This time, conservatives are the ones pissing me off.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Nordic people are inherently better people than the people in the USA?

a reply to: deadlyhope

No, their culture is different.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Shut up and believe the corp media tells you./sarc

I wonder if any of these 6 huge media companies have or own stock in let's say GE?

a reply to: Ghost147

Every single Canadian I've ever heard make a comment on this says exactly the same thing. Are you guys programmed by the Illuminati to say the same thing?

a reply to: MoreInterior

Every year we are divided our country becomes weaker and weaker. The commonwealth is crumbling.

All I can hear from the part of "NO-HEALTH" is whine-whine-whine about "oouuuh, the government will OWNZ us!".
It already does, doesn't it?

You should demand your right of a healthy mind in a healthy body!

Do you not see that the rest of the western world is shaking its heads about your whining about "but this is socialism, if I have to care (or even PAY!) a share for ill people while I'm healthy!!". This is not socialism, not as in the definition of political socialism.

This is humanism. Helping each other.

If you fall, would you deny being helped on your feet? Or would you rather lie there while proudly waving a little flag telling us how wonderful some constitution has helped you lie on the ground?

Do you think that is air you are breathing? Okay, this was from the movie "Matrix", but sometimes some people on this board seem to me to be in such a dense bubble that I would really like to reach out into their lives and shake them: DO YOU REALLY WANT TO GO BANKRUPT BY PAYING FOR YOUR HEALTH?!

Because that is just insanity..

Eventually our healthcare system will change to universal. Given enough time, the misinformed over the hill people that see basic healthcare as some type of creeping evil socialism will die off, thanks in part to their own rejection of a basic healthcare system.

Then we can move forward and actually pretend like we're living in this century.

a reply to: ManFromEurope

What is super funny is if you get sick and can't work, guess what.... You can't afford health insurance-it's gone. So you get sick you loose it anyway.

The system is not set up to allow access to medical health, it is set up to build barriers.

ZYRTEC® has side effects !!

a reply to: deadlyhope

I've met quite a few people from Canada, and the major complaint is that they only treat urgent things - they don't really diagnose, prevent, etc at all costs.

They say the quality of care is fine, just that they go private if they want to get ahead of something the system doesn't cover.

Are you freaking serious? So you are OK with only treating urgent things?
Well good for you! I see things differently. I stay on top of my health. I use preventative care.
I'm so glad that you are OK with the government telling you what you can and cannot treat. Actually instead of telling the rest of America what to do, why don't you just move to Canada?

a reply to: cynicalheathen

So the problem I have here is that healthcare is NOT a right but access to it is....there is so little difference there. All of these issues would be taken care of if we went socialized.

But the biggest problem is that your last two points, while you think they are logic based (and maybe they are) are NOT realistic. You are talking about idealism. That's a grand talking point we Socialists hear all the time and I actually do believe there is a difference between idealism and reality...even in Socialism.

Companies who open the door to pre-existing open the door wide when they are allowed. Soon enough pre-existing can cover things that were not the fault of the patient. But then if we had socialized healthcare, you could still choose to use it or not

originally posted by: Martin75
a reply to: deadlyhope

I've met quite a few people from Canada, and the major complaint is that they only treat urgent things - they don't really diagnose, prevent, etc at all costs.

They say the quality of care is fine, just that they go private if they want to get ahead of something the system doesn't cover.

Are you freaking serious? So you are OK with only treating urgent things?
Well good for you! I see things differently. I stay on top of my health. I use preventative care.
I'm so glad that you are OK with the government telling you what you can and cannot treat. Actually instead of telling the rest of America what to do, why don't you just move to Canada?

You understand you can still do your preventative stuff no matter what system you have?

The private insurance companies also limit care and treatment.

Private health insurance is private "socialism".

originally posted by: deadlyhope

We have to talk seriously about impeachment of every political figure that's in there, and complete restructure of our political process, and corporate involvement or rather removing their involvement...

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Freedom does NOT mean freedom from natural consequences of one's choices and actions. In fact, libertarians would argue that artificially preventing those natural consequences through various social spending exercises like universal healthcare, welfare, and the like is the antithesis of freedom, as freedom means you are free to soar or to crash and burn... entirely on your own merits and decisions.

Social Darwinism absolutely works, but it's success is directly tied to elimination of fascist taxation and redistributive policies and artificial handcuffs. Why does Social Darwinism work, you ask? Easy, because the problems of society are self-correcting as long as society minds their own business and only their own business.

originally posted by: KyoZero
a reply to: cynicalheathen

So the problem I have here is that healthcare is NOT a right but access to it is....there is so little difference there. All of these issues would be taken care of if we went socialized.

Sounds good, now explain HOW.

But the biggest problem is that your last two points, while you think they are logic based (and maybe they are) are NOT realistic. You are talking about idealism. That's a grand talking point we Socialists hear all the time and I actually do believe there is a difference between idealism and reality...even in Socialism.

Enough word salad.

