Women - How do you look at other women-Are my perceptions weird because I'm trans-deep thoughts

To begin, it is the early morning hours/late night here and I'm a little fairly more than a little OMG really buzzed but this is when I seem to enjoy writing the most and even occasionally say something noteworthy or do a good job at getting my point across. It seems like that anyway but maybe the buzz part has something to do with my perceptions? I frequently ramble in this state and this is no exception. (edit - it is 7:20 AM)

Some things I write are a wall of text that nobody reads but for those that know me here and are familiar with other things I've written and because I'm in a super minority, I've exposed lot of my own life, my psyche and some of the things I've been through so that others may come to understand and know what at least one person like me is all about. I usually try to stick to facts, science and research and often interject some of my own experiences to demonstrate a point or provide perspective but on a few occasions, I've spoken more personally or more emotionally from the heart. This may turn out to be one of those looks inside that I hope sparks conversation?

This makes me feel vulnerable because I'm likely to be misinterpreted but I have a very complex mind and often wonder if some of the things I think and feel are normal and common or because I am someone that was born male but grew up to be a girl and have always had what they diagnose as gender dysphoria, I wonder if some of my perceptions and observations and the way I look at things are because of that? Could part of the way I look at other women also be because I feel a physical or emotional attraction in ways that are different than how I feel toward men? I'm hoping to get some feedback here. This may be too weird, deep or philosophical for some? I'm not an easy person to understand. Sometimes even to myself.

Quick note for those that have no idea who the hell I am, here's the deal: On the outside, I've been a boy and something in-between but always the same on the inside. By the time I was 18, I was a girl to the world on the outside and have lived the nearly 62 years up to now as just a regular women. I've never been, lived as or worked as a man. I've been through the physical process of changing sex so long ago, it is hard to imagine being any other way or having a body different than the one I have now and have had for most of my life.

My life has been completely happy and satisfying but the little wheels upstairs have always persisted in spinning and sometimes it is hard to filter out the noise and I often wonder where it's coming from? For a person like me, that was diagnosed as a child with what they then called primary transsexualism and is now called gender dysphoria, changing public gender and changing my physical body in the ways that matter, i.e. having a vagina, were lifesaving and fundamental to my existence. For the most part, my "gender dysphoria" was cured and I could live with myself and I can't imagine things being any other way.

But... I still question things. Not that there's any doubt or a hint of confusion about who I am, my gender or my physical body but I do wonder sometimes how I filter things compared to others. That's kind of what this whole post is about. In a lot of ways, there are some things that are kind of cool about having my perspective and life experience. It gives me somewhat a unique look into men and women and some of the things that make us all tick and although I've lived my entire adult life as just the regular gal next door, the things associated with gender dysphoria and living and being the opposite sex and gender from the body you were given at birth have been ever present in my thought processes. It's kind of hard to ignore particularly with the media, bathroom bills and the like and openly exposing myself here which is something I don't do in real life.

If others can take nothing else from this, know that people born with gender dysphoria have it for life regardless of how much the transformative process has been satisfied. I've tried to pass this down to younger trans people - you will always be driven by the things that made you transition genders. They can be silenced with treatment but they will never go away. Even as much as my life has been "normal", I know in ways that aren't readily visible to others that I will always be something unique or think in ways that others may not? I find this to be both a blessing and a curse. I am human though and occasionally feel the need for a little validation or connection with those outside my bubble as some sort gauge of my own of my own sanity. Don't we all do this?

I have no other outlet for these feelings other than ATS and my presence here and things I advocate for are often adversarial and controversial and I've taken a lot of crap and faced a lot of detractors. Fortunately no one has attacked me directly or tried to invalidate who I am but as this site has seemed to moved to the right lately, the attitude toward people like me is generally negative or even often hostile. It is hard sometimes but I understand it. Folks like me are aliens and challenge the status quo and what people think and believe and changing opinions is hard. That's why I've exposed myself, my life and my history here - for education and awareness and to show that transgender and transsexual people are thinking and feeling human beings just like everybody else.

So, on to my question that is directed primarily at women:

How do you look at other women and what do you see? What do you notice first and how do you form your initial impression of them? Do you look for similarities or familiarities in their appearance or manner? Do you compare yours to theirs?

