Avoiding Action - Will and Freedom of Will in Prakrti

What amazing insight do you have on this subject of free will? It is my premise that a person acts by the will of another, not their own. This is a good thing, as you will read. Motivation drives you to act, even if you sense you should not. It's hard to resist the nature of things moving you. Impossible as a matter of fact for some. What dictates this?

Prakrti

Prakrti is a function of Samkhya.

Prakṛti is the first cause of the manifest material universe — of everything except the puruṣa. Prakṛti accounts for whatever is physical, both mind and matter-cum-energy or force. Since it is the first principle (tattva) of the universe, it is called the pradhāna, but, as it is the unconscious and unintelligent principle, it is also called the jaDa. It is composed of three essential characteristics (trigunas). These are:

Sattva – poise, fineness, lightness, illumination, and joy;
Rajas – dynamism, activity, excitation, and pain;
Tamas – inertia, coarseness, heaviness, obstruction, and sloth.[106][108][109]

The question is this: Is it possible to resist the action that is inevitable? Can the design of the universe be so precise, that your every thought and choice in action can be managed to the point of moving you to act from beginning to end? Is the first cause of the universe such that your choice is predictable, yet unavoidable? I believe that we are here to experience ignorance of our higher nature, thereby developing self-control without it. It is a struggle to resist what we know, but even harder to resist what is right in front of us (what we ignore with lack of control). This is the beauty of life and the reason we will appreciate our higher nature when once again united with it.

It is my contention that our actions, while they seem to be our own, are really enfolded by our mind before we are ever born. In other words, our own first cause is a programmed sequence put into place by our higher mind before we ever enter this existence. For instance, I know that if I tell you something beyond this point, your immediate reaction to the words in this thread are predictable, not by the words in the thread, but by your own nature to answer the thread before reading it. I'll get to the evidence later in the posts.

LINK

An account of action in the Bhagavad Gita which questions how far our actions are really our own: The Gita seems to hold that everywhere actions are always being performed by the or characteristic qualities of Prakrti, the primal matter. It is through ignorance and false pride that one thinks himself to be the agent. In another place it is said that for the occurrence of an action there are five causes, viz. the body, the agent, the various senseorgans, the various life-functions and biomotor activities, and the unknown objective causal elements or the all controlling power of God (daiva). All actions being due to the combined operation of these five elements, it would be wrong to think the self or the agent to be the only performer of actions. Thus it is said that, this being so, he who thinks the self alone to be the agent of actions, this wicked-minded person through his misapplied intelligence does not see things properly. Whatever actions are performed, right or wrong,

whether in body, speech or mind, have these five factors as their causes. The philosophy that underlies the ethical position of the Gita consists in the fact that, in reality, actions are made to happen primarily through the movement of the characteristic qualities of Prakrti, and secondarily, through the collocation of the five factors mentioned, among which the self is but one factor only. It is, therefore, sheer egoism to think that one can, at his own sweet will, undertake a work or cease from doing works. For the Prakrti, or primal matter, through its later evolutes, the collocation of causes, would of itself move us to act, and even in spite of the opposition of our will we are led to perform the very action which we did not want to perform. So Krishna says to Arjuna that the egoism through which you would say that you would not fight is mere false vanity, since the Prakrti is bound to lead you to action. A man is bound by the active tendencies or actions which necessarily follow directly from his own nature, and there is no escape. He has to work in spite of the opposition of his will. Prakrti, or the collocation of the five factors, moves us to work. That being so, no one can renounce all actions. If renouncing actions is an impossibility, and if one is bound to act, it is but proper that one should perform one's normal duties. There are no duties and no actions which are absolutely faultless, absolutely above all criticism; so the proper way in which a man should purify his actions is by purging his mind of all imperfections and impurities of desires and attachment. But a question may arise how, if all actions follow necessarily as the product of the five-fold collocation, a person can determine his actions? The general implication of the Gita seems to be that, though the action follows necessarily as the product of the fivefold collocation, yet the self can give a direction to these actions; if a man wishes to dissociate himself from all attachments and desires by dedicating the fruits of all his actions to God and clings to God with such a purpose, God helps him to attain his noble aim.

My assumption is that your nature told you to ignore everything beyond the questions above, so you have acted before reading this line. Resist replying to the thread in any way. If you have free will, then this thread should remain empty all day. If not, what is moving you to reply? Within the question, there is the quest. What motivates you to act? Both your programmed nature and the desire to know. By this, your desire to express what you know. It is this knowing that dictates your action. Don't reply. The actor in this case is Prakrti if you do. You had nothing to do with it.

The cause that moves us is an attraction to a positive end. All that we do or think cannot move us from the positive, no matter how much we resist. Attention to detail is important. Remember your job in this thread. Use your free will to follow the instructions.

