The Indus Valley civilisation may be even older than initially thought

The Indus Valley civilisation is 2,500 years older than previously believed

A group of researchers in India have used carbon dating techniques on animal remains and pottery fragments to conclude that the Indus Valley settlements could be 8,000 years old—2,500 years older than previously believed.

That could make the Indus Valley settlements, which were spread across Pakistan and northern India, even older than the Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilisations.

“Our study pushes back the antiquity to as old as 8th millennium before present and will have major implications to the evolution of human settlements in Indian sub-continent,” Anindya Sarkar, a professor at the department of geology and geophysics at IIT-Kharagpur, said in a statement.

Sarkar, who worked with researchers from the Archaeological Survey of India, the Physical Research Laboratory in Ahmedabad and Pune’s Deccan College, used a technique known as the Optically Stimulated Luminescence, which measures the amount of light emitted from mineral grains to date past events.

One of my favorite Ancient Cradle Civilization locations may have just given us a bit more to chew on....

If

If, true and confirmed this would push our understanding of just how old the Indus Valley civilization truly is. The article goes on to describe how Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro and other ancient sites may have been part of a much larger ancient footprint. I'm a firm believer that just off the coast and now, presently submerged, are still yet to be discovered and fully appreciated sites which would help us fill in the missing pieces of this still unfolding story.

To be honest, this possible find doesn't surprise me if true. I feel, and I've posted this several times over the years here at ATS, that there is still much, much more to these Ancient sites around the world. I always remind myself just how long 'Mankind" has supposedly lived in these regions and how much has changed, not just Politically, Culturally and Religiously but Environmentally as well.

The rise and fall and then burying and even coastal submerging of Ancient Civs and Cultures is the norm, not the exception in mankinds history, and if I may be so bold...

Our "Prehistory"

a reply to: SLAYER69

This is my birthplace my heritage and history.. This is where the silkroad once began.. This is where the gypsies can call their home..

a reply to: SLAYER69

I like this kind of news, we keep pushing back in time the origins of ancient civilizations, almost reaching the point where there will be only one possible explanation. But we are not ready to face it.

If the existence of off-shore cities is confirmed, it would indicate a date for them back into the last ice age, would it not? I mean the ocean levels were much lower during the ice age.

Interesting development.

errr, complete bs or hoax, the 8000 BCE date is laughable, ridiculously out of step with the archaeological facts

The Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) was a Bronze Age civilisation (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) mainly in the northwestern regions of South Asia, extending from what today is northeast Afghanistan to Pakistan and northwest India

en.wikipedia.org...

Also, the claim for sunken cities was originally made by the Indian minister responsible for marine tourism, Murli Manohar Joshi, in the gulf of Cambray/Khambat and of course turned out to be completely spurious

Really, come on now, once again this has been hoaxed by Hindu nationalism, which always wants to be first, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, even considering this as factual is a complete farce
This is just another government sponsored nationalistic baloney sausage, delivered to you by a government, of which, Several ministers are accused of corruption and nearly a quarter of the 543 elected members of parliament had been charged with crimes, including murder,

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
If the existence of off-shore cities is confirmed, it would indicate a date for them back into the last ice age, would it not? I mean the ocean levels were much lower during the ice age.

Well yeah, they were about 120m lower



animations

and they took thousands of years to get there, that's like a couple of inches a decade, You'd really have to run in geological terms not to get your feet wet,

I guess you've probably read Graham Hancock's "Underworld" which again was completely made up from whole cloth. The man lies for profit, you can't trust him. The BBC called him an intellectual fraudster and they had proof.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Brilliant post and interesting find to say the least, if true then this would fit well into the understanding's and belief of many whom frequent this site, such a complex civilization did not just appear as well so how old was it before it's demise, of course it did not really die as arguably the civilization's of the Indian subcontinent and the himalayan plateau as well as Persia probably had there root's in this culture.

Tikbalang actually make's a very good point as well in that the Rom/Roma and other Gypsy clan's do have ancestry in the Indian subconintinent and in it's history the invaders whom came in wave's always became the top caste of indian society meaning that those whom are the lowest cast such as the untouchable's may potentially have been once the highest cast of a lost indian civilization, there ancestor's enslaved by conquerors whom in turn were enslaved themselves by new waves of conquerors.