I'm not speaking so much about people we encounter in our daily lives, but the images we are bombarded with particularly on television. I was watching an interesting new show this evening with several intriguing female characters and found myself with a critical eye. I looked at their overall presentation, behavior, mannerisms and social status and power and looked for those similarities and familiarities. I looked at how they did their hair, what they were wearing and if using makeup, how it worked for them, their tone and inflection, their hands, gestures and expressions. In other words, how they performed their gender or expressed their femininity. Is this something I do because of my "condition" or do other women do it too and to what degree? I have no one else to ask.

I think it is human nature to look for ourselves in others or find things we can relate to or identify with? I look at some women and think "that's like me" and at others wishing I could be like that with maybe a certain degree of jealousy or envy involved? I am confident as hell and have been successful in life as an average middle-class citizen, small business entrepreneur and woman with a certain degree of power, authority and privilege and think I have done pretty well for myself but I still compare myself to other women particularly when it comes to physicality and how they look or present themselves. Is this "normal"? Do other women do this and if they do, can they be honest about it?

--continued--

--continued from above--

I don't try to label my sexuality at all but have had emotional, romantic and sexual relationships with both men and women. I have attractions to both but in physical and emotional very different ways. Is the way I look at other women complicated because they are easier for me to emotionally bond with (men can be jerks) and are honestly more fun and complicated sexually or do all women look at other women with the same or some of the same critical factors (excluding the attraction part)?

Help me out here, ladies. Do I think this way or observe other women differently because of my trans history/gender dysphoria hyper awareness of these things, my physical attractions or curiosity about, interest in and empathy and identification with other women or is it all somewhat normal? I don't really give a damn about "normal" but what and how others think is of interest to me. Again, I think we all seek commonalities or things to mirror or compare ourselves against and at least to some extent, I think everyone does this?

In case anyone is curious, I've had plenty of boyfriends and was married to a guy for 12 years that's still one of my dearest friends and I consider myself mostly straight. I have also had three 5+ year intimate relationships with other women and the ways I am attracted to men, romantically, physically and socially could be an entirely different thread topic because I sometimes wonder about that too. I don't look at any of this as confusion but more of a curiosity. I know most people don't think about these things or take them for granted, particularly if cisgender and straight. I am not a confused person, I'm pretty clear on most things but sometimes things are complicated. This is nothing new for me.

Not sure what I'm driving at or if this makes any sense? Does anybody understand or is this all just complications of an over active mind? Are we as women just more critical or observant of other women or is this just something I do?

What are your thoughts?. I'll probably sleep most of the day but am looking forward to some interesting responses.

Thanks for your input.

--Elisabeth

PS.
Punctuation in thread titles would be really be nice.

a reply to: Freija


You are blessed with an ability that few have or can obtain. Your physical and unique experiences have made you so. You should not question as much as just wonder in awe of what you notice and think about. There are few correct answers at the true depth of anything.

I thoroughly enjoy scoping out other females as much as I enjoy males. I am probably 99% attracted to men, but I love to appreciate the beauty and the personalities of other women (granted they have the qualities that draw me in)

Usually I will notice their demeanor right away, body language. Then I will notice their body, smile, eyes, hair. Then If I'm lucky I get the chance to see their personality in action. I love how we all come in different colors shapes and sizes. I love the different personalities that everyone has.

Sometimes I compare myself to other women, but now that I'm 25, it's usually in a healthy manner, not a coveting. jealous manner.

All of my male friends have suspected me of being homosexual at some point due to the way I interact with my female friends. *Shrug* I just am who I am and I love the people I love!

I feel like what you described is quite a "normal" way of viewing others.

-Alee

a reply to: Freija

I am 55. When I was younger, I looked at body, hair, clothing. Now I just look at their demeanor. I am hyper vigilant about everything, so I am always looking out for predators and prey. I am one of those people who get approached alot. People sense they can talk to me. I also get hit up for money from vagrants. So I evaluate every every situation to make sure it is safe for me. It is a pain. But if something does not "click" or looks wrong, it registers for me.

My trans friends taught me to look at peoples' hearts before anything else.

I suppose I compare myself to other women. But my life is so different from "normal" that I just do the best I can and move on.

I wish you well.

a reply to: Freija

I tried to be normal once - worst two minutes of my life

Joking aside, I got married to the most boring guy I could find and it lasted longer than two minutes, but it was really horrible, but I did do it to be normal.
The word alone probably has caused more sadness and despair than any other human invention.

