LENR - Cold Fusion is real!

So I was digging through the public NASA archives online and found this pdf file meant for a conference regarding the Glenn Research Centre Ohio and Cold Fusion.
When I read pages 16 and 17 (very fine print bottom right for numbering), I quickly realised that this is something NASA have been working on and testing for some time!
Page 16 shows a photo of a 'Stirling Laboratory Research Engine (SLRE) which appears to be running from heating generated by a LENR system.
Page 17 shows a diagram schematic of the SLRE including "LENR Energy to Rotational Power Research Facility" On page 17, also note that 'Rossi' is listed under Theories. Could this be the famous Andri Rossi from E-cat?

I'm fairly convinced that LENR works, I guess the big hurdle is how to convert heat from the device into usable electricity. Cause where I live, we don't need no damn heating! its boiling!

Click here to download PDF: NASA PUBLIC ARCHIVE - LENR @ GRC PDF

The document is apparently from around 2008. I tried to upload some screengrabs but ATS site won't let me at the moment.

a reply to: LonnyZone

Good find, having looked at the PDF much of that has gone right over my head, anyone care to put it in Layman's terms? What does LENR even stand for?

I'm fairly convinced that LENR works, I guess the big hurdle is how to convert heat from the device into usable electricity.

That's what the Stirling engine does surely?

originally posted by: LonnyZone Page 17 shows a diagram schematic of the SLRE including "LENR Energy to Rotational Power Research Facility" On page 17, also note that 'Rossi' is listed under Theories. Could this be the famous Andri Rossi from E-cat?

I'm fairly convinced that LENR works, I guess the big hurdle is how to convert heat from the device into usable electricity. Cause where I live, we don't need no damn heating! its boiling!

Click here to download PDF: NASA PUBLIC ARCHIVE - LENR @ GRC PDF

Yes, that is Andrea Rossi. LENR is a real phenomenon. NRL investigated it for years using discretionary funding. Many have seen the effect.

Heat can be used directly in refrigeration cycles without having to be converted to electricity via a steam cycle which wastes about 60% of it.

I had a chemistry professor in college that swore he worked on cold fusion for his phd, but he left because everybody around the project started having "accidents."

a reply to: avgguy
ughh. i hate the bad guys. mozes forbid we get off oil.

So you found a document that you don't fully understand, therefore cold fusion works.

Rossi is a total scammer.

I think Robert Godes seems like the real deal:

brillouinenergy.com...

Peered reviewed papers:

brillouinenergy.com...

originally posted by: LonnyZone
Page 17 shows a diagram schematic of the SLRE including "LENR Energy to Rotational Power Research Facility" On page 17, also note that 'Rossi' is listed under Theories. Could this be the famous Andri Rossi from E-cat?

I'm fairly sure Rossi isn't credible, but that doesn't mean all LENR research should be put in the same category, since some interesting effects have been noticed. Repeatability, or lack of it is a problem however.

I'm fairly convinced that LENR works, I guess the big hurdle is how to convert heat from the device into usable electricity. Cause where I live, we don't need no damn heating! its boiling!

What convinced you it works?

I've seen some things that are interesting but nothing convincing. That NASA report lists a number of potential sources for the anomalous heating except one possibility that keeps getting raised, which is the difficulty of doing accurate calorimetry experiments and after seeing some of the Rossi experiments being hopelessly inaccurate that's part of the reason I'm convinced Rossi is at best completely incompetent and at worst intentionally committing fraud.

NASA's Glenn Research Center should be able to perform much better controlled experiments than those demonstrated by Rossi so when they find a small amount of anomalous heating I take it more seriously than anything Rossi says.

One interesting development is that the House Armed Services Committee asked the Secretary of Defense to provide them with a LENR briefing by Sept 22 2016 but I can't find that he ever did and only found this article saying the briefing was delayed:

www.e-catworld.com...

the article has been published today because Kachur reports that: “Today [September 22], the U.S. House of Representatives committee on armed services is set to be presented with a bill outlining the potential of cold fusion.”

To the best of my knowledge this report that the US House Armed Services Committee has requested by today, has not been delivered. The recent article by Michael Brooks in the New Scientist stated that the report would be delayed, so I think maybe the expectation for a report today is unfounded.

That article cites another article that says nobody really knows if LENR will ever amount to anything. There's a lot of skepticism and a little evidence but the evidence isn't what I would call that strong:

It’s a pretty safe prediction — cold fusion might or might not be worth anything.

