Gravitational waves Nobel discovery change tech. constraints for Star trek & UFO understanding

originally posted by: Blue ShiftI don't know about you, but I'm not aware of the existence of any engine powered by a couple of colliding supermassive black holes.

Maybe the supercharged 6.2-liter V8 in a Dodge Challenger SRT Demon.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

I think here possibly there is a kind of misunderstanding, in my opinion is not that we need to generate an event that produce the waves, but more like to develop technologies that get benefit from the gravitational waves that catastrophic events in the cosmos release naturally, as a source of energy to move the spacecrafts.

The way I understand this is in a similar way that engineers have proposed to use the solar wind to move spacecrafts, by using a kind of giant screens to oppose resistance against it, so the sum of the impacts of all the solar wind altogether collected in the screen generates the necessary momentum to push the space vehicle.

In other words these technologies use the gravitational radiation instead of stelar wind in a look like way to the sail boats of the time of Christopher Columbus used to move over the ocean over the marine currents and pushed by the winds.

To understand this I suggest you to refer to Solar sail, that is a typical example of an idea that can be adapted to use gravitational waves pressure instead, it uses photon sails ( giant mirrors) to use radiation pressure as a source of energy for propulsion.

Please check:
Solar Sail space propulsion Technology

To determine precisely the location and the radiation flows from the sources of gravitational waves in the cosmos is a first step, as it was for Columbus to collect information from winds and marine current charts that he could use to move his ships from the coast of Africa to the far East going toward the west.

Now the needed sails must not be necessarily material structures, that may look so much difficult to be built due the size required to trap the amount of radiation required, but instead would be fields sails, as it is the case of the project Sail E-way, that use electric field ones.

Please check:
www.scientificamerican.com...

Of course you can object that gravitational waves are not everywhere in the cosmos, but as soon as we know where are they coming from, which points are generating them in the cosmos we can create maps of the gravitational currents that cross the cosmic ocean and use the flows that are in the direction we want to go to generate the needed propulsion.

Stelar winds and gravitational waves may provide the magical source of sustainable energy to make reality the dream to travel far distances in the space.

This is what the boats on the oceans of earth use to economize fuel and boost their momentum naturally.

Please check:

oceancurrents.rsmas.miami.edu...

The Angel of Lightness

If you give it a moment's thought, you'll see that gravitational waves will be coming from every possible direction, and therefore cannot be used in any manner similar to a solar sail.

You don't even need to calculate the amount of energy available in gravitational waves (which is exceedingly small) to realize your proposition is a non-starter.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Uh... no.

The wave passes through the planet from a given direction, issuing outward from a single point in space and time, warping the fabric of these things, as it propagates away from its origin point. Just because it is not a beam, but a wave, does not mean it comes from every single direction at once.

a reply to: The angel of light

Except that gravitational waves couple extremely weakly to matter, propagate pretty much unimpeded. This means the amount of energy transferred when passing through matter is utterly insignificant. This is also the reason why they are so hard to detect.

You wont get anywhere with a gravitational wave sail.

a reply to: TrueBrit

We are talking about detectable gravitational waves, not the ones an animal or person can produce, that are infinitesimal.

Only massive objects that undergo rapid accelerations can produce the kind of gravitational waves that are detectable at large distances, that can cross the cosmos.

This means that the object can not be even a planet or comet, a source of this type must be dying stars, supernovas, black holes, binary stars.

Of course there is no background noise coming from everywhere of detectable gravitational waves, if that would be the case they should be observed first time not on 2016 but by Einstein himself.

Only catastrophic events produce these gravitational waves, they most be extremely energetic to ripple the space time around the point occurs, so you need really powerful look like explosions or collisions occurring somewhere to generate a train of them going radially from that point of the space time.

I think you must check the following link that explains each of the types of detectable gravitational waves:

Continuous Gravitational Waves,
Compact Binary Inspiral Gravitational Waves,
Stochastic Gravitational Waves,
Burst Gravitational Waves.

Please check:
www.ligo.caltech.edu...

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Harte

Uh... no.

The wave passes through the planet from a given direction, issuing outward from a single point in space and time, warping the fabric of these things, as it propagates away from its origin point. Just because it is not a beam, but a wave, does not mean it comes from every single direction at once.

You are claiming that there exists ONLY one pair of interacting black holes in the universe?