Failure to exhibit free will is failure to pay attention to detail. Our nature is weakness against the strong force of nature. To our benefit, nature moves us the right way, even when we fail. Have faith it moved you correctly.

Choose wisely.

originally posted by: DayAfterTomorrow
What amazing insight do you have on this subject of free will?

"To have 'free-will' is to have the ability to 'do otherwise'.
In the complete history of the Universe, no being has ever 'done otherwise', no moment has ever been 'otherwise'!"

'Free-will/choice' exists as a *thought*, a 'belief', a 'feeling'. Thats all. But it exists! Everything exists!
The notion of 'free-will/choice' is unsupportable both from a scientific or philosophical perspective.
Yet it exists in/as 'ego/thought'.
'Thoughts' come in various flavors; memory, anticipatory/expective, imagination, ...
That which exists as 'thought', exists! (as 'thought')
Everything exists!

Benjamin Libet's famous experiment certainly pounded another nail in the 'free-will/choice' coffin! Demonstrating the the brain initiated the action "prior" to the 'choice' being made, 100% of the time!
There are so many nails in that obsolete vain belief's coffin already, but i don't have the space, here, to elaborate.

'Free-will/choice' depends on some moment of existence being 'otherwise'! Never, never in the existence of existence has (or can be) any moment ever been 'otherwise'! Ever! What is, is, and that's all that is or ever can be!
What is, (already) is!

Every moment of existence exists Now!

"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Here! Now!!

There is only one moment (Planck moment; 10^-43/sec; "almost" one billion trillion trillion trillionths of a second!!!) of the entirety of existence/Reality/the Universe!
All existence, ever, is one, literally, 'timeless' moment!
Now!

A 'moment' is a unit of perception, a percept!

"Reality is a synchrony of moments!"

Another point.
To completely define something, the context in which it is perceived must be included in the description.
Ultimately, the COMPLETE context of anything is the entire Universe! (at any moment!) So, to actually 'change' something from what is, to what you find more comfortable (the usual basis of 'desires' and the 'thoughts' of 'will' and 'free-will/choice'), you would have to alter the entire Universe (think Butterfly Effect)!
What an egoic/godlike ability! And just for your own comfort! You might have to ignorantly wipe out 17 galaxies and 486 civilizations so you can 'create' that new chair...
Get the drift?
Thank GOD! that it is impossible for us to 'change' anything!!!
(Any more than a telescope can have 'creative powers' over what it is pointed at!)

Religiously speaking;
The 'belief' in 'free-will/choice' is the physical manifestation of the one and only sin, Pride! (Insanity!)
It is saying, in essence; "Let MY Will B Done! Now! Abracadabra in Jesus' name (or whatever magic...)... Ah-me!"
Believing that we can 'change' the Universe, that which 'Is', for what usually amounts to 'personal comfort', is quite the ego masturbation!!

The actor in this case is Prakrti if you do. You had nothing to do with it.

What (and when) we do or say, is a moment to moment manifestation of what we are.
There are no choices, no real decisions, no 'free (anything, much less) will'!

a reply to: namelesss

Do you think free will might be our nature moving us, or do we have control over awareness to the point we can overcome desire to act?

Ultimately, the COMPLETE context of anything is the entire Universe! (at any moment!) So, to actually 'change' something from what is, to what you find more comfortable (the usual basis of 'desires' and the 'thoughts' of 'will' and 'free-will/choice'), you would have to alter the entire Universe (think Butterfly Effect)! What an egoic/godlike ability! And just for your own comfort! You might have to ignorantly wipe out 17 galaxies and 486 civilizations so you can 'create' that new chair...

Is this possible in this place, given our ignorance of so many facts? I think we are here to gain awareness of our state apart from our higher nature. While many people claim access to the higher nature, I think this is only true by the fact we do not control our actions. I think nature controls our actions for our own benefit.

Did you read before answering, or act by your nature?

originally posted by: DayAfterTomorrow
a reply to: namelesss

Do you think free will might be our nature moving us,

Of course!
When things go our way, we naturally take credit. When things are painful, we blame.
That is what ego does.
The 'free-will' is the illusion, not only that there is a 'you' other than a 'figment of mind', but that this 'you' has imagined Godlike powers of 'creation' and 'Universe juggling'!
Just egoic vanity, Pride.

or do we have control over awareness to the point we can overcome desire to act?

'Control' is another one. We have all the 'control' that we think that we have.
And when we stop thinking, there goes the 'us' that believed in 'controlling' anything.
I was ready to punch in 50 seconds on the nuke, but the finger pressed 35, naturally.
That was, of course, the proper setting, despite my (vain) 'intent'.