Also I don't think too much about genders or sexual orientation labels, I was in bed with both, only loved one I interestingly didn't have sex with and try to respect and appreciate everybody.
I also am a very responsive to everything aesthetically pleasing, the other day I got jealous because some guy had prettier shoes than me.
Don't know if that helps?

For what its worth, and obviously, im a guy. But i still feel like chiming in cuz reasons.

For me, personally, the first thing I notice (that is meaningful...not just a set of legs or something across the room) is the mind. You don't have to be brilliant. But if you aren't intelligent, you at least need to have a novel way of thinking that I find intriguing.


While I am not a fan of prejudice, etc...i am a huge fan of "chunking". It helps me interact with people if I can chunk them into a stereotype (or string of stereotypes). Its more about recognizing that a leads to b, and just assuming that someone who does a will end up at b (and less prejudice). When I meet someone, I chunk them immediately so I know what i am dealing with. Mostly because I hate putting any time into people that have no value to me personally (are not interesting or don't resonate with me).

While I cannot go into the specifics of how I do this (it would take forever for me to self analyze it, and just as long to write about it), if you look up mental chunking it should help make it make sense.

You're thinking too much. Quit spending your time trying to analyzing others. What you're doing isn't much different from how many others choose to "classify" trans persons based on their own preconceptions. If you can't learn to just accept others, how can you fault others for doing the same to you?

a reply to: Freija

You sound pretty "normal" to me, because I make a lot of the same assessments you do... But, then, I wouldn't say I'm actually very "normal" when compared to the majority of women... When I look at other women, my first assessment is usually of their attractiveness (not necessarily sexually), but just attractiveness as a person. Their confidence plays a huge part in their attractiveness. I really appreciate most women, regardless of age. I like to study them, wonder about how they are in their lives, etc.

I saw a woman yesterday in the grocery store. She was probably 20-25, long lanky hair, and dressed in simple clothes. What I noticed was her baby. She had the most angelic face! What a beautiful child! Just as I was thinking that, the woman looked and me, smiled and moved on. Later, in the produce section, she was stopped by a store employee who was admiring her baby. I'm very friendly, so I approached as I wanted to get a closer look at the baby. I said, "I saw your baby and wanted to meet her."

The young woman smiled proudly, and in the thickest southern accent, said to me, "I seen you see her"! It was just a precious moment! She was so proud of her little angel and loved that I had noticed. I felt like I had an insight into who this woman was.

I looked at their overall presentation, behavior, mannerisms and social status and power and looked for those similarities and familiarities. I looked at how they did their hair, what they were wearing and if using makeup, how it worked for them, their tone and inflection, their hands, gestures and expressions. In other words, how they performed their gender or expressed their femininity.

I do exactly the same thing. I usually LOVE to see a strong woman, maybe someone who seems in touch with their masculine side and not so "into" the idea of classic femininity, probably because that's who I am.

I think we're all (or most of us) on a continuum as regards gender AND sexuality. Our gender is more fluid than our organs let on, and some of us are more gender-fluid than others. Our sexuality is more fluid, still. I was born a woman, lived my life as a woman, and will always be a woman, but I have many of the more masculine characteristics personality-wise. I'm independent, tough-skinned, strong, problem-solving, self-confident, logical, harsh and pragmatic. I have feminine characteristics as well, they're just not as strong. I'm emotional, nurturing and loving.

My sexuality is much more fluid. I call myself "mostly straight", because the vast majority my relationships have been with men. The thing is, I feel more attracted to women, so I'm not sure if I've been mostly with men because I'm straight or because I was taught that it's the acceptable way to be. In any case, I'm now in a 25-year relationship with a man and wouldn't change it for anything.

So, I can't say why you look at women the way you do, but it sounds VERY similar to the way I look at them, so, seems "normal" to me. Yes, it's complex. That's just part of being a woman.

Hey Ms. Freija!

I consider myself 100% straight, but like most women, I check other girls out all the time. The first physical things I tend to look at are the traits I don't like about myself. For example, I have never liked my nose - I think it's too big on the end. I have always wanted a feminine little nose that comes to more of a point. So, one of the first things I look at on another woman is her nose. Is it bigger than mine? Is it the kind of nose I have always wanted?

While I am in no way "fat", I have gained a few pounds over the years (damn you menopause), so I always check out a woman's figure to compare it to my own, especially if they are around the same age as me. Are their hips bigger than mine? Do they have nicely toned arms? All things I wish were better on my body.

