Is Jesus God, or is the whole trinity thing bunk?

Listen, first thing I would like to declare is that the I believe in the trinity... okay now that we have that out of the way, i have found that i have been getting into more arguements recently about whether or not Jesus was God. So i figured we could have a good debate about this. Hopefully we will all be a little more knowledgable, assuming this thread actually takes off. So, what is everyones oppions.

I wrote this somewhere else, but it should do some justice here:

As for the "trinitarian" dogma, well, it's exactly that: DOGMA. It's never once mentioned in the Bible or in any Judeo-Christian scriptures: Trinity comes from the latin word Trias, and if we find this word in the english or latin versions of the Bible, please let me know. It should also be noted that "homoousia" -- is contradictory and clashes with Biblical teachings of a 'one' god: "Hear O Israel! The Lord our God is One God" (Deut 6:4),. Now, you'll bring up this verse, "Let us make man in our image", well, that's fine and dandy, but that's reffering to Elohim and the fact that Genesis has two concurrent creation stories, which tend to contradict aswell. The Trinitarian belief was coined by one of the early Church writers, Tertullian, among many other vices he begate; and this dogma was not formulated untill the The second Ecumenical Council in 381 A.D which ended the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed" with: "and the son."

Deep

[edit on 31-1-2005 by ZeroDeep]

well what about such quotes as this from John 20:24-29

Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples said to him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." THen he said to THomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands and bring your hand and put it into my side and do not be unbelieving, but believe." Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my GOD!" Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."

or how about this from John 14:5-9

Thomas said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him." Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father?'"

I think those kind of are saying he is God, as in the first one he calls Jesus God in his prescence, and if it were not true, would Jesus not correct him?

I believe in the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Ryan,

Do the original Greek texts state "GOD" ? From what I have researched, it was simply edited in during the reign of the Catholic Church; I'm quite adamant in believing the Trinitarian belief is nothing but dogma, however. I hardly doubt 'Jesus' was the son of God or if the man even existed --Amadeus had an interesting theory which I found quite romantic.

I have to jet, i'll post when I get home.

Deep

i dont know how you can doubt if he ever existed. The man had a brother who wrote about him, not to mention there are 4 gospels in the bible that are first hand accounts of Jesus. And to top that off, 3 of them were written together, they were Mathew, Mark, and Luke. However, John was written seperately from the other 3. That speaks volumes considering how ACCURATE they all are with each other. And not to mention it isn't only christianity that believes Jesus existed, don't forget Islam believes it too, i also believe that Judaism believes he existed, but was not who he claimed to be. Don't ever listen to Amadeus, he would alter things around to suite his needs. For example he once said Jesus taught defiance because of the quote when he tells them if you are hit on the cheek to turn your other cheek in defiance. However, what he left out was that he also said follow all laws given by ceaser as this is his land. So, Amadeus basically claimed something very contradictory towards itself. Also, Amadeus would have you believe that he attacked Roman soldiers on the Passover, or was it Pentecost, either way it was one of those. He said this because they had weapons, well the truth be told is that they had to have weapons as the roads were filled with thiefs and murderers, so they needed something to defend themselves with as they went from town to town to preach Jesus' word. So, essentially Amadeus was full of Crap, and was just out to get Jesus, but Jesus will give him something to remember when the time comes

This is a poster who came across this website looking for something that i think has a lot of meaning, and has great knowledge, too bad he left.


www.abovetopsecret.com...#

It is G_S i think is his name.

First off I'll say I do not believe in the trinity, I believe in one God. Here is the simplest way I can explain my beliefs in a single God. First off God the Father is the creator. He created man and earth as explained in Genesis. Now those of us who believe in Christianity believe that God is a spirit. Now according to the Old Testament a person would have to sacrifice a sheep each year for their sins. But this just forgave sins for the year and the following year another sheep would be sacrificed. Now since God is a spirit and could never come to earth as a spirit and be sacrificed as the last sacrifice for our sins he would have to assume the flesh of a man, thus creating Jesus Christ the savor. Ok so now God has flesh and bone and can die, as he did. Later he rose from the dead and made a promise to his followers that he would send a comforter, the Holy Spirit. So how does one receive the Holy Spirit?