"Ultimately, the COMPLETE context of anything is the entire Universe! (at any moment!) So, to actually 'change' something from what is, to what you find more comfortable (the usual basis of 'desires' and the 'thoughts' of 'will' and 'free-will/choice'), you would have to alter the entire Universe (think Butterfly Effect)! What an egoic/godlike ability! And just for your own comfort! You might have to ignorantly wipe out 17 galaxies and 486 civilizations so you can 'create' that new chair..."

Is this possible in this place, given our ignorance of so many facts?

'Facts' are just 'beliefs'.
Science and philosophy give us 'theories', and tentative, at that, not 'facts'.

"New study of the brain shows that facts and beliefs are processed in exactly the same way."

www.newsweek.com...

I think we are here to gain awareness of our state apart from our higher nature. While many people claim access to the higher nature, I think this is only true by the fact we do not control our actions. I think nature controls our actions for our own benefit.

In the make-believe world of 'action/motion', we are features of the Universe, not separate from.
When you walk, your balls swing. Not because they decided to (even though that's what the right one thinks), but because their Universe/Nature is walking.

Did you read before answering, or act by your nature?

Yes! *__-

a reply to: DayAfterTomorrow

RE: " Can the design of the universe be so precise, that your every thought and choice in action can be managed to the point of moving you to act from beginning to end? "

I'm sure you are aware of the lack of precision from quantum mechanics. If you believe in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics then every possible quantum state is realized over an infinite number of space-time dimensions. In that way of think, the answer is not only yes, but every possible choice is played out in every possible way over essentially an infinite amount of time with absolutely perfect precision.

You do realize the whole idea of free-will is a delusion. We do not have any control over the menu of our choices. So unless we have omnipotent powers, what we think of as free-will is really not free-will at all since we have no control over the menu.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Actually, the many world's theory gives us the only possibility of having free will. As nameless said, free will is the ability to do 'otherwise'. In light of the many world's theory, we find that free will entails the ability of consciously moving from universe 52a, where Joe eats a bagel for breakfast, to universe 52q, where he eats a steak and eggs sandwich. This would also mean overcoming the force of 'prakrti' as op introduce to us, because that prakrti would state that, once 52a has been initiated, it must be completed fully. Prakrti would be the driving force that keeps that universe intact and recognizable due to the unshiftable events in them. Free will would be the ability to step outside this and choose otherwise from nearly unlimited options.

Since I was driven to reply I shall now reply to op as well. If you define prakrti as ones true nature, and state this as unavoidable. How can you then distinguish ones nature from one's self? Or the self for that matter, from the agent?

Given that I believe we have the free will such as I've stated, (given that I've seen it in action) my answer is yes it is possible to resist the inevitable. I have, far too many times, felt the weight of my destiny pass by right over my head.

a reply to: DayAfterTomorrow

I think we are here to gain awareness of our state apart from our higher nature. While many people claim access to the higher nature, I think this is only true by the fact we do not control our actions. I think nature controls our actions for our own benefit.

Who thinks? The post quoted says 'I think...........' three times - but really thought just happens/appears/arises and it is assumed to be done by someone. But it is not done by someone - no one is thinking ever.
Can the next thought be known prior to it's arising?
The video below will either be clicked or not clicked/heard or not heard- there is no one in there choosing!

The illusion of freewill is paper thin as evidenced by my failure to your challenge.

You have free will if you can demonstrate the ability to act independent of your environment or external stimuli. Since there is a difference between your mind, and you (the perceiver of it), it is also external to you. So you must also be able to act independent of that as well.

Freewill is to act, not react. But everything we do is a reaction to external stimuli, predetermined by our genetic make up and our brain, with its psychological and cognitive conditioning. So to have free will, you must be able to act independent of those factors which you alone, are not the sole author of. You can not.

For instance, pick a number from 1 to 10. If your attention is subtle enough, you can see that the brain has given you this number, out of thin air, before you are able to speak it. You are not consciously aware of the mechanism by which this number has been generated for you. So to prove you have free will, pick and speak a number that is not given to you by your mind.

If you can only do that which is sourced from the mind, which is fundamentally not you, then you are not the doer of free will, the Universe is. If you can't discern the difference between yourself and your mind and , instead, identify yourself as your mind (which grammatically infers they are in fact two different things) then individual freewill only exists as an illusion. If, however, you can discern the difference, then freewill exists as an expression of the Universal whole and not the individual.

a reply to: dfnj2015

As free will goes, paying attention to awareness is important. It demonstrates what is hidden in the OP. Did you read it? It supports your comments, but for another reason. Read the of to spot the issue.

a reply to: LucidWarrior

It's so good to know you actually read the instructions. I wondered if anyone would. Since our nature is often toward out base nature, we can overcome with effort. So too, we often shrink in weakness, giving our will to others. I think there to freedom is mastering both. True freedom is neutral positive. Mastery by ruling self.

a reply to: Visitor2012

I loved your answer. It matches the premise. You read it!

originally posted by: DayAfterTomorrow
a reply to: Visitor2012

I loved your answer. It matches the premise. You read it!

