Elevating Women: What is in it for men?

Even before the Suffragette Movement started men were advocating for women's equality and reversing oppressive laws due to the fact that, it appears, a benefit to men via their children and grandchildren has to be achieved. Mainly for daughters and sons to marry advantageously, through education and personal wealth. Thus, women were allowed to own property and get a higher education...but not the vote. Enter the Suffragette Movement, where some if not most men advocates were intimate partners of the Suffragists.

voxeu.org...

www.nwhm.org...

With the sexual revolution (introduction of the pill) we see men's (and women's) lives improve greatly in many ways, again ( a mutual benefit) but a benefit for men must be achieved.

Today, the call for men to step up and address inequalities for all can only benefit us all.

www.heforshe.org...-action

As for elevating women in poor countries, if only the men there can be made to realize the benefits that can be reaped by elevating their women. It can only take momentum with the men up front and centre, otherwise it is a lost cause.

a reply to: InTheLight

I think it is reasonable to say that the countries with the worst rights for women tend to also have some of the most volatility with the west. Perhaps as more people from those areas move to the west or interact with the wast, our ideas of feminine equality move over to their countries. After all it happened in many of the countries in the west. It's not like every progressive European or Asian country all decided to advance women's rights all at once or anything. Clearly there is a migration of ideas as work here too.

a reply to: InTheLight

Funny how it took the introduction of Christianity, specifically the reformation to validate women in the west
The pill just turned them into sex objects, never recovered from that unfortunately

a reply to: InTheLight

The true and bottom line is that equality for women starts at home, not as a social or community environment. All it takes is one father to plant the seed in their sons mind "man up" and it's over.

The fact is that individual men always have this superiority complex over everyone, men and especially women, it's in our genetics. We strive to be the alpha, whether we like it or not, we want to be the most successful, our drive is to survive, fight rather than flight. Whereas women it's more towards the flight rather than fight. And when women lean towards the fight over flight, they have either grown up to be educated as such, or would make one hell of a mother.
The thing is, we without knowing it have been selectively bred by 'alpha' type males, looking and seeking out the more meek and submissive females.

That's the harsh truth.
But. There is another truth that a lot of people don't realize, is that humans evolved to benefit the brain, and as the brain becomes more complex, the less sex matters. Survival will become more of a choice, rather than an instinct. This is where education and family environment are very important. You can make all the internet-social and community postings you want, but like I said, all it takes is that one bad seed to be planted, and it'll take years to undo. Men have egos that you can mold like clay.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes, change in cultural norms through 'education' and 'seen' proven successes by others may help here, but, historically speaking, men need to see a benefit for their sons and daughters to step up and make unpopular changes and/or for themselves.

It is quite an interesting study, historically, socially (wealth and education) and psychologically. It seems here in the West any further elevation of women, some men feel they have to give something up.

I have to go now, but will study your varied cultural immersion theory a bit later and we, hopefully, can expand on it.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Yes, and we never really recovered from that backlash, as the stats show, sexual abuse is worse than ever.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: InTheLight

Funny how it took the introduction of Christianity, specifically the reformation to validate women in the west
The pill just turned them into sex objects, never recovered from that unfortunately

What are you talking about? Before Christianity women were largely held to the same standards as men in Native American culture. It wasn't until Christianity was introduced that the value of women dropped in American society. As far as Europe, that was influenced by roman culture as it spread the Roman Empire, which later forced its people within the Empire to become Christian, often with violent results for resistance.

So I have no idea what you are talking about here. Christianity as a whole is largely misogynist in general with that whole original sin crap, not letting women into the priesthood (again because of that original sin crap), and heck even the Virgin Mary myth perpetuates the idea that women who have sex are bad or evil (heck your post I'm quoting labels women as "sex objects" for taking the pill which is pretty misogynist as well). So if anything the introduction of Christianity strengthened misogynist feelings among a populace when it is introduced. It is secularism that is largely responsible for more equality for women.

a reply to: InTheLight

Well here's the thing. My idea isn't something that happens overnight. For instance, the suffrage movement you mentioned in your OP dates all the way back to the early 1900's (maybe earlier). Even now, over 100 years later women still aren't up to equal standards as men. In fact, now there is pushback from men as women get nearer and nearer to the equality mark.

It takes generational differences. I feel this is fueled by a rise in income, education level, and quality of life as an immigrant family moves to the west and over time they, then their offspring and their offspring's offspring all adapt and live within the society.

One of the more funny myths that immigration haters always say is how immigrants are going to drastically alter the culture of the place they will move to to reflect where they came from. This is such a silly notion. Sure there will be ideas and cultural mores that will be adopted by their new country, but the bigger change will be among the immigrants. As they have children and grandchildren, those kids will be better attuned to living within this new society and more open to supporting it. Thus THEIR actions and behaviors will more change to reflect their new society versus the one they came from. They will also have ties through their parents and other relatives to the original country. Through those channels, they can funnel these ideas back to them. Then slowly they catch on there too.

For instance, did you know that in China, there is a movement for labor rights starting to appear around the country? Clearly their kin who have been moving to the US for the last 100 or so years have seen the happiness and progress that labor laws generate and are starting to send these ideas home to their family members in China.

a reply to: InTheLight

Just out of curiosity, what benefits do you feel men are lacking?

