Is this what the 4chan "alien" is distracting us from?

a reply to: Reverbs

The 6 mile debris field agrees with that.

Because of that one fact and others the official story is incoherent ...You just can't have it both ways unless you ignore all the evidence .

originally posted by: Bigburgh
a reply to: Zaphod58

Good afternoon,
Is this the correct aircraft in question?
www.aviation-accidents.net...

Yes, that's the one.

As far as conspiracy theory connections to 9/11, I am finding a few things that struck people as suspicious:

• The total number of people who died in the crash of Flight 587 -- 265 victims (5 killed on the ground) -- is the exact same number of people who died on all four flights on 9/11. I believe I read the same total number of crew, too, but I didn't verify it. I guess the theory, for some, is that there were no passengers on the 9/11 planes that crashed because they may have overpowered the hijackers (so that wasn't a risk the *real* perpetrators wanted to take)...and there's the theory the planes were remote controlled. And there was also speculation that two of the planes hijacked on 9/11 landed in Cleveland where the passengers were allegedly seen taken into federal custody. Information on the victims of Flight 587 is minimal, in contrast to the victims on the 9/11 planes. An estimated 90% of the victims of Flight 587 were Domincans/Dominican-Americans. The passenger list of names reflects that and some people feel many of the names seemed contrived.

So...you get the idea.

• There is also the timing and location....two months after 9/11 in NYC. The Richard Reid incident (aka the Shoe Bomber), happened a month after Flight 587 crashed.

• Many witnesses reported hearing two explosions and gave statements that contradict the official theory that the tail fin falling off, due to the pilot's aggressive rudder-use, was what started the chain of events that led to the crash.

• The NTSB were very quick to tell the public they did not suspect terrorism despite the witness accounts of hearing explosions.

• The same Pakistani student from Utrecht High School that reportedly told a teacher that the WTC towers were going to fall BEFORE 9/11, also reportedly told her there would be a plane crash on 11/12/2001.

***

I don't mean to derail the thread with Flight 587, but I honestly didn't remember the crash and find it to be so interesting.

I wish I was able to search for info on the Shoe Bomber plane, but I can't find the tail number. It was also an American Airlines flight. I wonder if there is the same Wilmington connection.

a reply to: Bigburgh

Yeah. The First Officer had a history of excessive rudder use, and had gone through several simulator and training sessions.

With the Airbus rudder system, the faster the aircraft is traveling, the less rudder input is required to achieve full rudder travel. At the speeds they were traveling, heb only needed to input about half rudder or less to move the physical rudder full over. By inputting full rudder pedal, he slammed the rudder to the stops, which pushed the nose over. He then pushed the pedal full in the other direction to correct. From that point, the aircraft was doomed.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

They were quick to say it wasn't terrorism because of the method of breakup. Only the vertical fin of the aircraft was found any significant distance from the impact area. And a simple visual inspection of the fin when recovered showed that the failure wasn't caused by an external force.

They also had video of the aircraft that showed it spinning, and the moment that the engine struts failed and the engines separated just before impact. All that, combined with the radar data that showed the separation distance from the Japan Airlines flight that created the wake turbulence they flew into, immediately pointed to an accident.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: MotherMayEye

They were quick to say it wasn't terrorism because of the method of breakup. Only the vertical fin of the aircraft was found any significant distance from the impact area. And a simple visual inspection of the fin when recovered showed that the failure wasn't caused by an external force.

They also had video of the aircraft that showed it spinning, and the moment that the engine struts failed and the engines separated just before impact. All that, combined with the radar data that showed the separation distance from the Japan Airlines flight that created the wake turbulence they flew into, immediately pointed to an accident.

I understand what investigators determined and why, but, none-the-less, there does exist disputes to the official determinations by witnesses and other commercial airline pilots.

ETA: For example, this witness' story

a reply to: Power_Semi

I agree with your post..it's part of the reason I quit ATS years ago

For what it's worth, and to set the record straight..
Before I started the 4chan alien picture thread, I tried to start a 9/11 thread based on what one of the posters on 4chan (who supposedly lack any intelligence)..had already theorised about the alien picture being a distraction to hide something posted about 9/11.

I wasn't allowed to start a new thread on 9/11 here because apparently I need special privileges to do that ..so I just posted a message in one of the existing 9/11 threads about the possible cover story of the alien photo. I did this BEFORE I started the thread on the picture. Also if anyone reads my OP in that thread I did state there was already a suspision about a 9/11 angle as well as the Italian food angle etc etc etc.

My instinct was that the alien pic was a distraction but I still figured it was worth a thread to dig into it...obviously. Plus my way of thinking is that more posters would have more motivation to chase the alien picture than to rehash 9/11 AGAIN..but by chasing the picture they might stumble across links to who might have been posting the initial fakes etc, which might have led back to a paid shill etc..and uncovered any hidden objective...such as 9/11

In fact the whole theory and screen cap, about a airframe being stored at Roswell was posted on 4chan and not on ATS to begin with. So all of this, including the distraction theory, ALL originated from 4chan posters.

