question for the free masons

I was wondering why is Hiram Abiff sometimes portrayed riding a goat (ram/aries)?

I understand the old riding a goat joke in the lodge coming from past demonization of the witches and the links between pan to satan. This parody is not what I am asking about.

I didnt understand. How can you ride a goat? Like a horse you mean? But how?

a reply to: xbeta

That is not important. How one can ride a goat or ride an ant or dragon does not matter. The symbolism behind it is what I am curious about.

a reply to: Golantrevize

It symbolizes it is a stupid thing to do maybe then.

a reply to: xbeta
Ok byebye now

a reply to: Golantrevize

Yous bouts ta get banned lol. Just ask innocent ?. We just play on ATS. It's all censored and dudes that run it are all wanna-be masons. Great now I'm banned too. Good job.

Is that ba-a-ad?

a reply to: Bedlam

Lol

a reply to: Golantrevize

Where? No, i have a little more time. I will read more stuff and post music.

a reply to: Idreamofme

No they are all here to deny ignorance remember

a reply to: Golantrevize

Re-member. :-)

youtu.be...

originally posted by: Golantrevize
I was wondering why is Hiram Abiff sometimes portrayed riding a goat (ram/aries)?

I understand the old riding a goat joke in the lodge coming from past demonization of the witches and the links between pan to satan. This parody is not what I am asking about.

www.christian-restoration.com...

"''It has to be admitted that this is the most 'Masonic like' part of our ceremony'' - The Orange Order, An Evangelic Perspective, page 12

Note:
The single ritual described below is referred to as 'riding the goat'. This is derived from the degree password 'GOAT' which are the first letters of 'The Ark Of God' reversed. Interestingly it is satanism which delights in reversing the things of God such as the Lord's prayer, the Cross, etc. and the goat itself is a symbol of baphomet - linked to the higher degrees of Freemasonry, as well as satanism of course.

The 'joke' of telling nervous candidates that they are about to ride the goat is taken straight from Freemasonry. ( pages 86,87 'Masonry. Beyond the Light' by Wm. Schnoebelen)"

originally posted by: Golantrevize
I was wondering why is Hiram Abiff sometimes portrayed riding a goat (ram/aries)?

I understand the old riding a goat joke in the lodge coming from past demonization of the witches and the links between pan to satan. This parody is not what I am asking about.

Never seen a picture of HM riding a goat...? Got a link?

I've been in my lodge for a number of years and any reference to goats is used in jest.

But maybe, like all conspiracy pursuers tell me, I'm 'too low level' and not part of the Illuminaughty to be told when I get my own goat.

a reply to: xbeta

Actually the correct term used is not "riding a goat" but something closer to the likes of "helping a goat over a fence".

originally posted by: noonebutme

But maybe, like all conspiracy pursuers tell me, I'm 'too low level' and not part of the Illuminaughty to be told when I get my own goat.

If you were New Zealand Rite, it would be a sheep.

a reply to: RainyState

Goats are very stubborn. In either case symbolism as you want to see it is not changing much.

a reply to: Golantrevize

Perhaps I am too low of a level, or perhaps it is due to my Continental-style affiliation, but this is the first I've ever heard about riding a goat, and there are no mentions of goats nor imagery of goats in my Lodge.

I did a quick net search, and it appears to be an unfounded accusation:

Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon: Riding the Goat

Rather than antimasonry, it was in attacks on the Odd Fellows that riding the goat was first claimed to be an aspect of initiation. The anonymous Odd Fellowship Exposed (Exeter New Hampshire, 1845) is the earliest extant attack, while James Madison, in his Exposition (1848) refers to "...the prevalent notion of Masonic and Odd Fellows initiations."2 By the time the goat came to be associated with all secret societies it was no longer perceived as a malicious slander, perpetrated in an anti-masonic attack, but was merely a jocular euphemism, embraced by many freemasons.

Masonic Dictionary: Goat

The vulgar idea that "riding the goat " constitutes a part of the ceremonies of initiation in a Masonic Lodge has its real origin in the superstitions of antiquity.

The old Greeks and Romans portrayed their mystical god Pan in horns and hoof and shaggy hide, and called him "goat-footed." When the demonology of the classics was taken up and modified by the early Christians, Pan gave way to Satan, who naturally inherited his attributes, so that to the common mind the devil was represented by a he goat, and his best-known marks were the horns, the beard, and the cloven hoofs.

Then came the witch stories of the Middle Ages and the belief in the witch orgies, where it was said that the devil appeared riding on a goat. These orgies of the witches, where, amid fearfully blasphemous ceremonies, they practiced initiation into their Satanic rites, became to the vulgar and the illiterate the type of the Masonic mysteries; for, as Dr. Oliver says, it was in England a common belief that the Freemasons were accustomed in their Lodges "to raise the devil." So the "riding of the goat," which was believed to be practiced by the witches, was transferred to the Freemasons, and the saying remains to this day, although the belief has long since died out.

- Source: The National Freemason - 1873

a reply to: Sahabi

I'm afraid Sahabi is correct. It's sort of a standing joke in my home lodge that the "Georgia Rite" involves farm animals, generally stump broke. But it's a joke. A canard. A witticism based on the scurrilous misperceptions of our northeastern brethren that our interstates are gravel, and that we are livestock botherers.

a reply to: Bedlam

I made sure in the op to say I was not reffering to the riding the goat joke. I am asking about the symboliam of harim abiff on the goat.

originally posted by: Golantrevize
a reply to: Bedlam

I made sure in the op to say I was not reffering to the riding the goat joke. I am asking about the symboliam of harim abiff on the goat.

I've never seen this portrayal, and I'm having a difficult time finding any illustrations of Hiram Abiff riding a goat. I'm net searching with the keywords: [ Hiram Abiff + Goat ] but still coming up short.

Could you please share a pic or link? Thanks in advance!


Pic may or may not be relevant to the discussion