Well according to Acts 2:37-39

[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The Holy Spirit is nothing other then God/Jesus Christ’s spirit residing inside of us if we accept it.

Now you may quote the scriptures in Mathew 28:16-19 that says,

[16] Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Ok as you notice it says name, singular, not names. In Acts it tells us to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. So in conclusion we have God the Father (the spirit), Jesus Christ the Savor (the man of flesh and bone) and the Holy Spirit/Ghost (the comforter, the spirit of God/Jesus Christ's promised gift to mankind).



[edit on 31-1-2005 by Cebu]

[edit on 31-1-2005 by Cebu]

[edit on 31-1-2005 by Cebu]

But Cebu, Jesus referred to God numerous times as well, as if to another person. You can't expect Jesus to have been praying to himself, can you? Also, if Jesus was God, he could have easily forgiven man for his sins, why the weird complication of recreating himself as a man and sacrificing himself?
I honestly don't understand the concept of trinity. Any Christian you ask will vehemently defend that they are practicing monothiesm, and say the the trinity is 3 faces of the same God. But then these "three faces" divided and one came to earth in the flesh as Jesus, and Jesus apparently treated the other "face" as an entirely different being, praying to God, talking to God, healing in the name of God, and claiming a message from God.
If there is any Christian well versed in the concept of trinity, I would be grateful if they came forward and explained it.

Originally posted by babloyi
But Cebu, Jesus referred to God numerous times as well, as if to another person. You can't expect Jesus to have been praying to himself, can you?

babloyi I can understand where you think that Jesus was praying to himself. What you fail to see is that Jesus Christ was a man, flesh and bone. His cries while on the cross of "my God, my God why has thou forsaken me" was the flesh and bone crying out. He was shrouded in flesh and blood like you and I. I would cry out also if nailed to a cross.

Also, if Jesus was God, he could have easily forgiven man for his sins, why the weird complication of recreating himself as a man and sacrificing himself?

But God didn't forgive men for their sins prior to the crucifixion. The sins of the past were covered in blood from the sacrifices of sheep and pushed forward. Jesus Christ came to die not only for the sins of the past, but for us here in the future. He was the supreme sacrifice. Prior to the crucifixion there was no forgiveness, just a covering of blood.

While I don't pretend to know everything about religion or the bible I will tell you that I was raised Pentacostal and attended church 4 times a week from the time I was very small till I was about 18. I'm not a practicing christian now, but I still strongly believe in what I was taught and what I learned from my own searching. Either way I'm just happy to not be confused about wether or not I believe that there is a trinity or just one God and his name is Jesus Christ.

This is exactly the dilaemma chistians face:

We never DIRECTLY recieved word from Jesus, all we have is 2nd hand reports by Matt, Mark et al. some of these were written some 60 years after the events with Jesus.

No for a guy that was supposed be have been going round delcaring love and equality for all... to then step up and say oh btw.. my dad is GOD is a bit out of character... i mean it like a kid declaring in a playground: my dad is a police officer! I would like to have heard Jesus say that HIMSELF before i believe it.

In fact the Jews and the Islamics just think the guy was a clever dude, or a prophet.

The fact that all we have are 2nd hand sources makes me think this is one of the biggest misquotes ever.
Jesus' name was taken and misrepresented in order to subjugate, pacify and brainwash the barbaric masses of europe.


[edit on 31/1/2005 by Corinthas]

I look at the Trinity as a way that has been used to give an understanding of God for millenia. It's not even exclusive to Christianity and can be found in religions that pre-date it.

Basically, the Trinity is not three separate individuals - even though it may be referred to with three separate names.
Look at it this way: H2O can be found in three separate forms - Ice, Steam and Liquid. But it is all basically water. The Trinity works the same way. Each name is describing the same basic thing but it gives us a different way of looking at it.

To me, what it is basically saying is that there are three types of substance that make up the same element without being any different other than in the way that we can perceive them. And perception is what it is all about:

The Father is the be all and end all, but without the Son, we would have a hard time understanding Him or even recognising Him. Without the Holy Spirit, the Son would have had a hard time passing the message across about the Father. Without the Father there is no Holy Spirit.
All rely on each other to give us an understanding and all three are interlocked to form one. The Trinity shouldn't be viewed in a list form, it should be written as a circle. If one were out of the loop the other two are defunct as the circle will be broken. Together, they all form the circle which is God.