I definitely look at other women's fashion choices. Again, I concentrate on women around my same age. I get ideas on how to wear things sometimes by looking at what they are wearing. Of course, I see women all the time that I can be a bit catty about (all inside my head of course), regarding what I would consider poor fashion sense.

I'm a bit shy and introverted in person and I admire women who are more confident, so I guess I pay attention to women who stand out to me as strong and unafraid to speak their mind, because I would like to be more like that.

Bottom line, I think it's normal for us women to check each other out. I can't speak for any other woman, but the things I focus on are probably the things about myself that I am the least confident about. And this would be for either every day people or celebrity women.

It's completely natural to be situationally aware assessing those you encounter in day to day life and forming opinion's based on what you see. This is that natural prejudice that people have from birth not be confused with environmentally learned prejudice or negative prejudice if you will. All humans do this, we see others around us and form conclusions about what we see. Maybe not with everyone we see but certainly for those whom stick out to us for whatever reasons and hold our attention long enough to form a thought about what we are seeing. I might see a girl wearing an outfit that I fancy and think "Ooh I like her style, banking that look for my next shopping trip" I might notice another and think "oh man she looks like she is having a rough day" or another and think "drug addict". Although in this day and age I'm not sure how many people are actually paying attention to their surroundings but rather walking around with their gaze fixated on their phones to be honest.

I live about 80 to 90% in my mind. Beyond being clean and orderly in appearance and expecting others I encounter to be the same, I could give a rip.

More or less treat people like I treat people until they give me a reason not to.

Interesting, the different perceptions of what variations there are between

(people's) thinking.

The old saying that *we (women) all turn into our mothers* has recently come

home to roost with me. I grew up creating myself as the woman I wanted to

be and was happy being, however recently when looking in the mirror I see my

mother looking back at me. Now although there may have always been some

similar characteristics, I never felt or thought that we had more than a passing

resembelance.

This really should not be a problem, because my mother was a beautiful woman ....

but I still want to be me, and less and less I see me looking back from the mirror.


A couple of weeks ago I read in the papers of the death of a woman who had

been the first person to have a face transplant, she died of complications from

cancer which was not treatable due to her immune system being compromised by

the drugs taken for controlling the rejection of the transplanted tissues. In the

article it said that although the physical part of the transplant was a success, she

never quite got past the 'strange' face that looked back at her from the mirror!!

I really related to that feeling .... I understood.

a reply to: eletheia

Yeah, I don't look like my mother, but I do sound like her ... maybe a mix of her and my grandfather.

Nah, you sink or swim with me based on your actions. I'll treat you decent until you show me I shouldn't.

I'm likely the meanest mother out there because I spend time walking my son back through his actions and showing him how actions have consequences all the time.

Hi Freija,

I tend to look at a woman's over-all countenance; do they look comfortable in their self-expression, do they appreciate themselves enough to take care in their grooming, and are they at ease... I notice things like if they are bored whilst they wait in line, stare into their phones, or if they are looking around in awareness, with an air of interest or awe at the world around them. Beauty is more of a nebulous concept to me; it is a deeper "something" than outward appearances would necessarily convey...

As for television, I look at it as an illusion; the women in shows and commercials have a team of people creating their look, so I more resonate with the women whom embody the above mentioned qualities...quirky and unconventional are good attributes too.

FWIW I have wondered the same as you before, is my way of looking at women different than other women (due to being bisexual), and I have found that to some degree it is - many of my friends look at other women to see how they compare next to them, "am I as attractive as her, thinner than her, dressed better" etc. whereas I do not feel that need to compare as much...I rather more enjoy the diversity in women, which I do attribute - at least in part - to my sexuality.

Thank you to everyone that has taken the time to read and reply. I woke up at 1:30 this afternoon feeling a little fuzzy thanks to the empty bottle of wine sitting on the counter. I realized I left the TV on all night and stumbled into bed without taking my make-up off or brushing my teeth so I just grabbed yesterday's clothes off the bathroom floor for now and came to sit here at my desk with a bowl of oatmeal and a banana. I'll worry about waking up, trying to brush the tangles out of my hair and being functional for later in the day. Or maybe tomorrow?

originally posted by: Aliensun
You are blessed with an ability that few have or can obtain. Your physical and unique experiences have made you so. You should not question as much as just wonder in awe of what you notice and think about. There are few correct answers at the true depth of anything.