I try to keep an open mind that until the anomalous heating results have been explained, they haven't been explained, but keeping an open mind also means not jumping to conclusions about what's causing those results. They may be caused by something other than low energy nuclear reactions, in which case it's not evidence of LENR. NASA reviewed some ideas but they obviously have no clue about the cause in the document you cited.

a reply to: pteridine

Heat can be converted to electricity without using a steam cycle...

A TEG (Thermo-electric Generator) is a solid state device, that can use heat and directly convert it to usable electricity.

They are already used in real world apps like the auto industry, where they are placed to scavenge waste heat and get usable electricity.

There's also a geothermal power plant in Alaska that uses banks of TEG modules and outputs 250Kw, from a temperature differential of 74 C...not too shabby, and no mechanical or moving parts.

The output of these thermoelectric generators is directly proportional to the heat applied, versus how cold the other side of the module is...e.g; If you had one side of the module immersed in hot water, the other side would need to be in something colder, either cool air, or better still active cryogenic systems pumping refrigerant gas around it.

On the Moon, or Mars or anywhere on Earth than has access to differences in temperature, these things would be a boon.

They can be used with a LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) or cold fusion setup to harvest the heat and turn that directly into usable electricity.

originally posted by: MysterX
a reply to: pteridine

Heat can be converted to electricity without using a steam cycle...

A TEG (Thermo-electric Generator) is a solid state device, that can use heat and directly convert it to usable electricity.

They are already used in real world apps like the auto industry, where they are placed to scavenge waste heat and get usable electricity.

There's also a geothermal power plant in Alaska that uses banks of TEG modules and outputs 250Kw, from a temperature differential of 74 C...not too shabby, and no mechanical or moving parts.

The output of these thermoelectric generators is directly proportional to the heat applied, versus how cold the other side of the module is...e.g; If you had one side of the module immersed in hot water, the other side would need to be in something colder, either cool air, or better still active cryogenic systems pumping refrigerant gas around it.

On the Moon, or Mars or anywhere on Earth than has access to differences in temperature, these things would be a boon.

They can be used with a LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) or cold fusion setup to harvest the heat and turn that directly into usable electricity.

When radiating out of the plane of the ecliptic to 3.2* K, they work well but are only 7-10% efficient, at best. Their advantage is no moving parts and concomitant reliability, which is why they are used on space vehicles.

originally posted by: LonnyZone Page 17 shows a diagram schematic of the SLRE including "LENR Energy to Rotational Power Research Facility" On page 17, also note that 'Rossi' is listed under Theories. Could this be the famous Andri Rossi from E-cat?

I'm fairly convinced that LENR works, I guess the big hurdle is how to convert heat from the device into usable electricity. Cause where I live, we don't need no damn heating! its boiling!

Click here to download PDF: NASA PUBLIC ARCHIVE - LENR @ GRC PDF

Yes, that is Andrea Rossi. LENR is a real phenomenon. NRL investigated it for years using discretionary funding. Many have seen the effect.

Heat can be used directly in refrigeration cycles without having to be converted to electricity via a steam cycle which wastes about 60% of it.

Well I'de buy a LENR air-conditioning unit if it was viable and cheap on the power!

That's what the Stirling engine does surely?

Yep but it's not very efficient. Can you imagine having a LENR stirling engine in your garage powering your house?
A little bit bulky and too many moving parts for commercial viability. And I'm going to save the 'cost' issue for my last reply.

originally posted by: schuyler
So you found a document that you don't fully understand, therefore cold fusion works.

Who said they fully understood it?

I'm fairly sure Rossi isn't credible, but that doesn't mean all LENR research should be put in the same category, since some interesting effects have been noticed. Repeatability, or lack of it is a problem however.

Well If he did work at NASA on LENR he must have SOME credibility and not just some nutty scientist off the street.

What convinced you it works?

I've been following the E-Cat for years and I find the experiments more than just an anomalous heat effect, there's some serious quantum physics taking place here it seems. The popular suggestion is that it exploits some kind of quantum tunneling effect, Which has also been shot-down. Another suggestion is that it exploits highly temporal and low-dimensional massive collinear collisions which produces lots and lots of entangled atoms. Apparently it's very hard to determain whats happening at the core. But it is happening...(Thanks Reddit and other web sources)
The clincher for me is that I've seen so much about it now and with organisations such as NASA actively investing and researching it along with the worlds biggest military powers in most parts of the world, it HAS to have some credibility or these power-houses would simply not bother with it. Industrial Heat also tried to patent Rossi's tech, why would they want something that didn't work?