Besides, anything that has mass that's in motion, including your fingers when you typed the above, creates gravitational waves.

So, uh... yes.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Again your posts are a distraction sophism here, we have already and since the beginning established that here the discussion is about detectable gravitational waves, the examples you are giving are not even remotely in that category.

What is the mass of a human finger? how fast you can naturally move it? don't you see that you can't produce any detectable gravitational wave with such a tiny mass and slow acceleration?

Once again: we are referring to extremely energetic giant catastrophic events occurring in the space time.

Now, of course there are a lot of sources of detectable gravitational waves, but that does not mean they are useless to provide useful energy.

There are also a lot of maritime currents in the Atlantic and in the pacific and who ever knows their paths can use them to navigate, that is something has been done by boats since the times of Vasco de Gama and Christopher Columbus.

Gravitational waves have trajectories through which they travel, and when ever there is energy moving in a well defined direction there is a way to use it to move with it.

Is it not proven that the Universe expands from an original mega explosion called the big bang? if entire galaxies are still moving today with energy coming from such events happened millions of years ago of course spacecrafts can do so.

The Angel of LIghtness

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Harte

Again your posts are a distraction sophism here, we have already and since the beginning established that here the discussion is about detectable gravitational waves, the examples you are giving are not even remotely in that category.

What is the mass of a human finger? how fast you can naturally move it? don't you see that you can't produce any detectable gravitational wave with such a tiny mass and slow acceleration?

Once again: we are referring to extremely energetic giant catastrophic events occurring in the space time.

Any kind of wave is additive. If you didn't know that, you do now.

Besides, as was pointed out, you can't sail matter on a gravity wave - the wave simply distorts the sail in the same way it distorts all of space time, so the very idea is ludicrous from the start.

originally posted by: [post=22757808]Now, of course there are a lot of sources of detectable gravitational waves, but that does not mean they are useless to provide useful energy.

Yes, that doesn't mean they are useless for providing energy. The very nature of gravity waves makes them useless for providing energy.

originally posted by: [post=22757808]There are also a lot of maritime currents in the Atlantic and in the pacific and who ever knows their paths can use them to navigate, that is something has been done by boats since the times of Vasco de Gama and Christopher Columbus.

There is no hypothesis of a gravity "current." Perhaps you should develop one. Start with General Relativity and let us know when you get there.

originally posted by: [post=22757808]Gravitational waves have trajectories through which they travel, and when ever there is energy moving in a well defined direction there is a way to use it to move with it.

No, gravity waves are spherical- in all directions at the same time - just like light.

originally posted by: [post=22757808]Is it not proven that the Universe expands from an original mega explosion called the big bang? if entire galaxies are still moving today with energy coming from such events happened millions of years ago of course spacecrafts can do so.

The Angel of LIghtness

No, it's not proven, but it's (mostly) accepted.

However, the galaxies aren't flying apart because of some explosion, they are simply riding on the expanding space they exist within. No energy is applied to the galaxies to make them move apart.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

One event, occurring in one location in space and time, produces a wave which issues from that one, singular point in space and time. It does not propagate away from the opposite side of the universe, but from its origin point only. I am not saying that there is only one pair of black holes, neutron stars, or what have you, that ever do these things, because that would be sincerely stupid, given what we know of the mechanism by which our universe came about in the first place.

However, what I am saying, is that one single event produces waves which can be identified as having that singular source. Another similar event, will deliver separate, but similar waves, from a totally different location in space, heading outward from a totally different location in space. This is relatively simple, so I am not sure why grasping it poses such an issue.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Harte

One event, occurring in one location in space and time, produces a wave which issues from that one, singular point in space and time. It does not propagate away from the opposite side of the universe, but from its origin point only. I am not saying that there is only one pair of black holes, neutron stars, or what have you, that ever do these things, because that would be sincerely stupid, given what we know of the mechanism by which our universe came about in the first place.

However, what I am saying, is that one single event produces waves which can be identified as having that singular source. Another similar event, will deliver separate, but similar waves, from a totally different location in space, heading outward from a totally different location in space. This is relatively simple, so I am not sure why grasping it poses such an issue.

How many such events are occurring? That was the point.

One poster here thinks that you can catch a gravity wave in a sail - my point is, what about the gravity waves that are coming from the other directions? Will they not be "caught" by your sail as well?