Now I'm not saying one site is better than another and obviously 4chan has a bad reputation for idiots and hoaxers and at the end of the day the 9/11 angle could be just as much of a hoax as the alien picture. I notified this site simply because it's a conspiracy theory site and people will invest time and effort digging..where as on 4chan they typically won't..although they certainly did with the Italian flat bread..but as with here the mods banned those discussions.

Plus for whatever reason threads get derailed repeatedly over there anytime certain issues are discussed..so to be fair anyone who does try to dig into things gets pushed out of threads. I know it happens here too but it does seeem more widespread over there.

If anything all of this could be a win win for both sites as I know frustrated investigators joined this site due to being stifled at 4chan and now some ATS will keep an eye over there from time to time and it should help reinvigorate this site with new ideas and opinions.

Just saying.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Witness statements are almost always taken with a grain of salt, and one of these shows why.

"First I heard a big explosion. Then I saw flames come out from behind the plane. And then a whole wing with the engine fell off."

We know that the wing didn't fall off though. The engines separated, but the wings were attached at the time of impact. The CVR also didn't record any sounds of events prior to the fin separation.

I have yet to see an accident report that isn't disputed by someone, or a group of people.

Is this a possible reason for the 'panic' at 4chan? or maybe that message was already posted here and I missed that part.

A post at 4chan on the 22nd Feb, supposedly removed.

24489 Taken Aprox 24 miles north west of Luke Airforce Base Phoenix Az. Lab H4C



files.abovetopsecret.com...

So has that plane actually been moved, and maybe recently to near a military base or other, or a scrap yard nearby, and why would that cause a flap unless the plane is an object of interest to the law or the military, or should not be moved...whatever?

So, I have looked again and see redye had a screenshot of a 4chan poster passing the same message as above onto others, in reponse to a post from PlasticWizard who had the written copy in his post, but no graphic. Here's redye's link,
files.abovetopsecret.com... and clearly a much later message.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Information on the victims of Flight 587 is minimal, in contrast to the victims on the 9/11 planes. An estimated 90% of the victims of Flight 587 were Domincans/Dominican-Americans. The passenger list of names reflects that and some people feel many of the names seemed contrived.

I should add that information on the victims of Flight 587 is not just scant, it is incomplete and sometimes inconsistent.

For example, the day of the crash of Flight 587, there was a series of very dramatic photos of a woman who lost a three year old granddaughter in the crash. The photos filled the news, that day and the days following:

The crash of an American Airlines flight shortly after take off in Queens brought pain and grief to this Caribbean city, as desperate, crying relatives streamed into Las Americas Jose Francisco PeM-qa Gomez International Airport .

"It can't be. No, it can't be," screamed Ana Rosa Hierro, 49, as she collapsed and was carried past television cameras to an ambulance, surrounded by crying relatives.

Hierro was expecting her 3-year-old granddaughter, Yoely Mejias, for a first visit. The girl was being escorted by a neighbor from New York because her mother couldn't fly.

Link

AND

Forty-nine-year old Ana Rosa Hierro (2nd R) is escorted out of the Jose Francisco Pena Gomez Airport November 12, 2001 in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic after learning her three-year-old grand daughter was aboard American Airlines Flight 587...

Link


HOWEVER, when the official victim list was released, it didn't include a 'Yoely Mejias.'

Link to final passenger list.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Witness statements are almost always taken with a grain of salt, and one of these shows why.

"First I heard a big explosion. Then I saw flames come out from behind the plane. And then a whole wing with the engine fell off."

We know that the wing didn't fall off though. The engines separated, but the wings were attached at the time of impact. The CVR also didn't record any sounds of events prior to the fin separation.

I have yet to see an accident report that isn't disputed by someone, or a group of people.

I get it.

But, again, that wasn't the only witness that disputed the tail falling off first.

Here's another: Link
And another: Link

I give all sides grains of salt...including the investigators who were not witnesses.

a reply to: Arnie123

4chan doesn't have the intellectual capacity that drives ATS. I'm not at all surprised one of our members would spot something between the lines.

This is completely untrue, 4chan is literally dominated by intelligent people.

There are extremely well thought-out posts all the time on that website, and the concept of "spontaneous order" is alive and well there.

Having a sense of humor, and a reputation for being "the internet hate machine," isn't evidence of a lack of intelligence or insight.

4chan simply ruffles the feathers of the unintelligent and arrogant.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

The mods on the politically incorrect bored have certainly shifted in their moderation of the board. The alien related threads are being closed on the basis that they don't conform to /pol/'s community, that is, they aren't related to politics. Which doesn't make any sense when the posts themselves are literally dealing with the politics surrounding the images--at the same time that a bazillion threads are being created and commented on without moderation, that have zero to do with politics.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

4Chan I hear a lot about this place but i've never been to it. Sounds interesting.

a reply to: smurfy

The only place near Luke it could be moved to is Goodyear, and that's south of where the base is, and a lot closer than 20 miles.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

I know that wasn't the only one that disputed it, that was just the one that I chose.