This was profound, kind and comforting. I do realize my lens on the world is probably different from most and there are times when I'm more aware of it than others. It's kind of a double-edged sword and I do have a tendency to be overloaded with input occasionally that the analytical side of my brain thinks it needs to process or the feeling side needs to feel. There is a blessing in this somewhere but sometimes I wish my mind would shut the hell up or that I wasn't so woke about things.

originally posted by: NerdGoddess
Usually I will notice their demeanor right away, body language. Then I will notice their body, smile, eyes, hair. Then If I'm lucky I get the chance to see their personality in action. I love how we all come in different colors shapes and sizes. I love the different personalities that everyone has.

Sometimes I compare myself to other women, but now that I'm 25, it's usually in a healthy manner, not a coveting. jealous manner.

Yes! It's not that I'm really coveting or jealous either but sometimes I feel a little cheated not being born female and do have a bit of wistful envy for those that were. What a pain in the ass to deal with and what an awkward load of historical baggage to carry around I often wish I didn't have. This perspective, I know is unique and it can be annoying at times and I can't help but think it colors things on occasion. I think a lot of this too might be held over feelings from my childhood that were very powerful during the years I wanted nothing more in the world than to be like other girls socially and physically. With all this in mind, it is hard to not sometimes question the way I see things and was kind of my motivation for starting this thread. Reassurances that for the most part I'm not completely out in left field have been helpful. Thanks, Alee!

originally posted by: katfish
I am 55. When I was younger, I looked at body, hair, clothing. Now I just look at their demeanor.

For me, it's more a person's overall vibe or aura first that then goes into more detailed observations. I think everyone makes that three second evaluation that triggers our fight or flight response and makes that initial check for the similarities and differences between others and ourselves. This is tribal. I'm not really judgmental, it takes all kinds to make the world go around and I appreciate that. People in general fascinate me although I'm not much of a people person.

My trans friends taught me to look at peoples' hearts before anything else.

Yes, absolutely. No one wants to be judged or categorized on superficialities but in the scenarios I mentioned of seeing someone in the media or on TV, external accoutrements and performance are all we have to go on and someone's "heart" is not revealed. It is unfortunate that people form these snap decisions and observations but I don't think anyone is not guilty of doing this.

Thanks for your comments.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
For what its worth, and obviously, im a guy. But i still feel like chiming in cuz reasons.

For me, personally, the first thing I notice (that is meaningful...not just a set of legs or something across the room) is the mind. You don't have to be brilliant. But if you aren't intelligent, you at least need to have a novel way of thinking that I find intriguing.

Good and I won't hold it against you for being a guy! Let me ask you this... imagine walking into a room or a meeting to give a presentation. Who do you size up first? Who do you connect with? The women or the other men? How do you make those initial assessments and what do you base them on before someone's intelligence has had a chance to reveal itself? How do you compare yourself to others to determine where you fit in? What criteria do you use?

I'm not so sure about your people chunking but I guess we all rely on stereotypes and things we know to a certain extent at least at first when we encounter someone unknown. I actually try to not do this but how successful I am at it or how intellectually honest I'm being with myself is uncertain.

originally posted by: ReprobateRaccoon
You're thinking too much. Quit spending your time trying to analyzing others. What you're doing isn't much different from how many others choose to "classify" trans persons based on their own preconceptions. If you can't learn to just accept others, how can you fault others for doing the same to you?

Geez! I don't really try to analyze or judge people, just observe and I'm accepting of everyone unless they're assholes. Things I do analyze are my own perceptions and how things within my own personality can be related to others.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: Freija

You sound pretty "normal" to me, because I make a lot of the same assessments you do... But, then, I wouldn't say I'm actually very "normal" when compared to the majority of women... When I look at other women, my first assessment is usually of their attractiveness (not necessarily sexually), but just attractiveness as a person. Their confidence plays a huge part in their attractiveness. I really appreciate most women, regardless of age. I like to study them, wonder about how they are in their lives, etc.

This ^.

--
I looked at their overall presentation, behavior, mannerisms and social status and power and looked for those similarities and familiarities. I looked at how they did their hair, what they were wearing and if using makeup, how it worked for them, their tone and inflection, their hands, gestures and expressions. In other words, how they performed their gender or expressed their femininity. --

I do exactly the same thing. I usually LOVE to see a strong woman, maybe someone who seems in touch with their masculine side and not so "into" the idea of classic femininity, probably because that's who I am.