Though for Tikbalang I Once read an interesting theory which linked the Roma to the Raj Phut (probably spelt that wrong) a Hindy army of mainly high caste Indian's of royal lineage whom were sent out by there ruler to combat the Muslim invaders, apparently they fought succesful battle after battle for over 20 years but as they did there vast army diminished nad eventually they turned to go home but found when they got there that the Moghul's had invaded and conquered behind there back leaving them no where to go.

I do not know the validity of the story but it was hypothesised that as these traditional army's would have brough there family's with them in great baggage train's that this was one of the root's of the Roma and other Gypsy's though that other lineages were also involved and over time these outcasts blended with new blood in the land's they past through.

I do know that they suffered though, slavery, persecution, scapegoating and general hatred without true cause and that they also often travelled with another unwelcome people sometime's even joining and travelling together and maybe even intermarrying to some extent and that other people were of course the Jewish or at least those Jewish that found they could not settle in any place due to persecution and had to move on all the time though this was mainly in Europe of the early middle ages period, it is however potential that a lot of Jewish people have Gypsy ancestry and vice versa?.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Yes it would and it is interesting to see how some here are attacking the very possibility (And evidence) that they are real with gusto that show's they have some kind of vested interest in them not being real or are sheep on the opposite side of the fence whom like to follow the skeptics.

The city's or rather ruin's ARE there however the indian's have come in for so much international criticism that they have revised the date upward to 7500 bc as a potential date though admitedly since the Indian subcontinent IS riding over the Asian continent (Himalaya's) it is possible that faster than sea level rise rates of sea level depth have occured in the south of india as a result of a tilting effect on the indian plate which would mean that they may have been submerged far deeper far faster than that.

archaeologyonline.net...
People constantly use Wikipedea and I am no exception but it must be pointed out that that site is also not Unbiased as it depend's upon whom writes' the article and there personal opinion's.

It also has to be pointed out that the Indian's especially devotee's of Krishna believe there is a city there and have so even before they were discovered, they discovery they have therefore referred to on many site's as Dwarka after the legendary city Krishna, though even if they are actual city's (And I do believe they are) then they may not be this Dwarka which the Indian's believe though it is potential that they are the root of that legend and that there Dwarka of there religion grew up around this folk memory of a lost great kingdom, how rapid or slow it's submergance was though is something to think about, it could have been rapid given india's geological activity or it could have taken century's.

Slayer69 threads. One of the reasons I joined ATS.

2,000+ years older?

Next we'll be talking Lemuria. I've always thought we were older and smarter than we give ourselves credit for.

a reply to: thesungod

Mu...

Not Lemuria.

Although, in that regards, I'm sure the "Tales" associated with the name were around a lot longer beforehand.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Thanks for sharing this Slayer, another highly interesting thread. The sheer scale of the Harappan civilisation is truly impressive - far larger than both Egypt and Mesopotamia at the time. Also, it must have seemed almost like paradise compared to other regions at the time.

For example, domesticated animals - cats, dogs, fowl, humped and short horn cattle, as well as possibly pigs, camel and buffalo. There is also conjecture that the Indian elephant was domesticated (as much as you can!) at this point.

Also extensive trade networks - lapis lazuli from Afghanistan, turquoise from Iran, gold from Southern India / Iran, etc. This also tellingly reveals that there must have been extensive civilisations in these areas also - if you are trading goods, you have developed civilisation.

The end of the Harappan civilisation is also extremely interesting. Mohenjo - Daro (North Harappan) came to a very abrupt end around the middle of the 2nd Millenium BC by raiders who swarmed through - leaving the dead and dying lying the streets. This must have had a major impact because urban development / civilisation appears to have ended in Northern India for many centuries after this. I have read a source linking this to the beginnings of the "Aryan" invasions.

The South (Kathiawar area) seems to have had a different ending though - cultural continuity appears to have continued through to the Iron Age in Central and Southern India.