A lot of anti-Christians will use the Trinity to point out that Christianity is a form of polytheism. This simply isn't true if it is viewed as above. All religions recognise that God contains many elements and they are therefore no different. Christianity has just taken older religious thought, narrowed those elements down to three and concentrated on them for easier understanding.

So what you are saying is that Jesus is God in flesh, The Holy spirit is the "word" of God, and the Father is God Himself? You say that it should be viewed as a circle and not a triangle? Does that mean that there is not one that is more important than the other?
I have heard the H2O analogy elsewhere also. I still don't understand it. H2O cannot be water, ice and steam simultanaeously. Jesus WAS on earth, and he DID pray to SOMEONE. If Jesus is considered God, and there is a God that he was praying to, that would make at least 2 seperate Gods simultanaeously.
Another thing I don't understand is in what sense Jesus is considered divine. Is he the son of God, or God Himself? If Jesus is considered divine and worshipped, what about this "holy spirit"? Is it worshipped as well? In what form, is it the Bible?

"Hi there, I am Satan. My goal is to deceive as many as I can. When God threw me out, I became angry. I want revenge. So, how can I successfully deceive those who wish to serve God? Easy! He says that he will be the only one worshipped, but I can't introduce a new god - people aren't that dumb. Oh, I know, what if I could get them to think that they are still worshipping God while worshipping someone else too? Hmmm, yeah. Maybe I can take the Christ that God sent, make others belive he is equal to God, then worship them both? Yeah, that will work. So what Christ prayed to God and so what if is sitting NEXT to God, I bet I can make people accept Christ AS God. Oh yeah, that will do nicely."

He is out deceiving. Thanks to man's ego, too many of us think we're to smart to be deceived. Too many forget the part - "Seek and you will find". Too many just stop, thinking that they have already found.

Originally posted by babloyi
So what you are saying is that Jesus is God in flesh, The Holy spirit is the "word" of God, and the Father is God Himself? You say that it should be viewed as a circle and not a triangle? Does that mean that there is not one that is more important than the other?

To me, Jesus being God in the Flesh doesn't really matter when we look at the Trinity as it's purpose is to serve as a lesson.
Referring to godservant's post, he may feel that Christ is inferior to the Father. He equates the Father as being God on His own. That's fine, I don't see a problem with that. It just means that the circle may be weaker at a certain point, but it is still a circle.

As I've already stated, the Trinity is not a Christian concept. I am not trying to tell you that you should worship Christ as God or even worship anything at all. I'm merely pointing out an interpretation of how the Trinity could have evolved. If you take a look at ancient Egyptian religion you will see a comparison with Osiris, Isis and Horus.

When you read the Bible, remember that you have to interpret it for yourself. Personally I like the story. It doesn't matter to me if Jesus actually physically existed or not. It's the moral in the tale that matters to me. That moral gives him an existence to me personally although I certainly would have problems referring to myself as a "Christian".

There are many different kinds of interpretation. Some say that Jesus was the Son of God and was God in the flesh. Others say that he was the Son of God but not God. Yet others say that he was a prophet. Others a rabbi or teacher. Nobody can tell you what he actually was because there is so much disagreement. What you have to do is make your own mind up. Only you can do this. If anyone says "you are being deceived" treat them with the same suspicion that you would the person that they accuse. Many will claim that others are lying but only because they may be lying or ignorant themselves.

Finally, your statement regarding water, ice and steam not being able to exist simultaeneously is only true because we are talking about something physical. When we talk about God we are talking about something beyond the physical. But even then, the fact is that all three substances make water and there are instances where all three may be present in the same area. They may also be in different form so that you can perceive them differently for a while but they are all the same thing underneath that perception.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Ryan,

Do the original Greek texts state "GOD" ? .

I have to jet, i'll post when I get home.

Deep

Not to but in here, but the original texts do refer to God.

Don't forget that there is more than one way to believe in the trinity.