Same here. When I mentioned evaluating how a woman expresses their femininity, I was being inclusive of how they expressed their masculinity as well. I find both aspects intriguing as well as attractive qualities.

... I was born a woman, lived my life as a woman, and will always be a woman, but I have many of the more masculine characteristics personality-wise. I'm independent, tough-skinned, strong, problem-solving, self-confident, logical, harsh and pragmatic. I have feminine characteristics as well, they're just not as strong. I'm emotional, nurturing and loving.

We sound a lot alike in many ways except for what we were born as. Being someone trans, this balance of masculine and feminine attributes is something I have examined within myself in great detail, that's just part of the gig and while one is dominant, like all people, I am a mixture of both. I fall victim to some of the traditional trappings of femininity but I like my girly side. I enjoy having long hair, polishing my nails and wearing make-up and the like and can't imagine not having a female body but I do have a definite streak of tomboy in me. It took me a long time to realize this and incorporate those aspects of myself I so detested into my personality. It really wasn't until I established myself and gained confidence and strength in my femaleness and womanhood that I acknowledged and felt comfortable expressing this side of myself. You natal girls grow up working these things out. I didn't start until I became known to the world as a girl when I was 18. My lens is always going to be a little bit different on things relating to gendered qualities but it isn't that much different. I have and display those characteristics you listed that often get women classified as bitchy and dog knows I've come across that way at times. I can't say that I don't feel the influence of how society expects women to behave either but both men and women feel this to some degree. I've known a lot of strong and assertive women but all have been conscious to some extent these are often considered masculine traits. Ain't society and expected roles and behaviors grand? It may not be the 1950's anymore but some of these things persist. Death to the patriarchy or some other 3rd wave feminist saying - haha!

My sexuality is much more fluid. I call myself "mostly straight", because the vast majority my relationships have been with men. The thing is, I feel more attracted to women, so I'm not sure if I've been mostly with men because I'm straight or because I was taught that it's the acceptable way to be. In any case, I'm now in a 25-year relationship with a man and wouldn't change it for anything.

Yeah, sexuality is weird and I describe myself as mostly straight as well avoiding the multitude of labels we have these days for such things. Call me about a 2 on the Kinsey scale if you must. Men seem like such different creatures and the different dynamics of dealing with relationships with them is what I find attractive if not a little bit scary. Women, on the other hand, connect emotionally to other women on a different level that can be more psychic, empathetic and understanding. For me, this all comes down to who either sex is as a person and what's in their heart more than what parts they have.

I will say the best and the longest relationship and greatest companion I've ever had was when I was married. We've been divorced for 20 years but I still love and am drawn toward this man and think I always will be. I was reminded of this earlier in the week when paid him a visit and hung out at his shop for a few hours. We were so good together and the way he lights up and talks and shows and explains the things he's into to me, I know he still cares too. He's fun to be around but annoying and frustrating at the same time. It's too bad I couldn't stand living with him and we went our separate ways.

So, I can't say why you look at women the way you do, but it sounds VERY similar to the way I look at them, so, seems "normal" to me. Yes, it's complex. That's just part of being a woman.

Thanks, BH. I really appreciate your reply. You're one of the women I look up to and respect around here.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
Hey Ms. Freija!

I consider myself 100% straight, but like most women, I check other girls out all the time. The first physical things I tend to look at are the traits I don't like about myself. For example, I have never liked my nose - I think it's too big on the end. I have always wanted a feminine little nose that comes to more of a point. So, one of the first things I look at on another woman is her nose. Is it bigger than mine? Is it the kind of nose I have always wanted?

Hey back, you!

Yeah, this is interesting and I think I do the same thing but I probably have more physical things I don't like about my body or appearance to check out? Heck, when you aren't even born female, there's probably a long list of things to pick apart and compare even though outwardly there isn't really anything very male about me but we all have our own little personal insecurities, right? Again, I think for me there's some extra things going on but that just comes with the territory so I try to not let it bother me that much. Experience tells me it wouldl make me crazy and unhappy if I did.

I definitely look at other women's fashion choices. Again, I concentrate on women around my same age. I get ideas on how to wear things sometimes by looking at what they are wearing. Of course, I see women all the time that I can be a bit catty about (all inside my head of course), regarding what I would consider poor fashion sense.