I've seen some things that are interesting but nothing convincing. That NASA report lists a number of potential sources for the anomalous heating except one possibility that keeps getting raised, which is the difficulty of doing accurate calorimetry experiments and after seeing some of the Rossi experiments being hopelessly inaccurate that's part of the reason I'm convinced Rossi is at best completely incompetent and at worst intentionally committing fraud. NASA's Glenn Research Center should be able to perform much better controlled experiments than those demonstrated by Rossi so when they find a small amount of anomalous heating I take it more seriously than anything Rossi says. One interesting development is that the House Armed Services Committee asked the Secretary of Defense to provide them with a LENR briefing by Sept 22 2016 but I can't find that he ever did and only found this article saying the briefing was delayed:

The stirling machine is pretty convincing! why would they bother with rotational power if the heat-source didn't work? It looks like a functioning generator to me. Why would NASA build something that doesn't work and do a big presentation on it? Just observation leads me to conclusion.

Yes you're right, The US Defence forces are actively researching LENR in 2016 and the findings will be hush hush for some time I presume. In Australia, they research it at a Sydney Uni, public announcements about that have now been removed from Google (but not cache .
Here's a list of companies and organisations investing into serious LENR research in 2016:

E-cat list of researchers

I understand this list comes from E-Cat, However I know for sure that most of the list is true and accurate in researching LENR in 2016. Some of the researchers have not announced this publicly. It leads me to believe the rest of the list may hold some truth also. A simple google search on individual organisations brings some truth to light.

That article cites another article that says nobody really knows if LENR will ever amount to anything. There's a lot of skepticism and a little evidence but the evidence isn't what I would call that strong:

OK, here are the problems I know of that hold this tech back from commercialization.
1) First of all, how to make efficient electricity from it? from anywhere (your house, your car etc).? A turbine isn't going to cut the mustard these days. I like your answer MysterX but I don't know enough about the tech. Just stating the facts as I see them.
2) There's no money in it!! That's right, NO MONEY = NO MARKETING = NO LENR.
How are they going to make money off a LENR device that powers your home and only needs a new cartridge of nickel every 6 months? It simply cannot replace oil/gas/coal as a revenue stream. However, behind closed doors could save companies or organisations lots of money regardless if its called LENR or something else. I'm convinced the effect is real and reproducible now after seeing NASA's prototype and schematics to a point in which it needs to be refined. How it makes heat I guess is irrelevant for now?

This is the unfortunate reality of the slowly dying world we live in.

originally posted by: LonnyZone
Well If he did work at NASA on LENR he must have SOME credibility and not just some nutty scientist off the street.

If? Did he or didn't he, and where is that coming from? If he worked at NASA you need to provide the source but if you're saying "if" you apparently don't know if he did or not. I think not. You know he's a convicted criminal, right?

I've been following the E-Cat for years and I find the experiments more than just an anomalous heat effect, there's some serious quantum physics taking place here it seems. The popular suggestion is that it exploits some kind of quantum tunneling effect, Which has also been shot-down. Another suggestion is that it exploits highly temporal and low-dimensional massive collinear collisions which produces lots and lots of entangled atoms. Apparently it's very hard to determain whats happening at the core. But it is happening...(Thanks Reddit and other web sources)
The clincher for me is that I've seen so much about it now and with organisations such as NASA actively investing and researching it along with the worlds biggest military powers in most parts of the world, it HAS to have some credibility or these power-houses would simply not bother with it. Industrial Heat also tried to patent Rossi's tech, why would they want something that didn't work?

Lots of patents are made "just in case" something turns out to work. If it does turn out to work, then you're covered by a patent. But many times it turns out not to work and you have a useless patent of a tech that doesn't do anything. This can't be too much of a surprise to you, can it?

NASA's research is just diligence in investigating a potential energy source. They haven't made anything that works.

The stirling machine is pretty convincing! why would they bother with rotational power if the heat-source didn't work?

I only see a drawing, I don't see a machine, and the drawing isn't convincing of anything. There are lots of drawings of things that don't work, and even machines that don't work. This non-functional machine cost quite a bit to build and it will never do what it is supposed to do (provide free energy):

hackaday.com...