The mere fact that there is still gender based disparity makes this puzzling. As it stands, women still do not have full autonomy regarding their own bodies.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: InTheLight

Funny how it took the introduction of Christianity, specifically the reformation to validate women in the west
The pill just turned them into sex objects, never recovered from that unfortunately

Previous to Christianity women had equal rights in many regions. Rome introduced things like women not being allowed to own property etc.

a reply to: InTheLight

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: InTheLight

Funny how it took the introduction of Christianity, specifically the reformation to validate women in the west
The pill just turned them into sex objects, never recovered from that unfortunately

What are you talking about? Before Christianity women were largely held to the same standards as men in Native American culture. It wasn't until Christianity was introduced that the value of women dropped in American society. As far as Europe, that was influenced by roman culture as it spread the Roman Empire, which later forced its people within the Empire to become Christian, often with violent results for resistance.

So I have no idea what you are talking about here. Christianity as a whole is largely misogynist in general with that whole original sin crap, not letting women into the priesthood (again because of that original sin crap), and heck even the Virgin Mary myth perpetuates the idea that women who have sex are bad or evil (heck your post I'm quoting labels women as "sex objects" for taking the pill which is pretty misogynist as well). So if anything the introduction of Christianity strengthened misogynist feelings among a populace when it is introduced. It is secularism that is largely responsible for more equality for women.

***Applause***

The introduction of Christianity to the west has been the driving force behind Misogyny and inequality on all levels. Not just with women, but slavery, racism, and bigotry. Christianity gets no pat on the back for furthering society.

a reply to: InTheLight

Women need no elevation in my world. It is hard to lift any higher that which is already at the top.

Regarding whether women need to be elevated socially, I just think equality should be the goal. I know women whose main objective is to be successful in their professional lives and they should have the same chance as a man. I know women who actually want to be a mother and have a family. For these women it is their perfect life. Yet they are frowned upon for not aspiring to a higher personal goal.

I don't think those women who want to be mothers should feel the societal pressure to be "more" as I don't think professional success is the only measure of worth.

originally posted by: InTheLight
Yes, change in cultural norms through 'education' and 'seen' proven successes by others may help here, but, historically speaking, men need to see a benefit for their sons and daughters to step up and make unpopular changes and/or for themselves.

Lets also consider society needs to convince women also that its a benefit to forego their intense biological coding to forego nurturing careers and paths (family, babies) in order to be all independent and stuff

They must be forced by western feminism to understand a traditional role as a woman, of which globally the sweeping majority embrace and love, is actually bad and they need to embrace high suicide rates and life dissatisfaction in order for them to be equal to men by their choices.
..because..progress
..or something.

The point is, women in the west have realized something...equality of opportunity is here, but that doesn't mean equality of outcome, and thats because women enjoy having the right to be empowered, but typically choose the innate desire to be a nurturing woman instead. only the fringe find that somehow despicable.
Because of that (biological drives), the earnings gap will be forever a thing, male leadership will be more common on the day to day (women seek out alphas, betas rarely breed, what will you teach your son)

originally posted by: Jonjonj
I don't think those women who want to be mothers should feel the societal pressure to be "more" as I don't think professional success is the only measure of worth.

Its funny, isn't it.

Women should be pressured into becoming equal to men and not want to be a housewife mother
..
meanwhile..
decline in happiness of women
Suicide rates at 30 year high Increase in 89% in women.

So the argument then is, women need to be equally miserable as men. Well, its working, they are actually becoming far more sad than men in their new high pressure do it yourself you are a feminist that needs no man mindset.

sad..but hey..equality..hooray n stuff.

a reply to: Raggedyman

In all reality, women always had a crucial role in humanity up through civilization. It is likely that women were the initial discoverers of the cyclic nature of the seasons, animal husbandry, and domestication of plants and agriculture in general.

Matriarchal societies are not uncommon, excepting the modern era where a patriarchal society took a stranglehold on the entire planet. Women, prior to Abrahamic religions, were highly valued within a society. The sheer abundance of neolithic venus figures found would seem to indicate as much, anyway.

a reply to: Klassified

My favorite example to drive this home is Ben Franklin's comparison of the "Savages" (said tongue in cheek) to English Americans in the colonies. He basically calls them more civilized and compassionate while describing his brethren as war like and awful.

Remarks Concerning the Savages of North America

Here's an excerpt that deals with the OP's topic. As you can see the women attend important meetings with important roles within them. In this case they are functioning as secretaries, but the way they are described shows a greater importance than how we treat secretaries (in say the 1950's for instance).

Having frequent occasions to hold public Councils, they have acquired great Order and Decency in conducting them. The old Men sit in the foremost Ranks, the warriors in the next, and the Women and Children in the hindmost. The business of the Women is to take exact notice of what passes, Imprint it in their memories, for they have no Writing, and communicate it to their children. They are the Records of the Council, and they preserve traditions of the Stipulations in Treaties a hundred Years back, which when we compare with our Writings we always find exact.

a reply to: InTheLight

Being married to a strong independent woman is my greatest accomplishment in life. I wouldn't be half the man or accomplished half the things I have without her. I of course only use "I" in the context of this conversation, I really mean "we accomplished."

With that said, I have a saying I like to use when speaking about why other countries don't have equal rights, and struggle with simple issues as letting a woman vote, get a job or dress how she chooses...

Strong Women for Strong Men, Weak Women for Weak Men.

They are weak and insecure so seek to oppress their women and keep them weak to match themselves.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Jonjonj
I don't think those women who want to be mothers should feel the societal pressure to be "more" as I don't think professional success is the only measure of worth.

Its funny, isn't it.

Women should be pressured into becoming equal to men and not want to be a housewife mother
..
meanwhile..
decline in happiness of women
Suicide rates at 30 year high Increase in 89% in women.

So the argument then is, women need to be equally miserable as men. Well, its working, they are actually becoming far more sad than men in their new high pressure do it yourself you are a feminist that needs no man mindset.

sad..but hey..equality..hooray n stuff.

It could almost be construed as a desire by men to allow women into our " world of pain"

I give the ladies more credit on the common sense front.