- Explain how letting consumers pay ala carte just for the services that they want/need is possibly a bad thing.

- Explain how costs WON'T go up, whether in a for-profit or not-for-profit healthcare system when everything is covered, and there's no incentive to not smoke, drink, or get fat.

If you don't take care of yourself and partake in activities PROVEN to cause health problems, you suffer the consequences. Others should not subsidize your bad behavior.

Companies who open the door to pre-existing open the door wide when they are allowed. Soon enough pre-existing can cover things that were not the fault of the patient. But then if we had socialized healthcare, you could still choose to use it or not

And the system would quickly be insolvent.

For an example of how well the U.S. Govt runs things, I can point to the postal service, Medicare, the V.A., the various social safety nets. All provide excellent service and are fiscally responsible. I'm sure that government administer healthcare would be just fine...

/sarc

For the record, per the thread title, I am decidedly NOT a conservative.

You want to solve the problem, ban lobbyists from Washington and start hanging any politician who continues dealing with them after.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
God damn conservatives - Are you seriously THIS HELL BENT on not allowing our nation to progress at all?

Talks of Universal Healthcare - And all you can do is complain about how we're not communistic North Korea and other jack-ass arguments that hold no water?

Many European/Nordic countries, along with some others like Australia, New Zealand have....

Less crime
Less pollution/More use of renewable sources
Less inequality
Higher education standards/testing - Cheaper/free education for universities
Higher reported levels of happiness
Lower mortality rates
AND MORE

Yet you're god damned American dream of becoming a corrupt Monopolistic billionaire life-sucking company like big-pharma corporations or Monsanto or the like make you reject any idea other than your capitalistic nightmare?

I don't understand, not even a tiny bit.

You talk about freedom, and the american dream, and justice - Yet you don't care if capitalism means child slaves brought you your goods. You don't give a damn if even basic essential life-giving care at a hospital is given to a person - What about their freedom? What about homeless children, people diagnosed with cancer, or those otherwise unable to provide for themselves at no fault of their own?

But it's survival of the fittest, is it not? Make your own damn money, don't take mine - I'll give mine to corrupt corporations that sell things at 3000% mark-ups after using child labor...

Those too weak should fail anyways, right? Perhaps even die if they don't have the money to pay their bills...?

Welcome to Facism, assholes.

It's not the left that's demanding a more elite and pristine society.

It's the right.

Conservatives piss me off alot welcome to the club.

There are other countries that have better health outcomes for (at the most) 1/2 the cost.
Smoking rates are very low in the US because the truth was finally ripped from the tobacco Co's hands.
The same would be true if we were given the truth on other issues.

- Explain how letting consumers pay ala carte just for the services that they want/need is possibly a bad thing.

- Explain how costs WON'T go up, whether in a for-profit or not-for-profit healthcare system when everything is covered, and there's no incentive to not smoke, drink, or get fat.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

a reply to: deadlyhope

You are missing the point entirely, just like all of the Bernie supporters. All of that stuff you proposed sounds wonderful, it really does. Unfortunately it does not mesh with the reality we live in.

Massive powers handed over to government is ALWAYS....ALWAYS abused. Progressive policy ALWAYS ignores human nature. If there is something to be abused, stolen, taken, skimmed, defrauded, or taken advantage of, it WILL HAPPEN..EVERY...SINGLE....TIME...without exception.

We continue to ignore history, ignore reality, ignore what is happening right in front of our eyes. Our government is a massive bloated machine of evil, abused by nasty people for personal gain.

No, I do not want government handling healthcare. No, I will not support progressive politicians.

If you want all of the nice shiny free stuff from the government, the only way I will EVER support it, is to completely reform our government and jail our abusers. Until then, I will be fighting against you and anyone else wanting to expand the machine.

Do you REALLY want big pharma and all of the other massive corrupt corporations ruling over our healthcare more than they already do?

Instead of the typical argument of "hey, look at Europe" (which isn't a very good argument to begin with), go back through history. Find me ONE example of a large centralized government that didn't end up in the oppression and murder of every population under it's control.

ONE example, that's it.

a reply to: deadlyhope

First someone says this:

Talks of Universal Healthcare - And all you can do is complain about how we're not communistic North Korea and other jack-ass arguments that hold no water?

Then they said this:

Yet you're god damned American dream of becoming a corrupt Monopolistic billionaire life-sucking company like big-pharma corporations or Monsanto or the like make you reject any idea other than your capitalistic nightmare?

Which is what universal healthcare is.

A trillion dollar monopoly ran by the state.

And you call that 'progress' ?

Uh NO.

You can't recycle 100 year old political 'arguments', and call it progress.

a reply to: neo96

The system we are under is going to collapse.

At some point Joe and Jane six pack are going to look at their 2.3 children and realize they can't have a home and health insurance. Let alone a car, food, heat.....

It is after all just medical care-not rocket science. There are more efficient ways to deliver it, and it is already in place in other countries.