoidlord
there is always a alternative:
in his book operation trojan horse, john keel exposes various sightings of misterious planes seen in various locations around the world, from a small landed plane that had a golf ball surface, to a gigantic plane that seemed to be stalking a airport in argentina, all these reports happened in the 60's, any plane of this kind would have been revealed by now.
yet we have these reports, what does this mean? the same entity behind UFOs and ghosts (the cosmic trickster) is making these fake planes

One theory I've always liked is that, in addition to the real projects, they build a bunch of fake ones. Imagine a bunch of guys sitting around a room dreaming up the most ridiculous aircraft concepts, making sure someone sees you flying it, and then the Russians, Chinese etc get wind of it and spend 5 years in R&D trying to figure out what advantage there is to having the surface of the aircraft pockmarked like a golf ball.