Not that it matters, gravity waves don't act like wind, atmospheric OR solar.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Ah, I see what you are getting at now.

Indeed, these waves only stretch the fabric of space and time, rather more like the waves in jelly when it wobbles. They do not actually move material within the mass, from one side of it to the other, as a particular particle in the sea might find itself first in one part of the ocean, and then after a time, another.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Hi,

I only want to give just one more additional remark concerning the series of replies of this person that evidently is decided to attack from all possible angles the idea that something can be moved using the same energy that has been released in catastrophic events in the cosmos:

The solar wind also moves around the sun , or any Star if we generalize it as star wind, in spherical radiation, and Notice that it is being proposed as a energetic source of propulsion systems that use magnetic sails since the 1980s.

Now, if there is solar or star wind everywhere in the cosmos logically a space navigator must perform as right now an automatic pilot in any Jet do checking the ascending and descending currents of wind to use the ones are in its way in the most intelligent way to move toward its destination and not in any other direction.

Trajectory optimization is what this task is called in space navigation, it is to go into the regions of the space that favor the advance of the spacecraft toward its goal and avoid the ones that make it more difficult, in other words move using the stars of the sources of gravitational waves that radiates in the direction one want to move and avoid the ones that are doing so in opposition direction.

A current or flow of gravitational waves against the desired direction must be avoided at most by changing the navigation path away of its influence and toward the ones that favor the movement.

This is what Apollo 13 mission carried out when they suffered the terrible explosion in the service module, in order to economize precious fuel, they used the gravity force of the moon to gain velocity to come back to earth. The moon attraction acted as a natural catapult to make the spacecrafts launched again back to our planet faster than if they tried to turn back before they reached the moon orbit.

Please check:
Why apollo 13 decided to go anyway in to a moon randevouz after the accident?

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

Perhaps you missed the part about how the wave will simply pass through your sail?

Harte

a reply to: Harte

That depends on what kind of maneuver is performed by the space craft in going around the source of gravitational waves and also on which sail is being used, in other words on what is used to sail them.

I think that is what you are still missing apart of the fact of your absurd comments that spherical radiation can never be used to navigate in space at all, or that the motion of human hands generate detectable gravitational waves.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: TrueBrit

They do not actually move material within the mass, from one side of it to the other, as a particular particle in the sea might find itself first in one part of the ocean, and then after a time, another.

Ocean waves do not transport particles. The particles are "disturbed" as they transport the energy of the wave, but there is no net motion.

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Harte

That depends on what kind of maneuver is performed by the space craft in going around the source of gravitational waves and also on which sail is being used, in other words on what is used to sail them.

I think that is what you are still missing apart of the fact of your absurd comments that spherical radiation can never be used to navigate in space at all, or that the motion of human hands generate detectable gravitational waves.

The Angel of Lightness

That's how you make your case? Putting words in my mouth?
Please note - I also said light is a spherical wave, and... I mentioned solar sails.

Do you imagine you know enough about this topic to have anything like an intelligent conversation?

Harte

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: TrueBrit

They do not actually move material within the mass, from one side of it to the other, as a particular particle in the sea might find itself first in one part of the ocean, and then after a time, another.

Ocean waves do not transport particles. The particles are "disturbed" as they transport the energy of the wave, but there is no net motion.

Since I'm already the bad guy in this thread, I didn't want to mention that.
But, yes, only energy is transferred in an ocean (or light) wave. Until it hits the beach, anyway.

Regarding gravity waves, you'd have to be able to catch some space time - like you catch an ocean wave (surfing) or a light wave (particles - solar sail) to utilize the energy in it.

That implies existing in a higher dimension than our space time. A place where space time would be palpable, like photons or the ocean.

Or the wind.

Harte

a reply to: Harte
To catch one of those you have to first match their speed. So...no.

Surfers don't ride open ocean swells though, they ride breaking waves. Different situation entirely. I've daydreamed about catching a breaking gravity wave. I wonder what sort of reef would be required.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Harte
To catch one of those you have to first match their speed. So...no.
Surfers don't ride open ocean swells though, they ride breaking waves. Different situation entirely.

You don't get the excitement riding an open ocean wave, but you can do it.

originally posted by: PhageI've daydreamed about catching a breaking gravity wave. I wonder what sort of reef would be required.

Probably the kind of reef you were smoking when you were daydreaming that.

Harte