Here is an article you may find interesting Slayer:

Harappa: An overview of Harappan architecture and town planning

And here is quite a cool map denoting Neotholic sites in the region:

Major Indo Iranian Neolithic sites and the Indus Civilisation

a reply to: SLAYER69

Great information that I always expect you your good self and one or two others.

It has never bothered me where early man got up and coddled off from or to. What interests me most is where sophisticated civilisation started and just how accomplished it was.

For this I have always felt it best to look at China and especially India. These two cultures are so amazingly accomplished all round. If you look further West, you have little to match the dates or sizes of these hubs of civilisation. One that comes to mind is Atlantis which we are told sunk and as I don't doubt for one second it was in the Atlantic Ocean and settled on a T-junction of tectonic plates then we shouldn't be surprised it sunk. People certainly went from Europe to the Americas and a middle staging post would have made a lot of sense.

When you look at the pictures imposed over the ruins of what the Indus Settlements must have looked like, they must have been something to see for a traveller and somewhere quite beautiful for those who lived in them.

originally posted by: Shiloh7

For this I have always felt it best to look at China and especially India. These two cultures are so amazingly accomplished all round. If you look further West, you have little to match the dates or sizes of these hubs of civilisation

Egypt and the cultures that preceded it are older than anything in the East
en.wikipedia.org...

The period from 9000 to 6000 BC has left very little in the way of archaeological evidence. Around 6000 BC, Neolithic settlements appear all over Egypt

Mesopotamian culture is older than that and is currently considered to be the cradle of civilisation, by people who aren't making up facts
en.wikipedia.org...

Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA) denotes the first stage in early Levantine and Anatolian Neolithic culture, dating around 11,500 to 10,000 BP. Archaeological remains are located in the Levantine and upper Mesopotamian region of the Fertile Crescent.

originally posted by: Shiloh7One that comes to mind is Atlantis which we are told sunk and as I don't doubt for one second it was in the Atlantic Ocean and settled on a T-junction of tectonic plates then we shouldn't be surprised it sunk. People certainly went from Europe to the Americas and a middle staging post would have made a lot of sense.

.

It might make sense, but it isn't remotely true, we can follow the genetics out of Africa and the path that migrating peoples took because of the genetics they spread along the way. This proves that

1. America was populated from Siberia, by MTDNA Haplogroups A,B,C,D, X.
2. Atlantean DNA doesn't exist, so if it existed at all it must have been a known culture which we know by another name
3. There was no sunken island in the mid Atlantic. See 2

You seem to have been researching from nonsense pseudo history websites
take a look at National Geographic
genographic.nationalgeographic.com...
It has the benefit of at least being based on facts rather than assumption

Nice read OP.
I do believe they were the first cultivators of fine cannabis as well.

Another great thread Slayer I especially like the new techniques that we keep finding out about that are being used. These days carbon dating seems to have fallen by the way side as new and/or different methods get used.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: SLAYER69

If you look further West, you have little to match the dates or sizes of these hubs of civilisation.

care to give some examples?

One that comes to mind is Atlantis which we are told sunk

by a single source in all of antiquity. not quite a preponderance of evidence is it?

and as I don't doubt for one second it was in the Atlantic Ocean and settled on a T-junction of tectonic plates then we shouldn't be surprised it sunk.

so which of these plate boundaries was it at and where is the evidence for a sunken island at that location?

People certainly went from Europe to the Americas and a middle staging post would have made a lot of sense.

The archaeological, genetic and linguistic evidence doesn't remotely support this. The only tenable hypothesis, the Solutrean Hypothesis, without the discovery of some earth shaking new data, just doesn't hold any water despite its potential promise a few years ago. So no, there was no movement from Europe to the Americas that there is any evidence to support, prior to ~ 1000 years ago. Please feel free to show evidence to support your supposition though if you feel I am in error.

originally posted by: peter vlar
Please feel free to show evidence to support your supposition though if you feel I am in error.

Nobody hold their breath, it could be fatal

a reply to: Marduk

It's OK, I brought supplementary O2. It took me weeks to shake the migraines after the last time. I learned my lesson.