Oneness, and trinitarian....though I do think they believe in the same thing and argue because each one thinks they are better than the other. Though it is not particularly relevant to the trinity in my opinion, there are numerous references to God in the bible as a plural. Even in explanation from christians, that these either do not exist (50%), or they do and supprt a trinity (50%), there is still a lot left up in the air. Some say that plural references to God actually signify his absolute power and such. Like the word "Elohim" (Gods) which has been eddited by christianity to mean God who is really cool. The problem is that you can change single words if you try hard, but its even harder to eliminate all plural references such as them, theirs, and they.

The reality behind this all is that the old testament is a mix of texts from different cultures and religions. Some believed in more than one God.

[edit on 1/31/2005 by Seapeople]

Originally posted by babloyi
But Cebu, Jesus referred to God numerous times as well, as if to another person. You can't expect Jesus to have been praying to himself, can you? Also, if Jesus was God, he could have easily forgiven man for his sins, why the weird complication of recreating himself as a man and sacrificing himself?
I honestly don't understand the concept of trinity. Any Christian you ask will vehemently defend that they are practicing monothiesm, and say the the trinity is 3 faces of the same God. But then these "three faces" divided and one came to earth in the flesh as Jesus, and Jesus apparently treated the other "face" as an entirely different being, praying to God, talking to God, healing in the name of God, and claiming a message from God.
If there is any Christian well versed in the concept of trinity, I would be grateful if they came forward and explained it.

I could help you out with that one mate. You see Jesus wasn't just God in the flesh, he was also 100% Man. Therefore he is the Godman. Jesus affirmed both of these in his ministry, some examples: He had power to forgive sins(only God can do this), he ate and drank just like us, God himself in a cloud on the mount of transfiguration affirmed his son, he thirsted on the cross. When he rose from the dead he ate fish with the disciples, he walked into a closed room without opening the door, and thomas was actually able to handle him and touch him.

Another thing, we try to put an infinite God on our level and that's just wrong. It's like and amoeba beleving that I can't exist becasue I have more than one cell. All we can truly understand is what God allows us to see in the bible, and being that he's infinte and we're finite I'm pretty sure there's a whole lot of things about God that our minds can't comprehend. Because we are finite. So don't say that God can't exist or that he can't do this or he can't do that. We can't put someone who is infinite in a box, cause if my highschool physics teacher was right, infinity just won't fit.

Hey Hailthekingoflights. I see where you are going with this, but then my question is what Jesus in relation to God during that time that Jesus was God in the flesh as well as man on earth? At first in your post you say that Jesus was God in the flesh, then later you say that God affirmed his son.
Leveller, what is the lesson that the trinity is meant to teach? I am not saying that the trinity cannot exist, and is some weird concept of Christianity, I am just asking how it relates to Christianity.
Finally, just to say that I am truely wondering how this works. I am not trying to descredit Christianity. It is a great thing that so far no one has said some comment about "those who close their hearts will never learn" . It is just that my method of gauging a religion that claims to be "the one true religion" would be to examine its doctrines and see how they fit with logic, not to first say that those doctrines are correct, and THEN attempt to prove it. If the religion is the correct one, no matter how much questioning I put it to, should still be proven right

Christians are not monotheistic. Sure, they'll tell you they are. And argue until red in the face that all three are the same. But if you believe in the Trinity (not to mention go about worshipping Saints and Virgins), you are a polytheist.

As you should be if you follow the Christian faith, as that's exactly how it was marketed to the polytheist Roman citizens in order to make it more appealing. You think it's easy to rip off a monotheistic God of a single ethnicity and force feed it to a divergent empire of mostly non-chosen people?

The argument is moot anyway. All religions of the world are slowly unifying into this hodge-podged new age movement where Baptists, Moonies, Jews and Muslims will all eventually be the same thing.

It's the fundamentalist NWO. The Pax of the Beast.

Christians do not worship saints and virgins FYI. Catholics are the only ones to honor them, but I wouldn't call it worship. ( I know catholics are huge in numbers)

Born agains often criticize catholics and episcapals for worshipping false Gods.

My point is that christains are so divided on faith and doctrine that one christian group does not even call the others christian (even though to anyone standing on the outside, they are)

The problem is the intentional misinterpretation of their own doctrine to alleviate contradictions and problems. That goes for all christian faiths. It results in the hodge podge you described above. It results in a whole heck of a lot of religions that pick and choose to believe in this or that.