The huge difference between investigators, and eyewitnesses, is that investigators have access to the FDR and CVR, which doesn't include speculation on what happened, but includes actual facts of what occurred when. Eyewitnesses are hugely unreliable, and you can find four eyewitnesses that will give you four different versions of what happened, even in a straightforward accident. Whereas the recorders don't speculate, or make mistakes, they simply record data of what's occurring at any given moment.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: smurfy

The only place near Luke it could be moved to is Goodyear, and that's south of where the base is, and a lot closer than 20 miles.

Right, and thanks.
I haven't had the chance yet to look for this place....the 309th AMARG is located at the Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona, while that area seems to be more of a military mothballing place.

a reply to: Zaphod58

And, yet, there is dispute to be found there, too.

Link

How did they arrive at a tail separation at this time? One answer is a mysterious clue caught on the cockpit voice recorder (CVR). The NTSB transcript describes a "loud bang" at 9:15:58.5 AM.

Ever since releasing this transcript, the NTSB has claimed the Loud Bang was the sound of the vertical tail structure experiencing catastrophic failure and separating from the aircraft. However, this claim has not been supported with a detailed audio analysis of the event or a reproduction of the sound on a test aircraft.

To the contrary, the NTSB's Sound Spectrum report stated that no sounds on the CVR could be associated with the separation of the tail or rudder.

Is the NTSB trying to make the facts fit their hypothesis rather than the opposite? That is what a number of aviation professionals and concerned citizens suspect.

In fact, significant evidence points to vertical tail separation occurring much later than the sound of the Loud Bang. Some of that evidence includes the location of the vertical tail in the Bay and other debris as well as a tollbooth video. This video shows what appears to be smoke trailing from the aircraft before the time of the Loud Bang.

Amazingly, the NTSB has yet to take a close look at the original tollbooth video in their search for clues or explanations. The original video remains in the possession of the FBI, which has failed to release it under Freedom of Information Act requests from U.S.Read. Perhaps most disturbing – the FBI hasn't even released a digital, uncompressed copy of this video to the NTSB for their investigation. Nor has the FBI submitted a report of their analysis of the original tape.

The NTSB hasn't asked for the original video either. They used a second or third-generation VHS copy of this video (provided by the FBI) for their superficial video analysis. Of the two video forensic experts contacted by U.S.Read, both said that any conclusions drawn from these copies are immediately discredited since the NTSB wasn't working from the original.

Then of course there are statements from many eyewitnesses to the crash, some of whom are trained observers like policemen and firemen. They reported seeing the vertical tail separate, but only after they saw smoke and flames on the aircraft.

Whenever the vertical tail separated, all hydraulic lines to the rudder would have been severed. This would have created a repetitive audible alarm in the cockpit (known as a Level 3 warning). No such alarm was heard after 9:15:58.5. It was first heard nine seconds later, at 9:16:07.55.

If, as it seems most likely, the vertical tail separated several seconds after 9:15:58.5, the NTSB has a growing list of questions that ought to be answered in their upcoming final report. And there are a growing number of citizens who will expect considerable answers. Weighing on the minds of many is – if that Loud Bang wasn't the separation of the vertical tail, what was it?

a reply to: smurfy

Goodyear and Pinal are both civilian storage areas. Pinal is between Tucson and Eloy, heading towards Phoenix, but it's over 100 miles from Pinal to Luke. Goodyear, is at the same exit from Interstate 10 as Luke, but it's on the other side of the interstate from the base.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

And exactly what role did he play in the investigation again? He may have been experienced in the field, and have done all kinds of work in the industry, but he wasn't part of the investigation. There was no dispute in the investigation, by the investigators. There was dispute with the report, by someone outside the investigation.

a reply to: Zaphod58

He reviewed what the NTSB reported from their investigation, the CVR transcript, and considered the eyewitness reports.

His bio reads: "Brett Hoffstadt is one of the industry experts assisting in U.S.Read's Flight 587 coverage. Mr. Hoffstadt began working in the aerospace industry 14 years ago. He has two degrees in aerospace engineering and specializes in aerodynamics and aircraft performance. He is currently employed by an international engineering analysis company and previously worked at Boeing as a Technical Specialist in Aerodynamics. Mr. Hoffstadt also has professional experience in structural design, composite materials, propulsion, flight simulation, and flight testing. "

What good are investigative reports and findings if peers don't review them?

Sorry, I think there is room to criticize and scrutinize NTSB.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

I never said there wasn't room to scrutinize them, did I. But without being part of the investigation, he didn't see every single piece of data that they had. He was reviewing the data that was in the report, and he disagreed with it. NTSB reports don't get peer reviewed like scientific papers do. They're open for a comment phase, but without something that radically changes the data, they're rarely changed, even when people that are experts review them.

There may have been bits of data that they reviewed, and tossed out for one reason or another, that he didn't see. The investigators are the only ones that see everything. They actually had their hands on the parts of the aircraft, and actually saw the fracture patterns, and did the actual investigation.

Still isn't disagreement by investigators.