Oh yeah. It's funny about the age thing and I look at others my age to see how they're holding up, their style and how they do things and carry themselves. Of course, what's on TV is not reality but opening up the can of worms about how women are portrayed in the media in general is worthy of its own thread. I don't envy those raising teenage daughters that think they need to look like a Kardashian or Nicki Minaj. If I had kids, I think I'd want to move to rural nowhere without TV or internet so that girls grew up without such unrealistic and harsh expectations. Uh oh! Time to get off my lawn or something?

I'm a bit shy and introverted in person and I admire women who are more confident, so I guess I pay attention to women who stand out to me as strong and unafraid to speak their mind, because I would like to be more like that.

In social situations, I come across shy and quiet too but when it comes to donning my work hat or performing in a managerial or leadership capacity, something else comes out. I got this strength or power from my mother and didn't even know I had it until I started my life as me. I had never even found my own voice until then.

Bottom line, I think it's normal for us women to check each other out. I can't speak for any other woman, but the things I focus on are probably the things about myself that I am the least confident about. And this would be for either every day people or celebrity women.

I agree with this. Why else would women's magazines have pictures of other women or women be used in advertising to other women. I've known some of this was true. I've known that women check out other women. I was just unsure if the ways I did this or the things I looked for were somewhat common or if that was just one more thing that was different about me. It seems like not so much from some of the answers I've been given here.

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
...I might see a girl wearing an outfit that I fancy and think "Ooh I like her style, banking that look for my next shopping trip" I might notice another and think "oh man she looks like she is having a rough day" or another and think "drug addict".

Yeah, me too. I saw a girl on TV last night with a ring just the type I've been looking to find and wearing bracelets in a way I'd like to try. Talk about noticing minute details. Another woman was wearing glasses I thought might look good on me. One other woman was the sophisticated business type with her hair done up in a way I'd never do mine in an attractive tailored suit that would be totally inappropriate for the work I do. She was a boss though with presence and authority and that's what took me most about her. I guess it's a whole bunch of things but women make the most impression on me.

originally posted by: eletheia
Interesting, the different perceptions of what variations there are between (people's) thinking. The old saying that *we (women) all turn into our mothers* has recently come home to roost with me. I grew up creating myself as the woman I wanted to be and was happy being, however recently when looking in the mirror I see my mother looking back at me. Now although there may have always been some similar characteristics, I never felt or thought that we had more than a passing resembelance.

Wait! How old are you? I think I turned into my mother a long time ago or at least by the time I was forty. That's a weird thing when you realize it has happened to you.

What's even worse is that even as a small (boy) child, people always commented on how much we looked alike. I look at pictures of her in her teens, twenties and thirties and it's almost scary how much we were the same. I'm a little taller than she was but we were both blonde and built very similar. I showed some old pictures of her to a friend that was hard pressed to believe it wasn't me. I'd love to post pics to make others go "oh wow" but that isn't something I do anywhere.

My mom died when she was 48. I was 25 at the time and will be 62 in a couple of months. Would have been kind of nice to see her age and what I had to look forward to but I'm finding that out now on my own. It's not so great.

originally posted by: MoonBlossom
FWIW I have wondered the same as you before, is my way of looking at women different than other women (due to being bisexual), and I have found that to some degree it is - many of my friends look at other women to see how they compare next to them, "am I as attractive as her, thinner than her, dressed better" etc. whereas I do not feel that need to compare as much...I rather more enjoy the diversity in women, which I do attribute - at least in part - to my sexuality.

Thank you so much writing this as the perspective of someone that is attracted to other women in this way is one I was hoping to hear. I find things of beauty in all women. I've noted some of the outward things I notice or take into account and do make some comparisons but it isn't a competition. Usually it is just for ways I can improve myself that make me happy and not to impress anyone else. I tend to have my own style and don't let others dictate my miserable fashion sense and usually only feel like shopping for clothes when I have to so it's not like I'm prissy or some paragon of femininity.

Thanks again to everyone for your comments and a meaningful discussion.

I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about gender issues and what people are thinking. They're not thinking anything. If they are it's most likely some major problem they're dealing with like how to come up with the rent money.

a reply to: bigpatato
Well, "gender issues" were mentioned in this thread but I don't remember any "worry" about them and I was more curious about how people were thinking rather than what they were thinking. The topic of this thread was how women observe other women, what they see, look for and what they think but maybe you missed that before jumping the gun at your keyboard?

Thanks for stopping by anyway.