Why would NASA build something that doesn't work and do a big presentation on it? Just observation leads me to conclusion.

NASA ran some experiments. What do you think they built, the Stirling machine in that drawing? I don't think they did and I don't think it's even NASA's drawing, it's some university professor's drawing isn't it?

Yes you're right, The US Defence forces are actively researching LENR in 2016

Citation? I know the NAVY was researching it but they stopped the SPAWAR research several years ago, at least officially.

2) There's no money in it!! That's right, NO MONEY = NO MARKETING = NO LENR.
How are they going to make money off a LENR device that powers your home and only needs a new cartridge of nickel every 6 months?

HP makes more money from selling replacement print cartridges than they do from selling printers, so of course there can be serious money made in selling consumables. That's not a reason.

originally posted by: schuyler
So you found a document that you don't fully understand, therefore cold fusion works.

Oh dear god I think I've torn a muscle from laughing too hard. 90% of ATS science threads explained in one sentence!

a reply to: Arbitrageur

If? Did he or didn't he, and where is that coming from?

Page 17. Rossi is listed under Theories on that page.

You know he's a convicted criminal, right?

Haha no I didn't thanks for that tidbit.

Lots of patents are made "just in case" something turns out to work. If it does turn out to work, then you're covered by a patent. But many times it turns out not to work and you have a useless patent of a tech that doesn't do anything. This can't be too much of a surprise to you, can it?

Nope I guess not.

NASA's research is just diligence in investigating a potential energy source. They haven't made anything that works.

How do you know that for certain?

I only see a drawing, I don't see a machine, and the drawing isn't convincing of anything. There are lots of drawings of things that don't work, and even machines that don't work.

ntrs.nasa.gov...
Well this ones from Aug 29 2016. Looks like they went with the free-piston stirling engine design.

This non-functional machine cost quite a bit to build and it will never do what it is supposed to do (provide free energy):

Clearly....Whats it have to do with LENR?

NASA ran some experiments. What do you think they built, the Stirling machine in that drawing? I don't think they did and I don't think it's even NASA's drawing, it's some university professor's drawing isn't it?

I guess your right about it being the professor's drawing, that's where these crazy inventions tend to come from.
But I think they ended up building this: ntrs.nasa.gov...

HP makes more money from selling replacement print cartridges than they do from selling printers, so of course there can be serious money made in selling consumables. That's not a reason.

I disagree. I think compared to the types of commodities in competition it pales in comparison for sale-ability.

Well funded, adequately skilled parties have been onto this since at least the 90's.

Naval Research Laboratory paper from January 1996.

documents.theblackvault.com...

originally posted by: LonnyZone
Page 17. Rossi is listed under Theories on that page.

That doesn't mean Rossi worked there.

Haha no I didn't thanks for that tidbit.

That's relevant to the fact that it is a strike against him if he wanted to work somewhere lie NASA and it also tends to paint him as a "shady character".

How do you know that for certain?

As with the "why get a patent for something that doesn't work?" question, this is another question to which you probably already know the answers. NASA has been talking about their research on this and when their research blooms into a useful device they don't miss the opportunity to tell us.

ntrs.nasa.gov...
Well this ones from Aug 29 2016. Looks like they went with the free-piston stirling engine design.

That says "for Fission Power System" so it destroys your whole argument asking why would they build such a device for LENR if it didn't work. They built that for fission.

Whats it have to do with LENR?

You asked why someone would design or build a machine that didn't work. It was an answer to your question showing that many non-working machines have been designed and some have even been built. You haven't showed me a LENR machine because there isn't one that works; that link is a fission powered machine.

I guess your right about it being the professor's drawing, that's where these crazy inventions tend to come from.
But I think they ended up building this: ntrs.nasa.gov...

Again that's a fission powered device and fission is a functional technology.

I disagree. I think compared to the types of commodities in competition it pales in comparison for sale-ability.

There's no reason to labor this point since I agree that Rossi's technology won't move forward anyway, but if you were going to argue this point you would need to provide some better reason than "I don't think so", and nickel isn't even the fuel for Rossi's device so I don't think you even know what the replacement cartridge would contain which doesn't put you in a position to assess saleability. Anyway printer ink is about as mundane as it gets but that doesn't stop profits from being made by selling it.