Thank you DayAfterTomorrow, and great topic!

originally posted by: DayAfterTomorrow
Since our nature is often toward out base nature, we can overcome with effort. So too, we often shrink in weakness, giving our will to others. I think there to freedom is mastering both. True freedom is neutral positive. Mastery by ruling self.

Who can rule self? Do you see that this makes two?
If freedom is required then all that has to be done is to see that all is happening by itself. Not that anything has to be 'done' - there isn't anyone separate that can do!!
All apparent 'doing' is done.

a reply to: DayAfterTomorrow

The thing is that there is a belief that there is a 'you' that can act. The 'you' that is appearing is just part of the appearance - All that appears is being done - it is like a movie appearing on a screen. No one can change what appears on the screen - like when going to the cinema.
The true 'you' is the screen on which the movie appears.
When it is realised that 'you' are the screen (and not any separate thing appearing on the screen) is there 'anyone' who needs to be controlled or freed?

All physical events are considered to be manifestations of the evolution of prakṛti, or primal nature (from which all physical bodies are derived). Each sentient being or Jiva is a fusion of puruṣa and prakṛti, whose soul/puruṣa is limitless and unrestricted by its physical body. Samsāra or bondage arises when the puruṣa does not have the discriminate knowledge and so is misled as to its own identity, confusing itself with the Ego/ahamkāra, which is actually an attribute of prakṛti. The spirit is liberated when the discriminate knowledge of the difference between conscious puruṣa and unconscious prakṛti is realized by the puruṣa.

en.wikipedia.org...
Bondage (non freedom) is just a misunderstanding - a misplacement of what you/reality actually is.
All that appears just happens - it is appearing on the screen that you are. The screen cannot alter what appears on it - so you are already free from having to control or do anything. It is so simple!!

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Although we cannot change the sun from shining, the laws of nature from affecting or the moon in orbit, we can bring order to our local system. In all cases, your house does not clean itself. Your will determines the order of the house.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

All that appears just happens - it is appearing on the screen that you are. The screen cannot alter what appears on it - so you are already free from having to control or do anything. It is so simple!!

We have the freedom to act by quality of action, which is the only choice. Suffer if you fail. Freedom if you succeed.

We also have the choice to not act. Before traveling to another state today, I had to set my house in order, take care of my dogs and work a good 8 hours to make sure we were ready to leave for 4 days. I had the choice to sit and watch TV or rest. None of it would have been done apart from my attachments, which is also a choice. By attachments, I mean responsibility, but not my mind's stress about those attachments. Non-attachment is not detaching from the responsibility, but acting with nobility and freedom from the worry accompanying them. I always have the freedom to manage my awareness of any situation. While I left my house in order, I could have also left it in disarray. Attachment comes from leaving work undone. As Krishna would say, "I am never without action." It's the point of the noble act and noble voice. Only in the WAY do we gain freedom of choice and thought.

Eight-Fold Path

originally posted by: DayAfterTomorrow
a reply to: Itisnowagain

All that appears just happens - it is appearing on the screen that you are. The screen cannot alter what appears on it - so you are already free from having to control or do anything. It is so simple!!

We have the freedom to act by quality of action, which is the only choice. Suffer if you fail. Freedom if you succeed.

Suffer if you think you can do anything!!
All is happening and the true 'you' only witnesses. The true 'you' is never not free. 'Your' true place is behind the camera - never in front. If thought says that you appear and it is believed there is suffering from a delusion.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: DayAfterTomorrow
a reply to: Itisnowagain

All that appears just happens - it is appearing on the screen that you are. The screen cannot alter what appears on it - so you are already free from having to control or do anything. It is so simple!!

We have the freedom to act by quality of action, which is the only choice. Suffer if you fail. Freedom if you succeed.

Suffer if you think you can do anything!!
All is happening and the true 'you' only witnesses. The true 'you' is never not free. 'Your' true place is behind the camera - never in front. If thought says that you appear and it is believed there is suffering from a delusion.

Intent is by design. Creation has a purpose benefiting all beings. Freedom comes when the reflection in the image is complete. I will just keep with the original statement. You have a choice over the quality of the experience. You also have a choice to move to completion before the end begins again. The quality of this transition is entirely dependent (faithfulness) on the quality of this experience and what is gained by it.

a reply to: Itisnowagain