KPB's Friendly Chat about Jacques Vallee, "The Control Loop" and other Pseudo-science

Hi everyone!

I'm posting in "Chat" as I'm hoping for a more friendly and informal discourse,
without all the adrenaline, testosterone, dopamine&seratonin spikes (dominance
and posturing for social status and advantage). I'm hoping for relaxed discussion
between people who often yell at each other, intentionally or unintentionally.
I'm guilty of this too.. that's why I'm not posting this in Aliens and UFOs,
Metaphysics, Skunksworks or any of the other forums where this post might fit..
as this post is not really about any one thing, but rather about many subjects,
loosely clustering around things written by Jacques Vallee. Also, all manner
of incorrect things are attributed to Dr. Valee, and as I know the man personally,
I don't like to see him misquoted.

Ok, for those of you who don't know Dr. Vallee, here is snippet regarding him:

en.wikipedia.org...
Jacques Fabrice Vallée (French: [vale]; born September 24, 1939) is a venture capitalist, computer scientist, author, ufologist and former astronomer currently residing in San Francisco, California. In mainstream science, Vallée is notable for co-developing the first computerized mapping of Mars for NASA and for his work at SRI International on the network information center for the ARPANET, a precursor to the modern Internet. Vallée is also an important figure in the study of unidentified flying objects (UFOs), first noted for a defense of the scientific legitimacy of the extraterrestrial hypothesis and later for promoting the interdimensional hypothesis.

Dr. Vallee's UFOlogical background:

en.wikipedia.org...
UFO research and academic work[edit] In May 1955, Vallée first sighted an unidentified flying object over his Pontoise home. Six years later in 1961, while working on the staff of the French Space Committee, Vallée witnessed the destruction of the tracking tapes of an unknown object orbiting the earth. The particular object was a retrograde satellite – that is, a satellite orbiting the earth in the opposite direction to the earth's rotation. At the time he observed this, there were no rockets powerful enough to launch such a satellite, so the team was quite excited as they assumed that the Earth's gravity had captured a natural satellite (asteroid). A superior came and erased the tape. These events contributed to Vallée's long-standing interest in the UFO phenomenon. In the mid-1960s, like many other UFO researchers, Vallée initially attempted to validate the popular Extraterrestrial Hypothesis (or ETH). Leading UFO researcher Jerome Clark[5] argues that Vallée's first two UFO books were among the most scientifically sophisticated defenses of the ETH ever mounted. However, by 1969, Vallée's conclusions had changed, and he publicly stated that the ETH was too narrow and ignored too much data. Vallée began exploring the commonalities between UFOs, cults, religious movements, demons, angels, ghosts, cryptid sightings, and psychic phenomena. Speculation about these potential links were first detailed in Vallée's third UFO book, Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers.

A bit about the IDH:

en.wikipedia.org...
The interdimensional hypothesis (IDH or IH), is an idea advanced by Ufologists such as Jacques Vallée that says unidentified flying objects (UFOs) and related events involve visitations from other "realities" or "dimensions" that coexist separately alongside our own. It is an alternative to the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH).[1][2][3][4] IDH also holds that UFOs are a modern manifestation of a phenomenon that has occurred throughout recorded human history, which in prior ages were ascribed to mythological or supernatural creatures.[2]

en.wikipedia.org...
One advantage of IDH proffered by Hilary Evans is its ability to explain the apparent ability of UFOs to appear and disappear from sight and radar; this is explained as the UFO entering and leaving our dimension ("materializing" and "dematerializing"). Moreover, Evans argues that if the other dimension is slightly more advanced than ours, or is our own future, this would explain the UFOs' tendency to represent near future technologies (airships in the 1890s, rockets and supersonic travel in the 1940s, etc.).[10] IDH has been a causative factor in establishing UFO religion.[1]

These are some of JV's major written works on unusual subjects:

Jacques Vallee Personal Research - Books
Jacques Vallee Personal Research - Papers

My association with Dr. Vallee
A lot of people call me a "fan boy" of JV, and I take no offense at that.. the man is an elder statesman of the collision between science and fringe topics. How can't I love him? ;-)

But we are hardly BFF's. JV is a friend of a friend of mine, a well-published physicist, and after I had my 2013 "Black Triangle UFO" encounter, I was interested in meeting the man to discuss that encounter, and my life's work on anomalous topics. Fortunately he was interested in meeting me as well.
So we discussed "life the Universe and Everything" for about 6 hours. That's been my major contact, although we stay in occasional touch. He's quite a man, JV is. Quite a man.

I would like to make it very clear, that JV and I have nice conversations, but he didn't share any "earthshaking secrets with me", and as a matter of fact, the things I discussed with him were often more fringe than the things he discussed with me. Perhaps he humors me somewhat; he is a very polite gentleman. But that is neither here nor there.

I'm starting this thread to discuss various of JV's ideas, books and interviews, and would welcome anyone's polite input. We aren't trying to solve the great mysteries of life in this thread, so I do hope we can keep it polite.

Now before proceeding on, I would like to address the "Aviary angle".

There are these urban legends about this shadowy masters of mahem, mostly physicists who are also occultists, who supposedly hold "all the good secrets" the "government and others have".

Here is a common link:

The Aviary - A Tin Foil Hat Overview

This one is far less hysterical:

A more balanced look at "the aviary"

My Personal Take on the "Aviary"
I think it's much more modern mythology than anything, and yes, I know some of the people in this circle. Again, not BFF's.

I do know that JV is a man of utmost character, and would never lie or distort information. Don't believe me, read about the Pentacle Memorandum:

The Pentacle Memorandum

Do a few of the top minds out there have some very interesting data and "hints" about what's going on here on planet Earth?

Yes, I think so----hints.

I'd say the "government" knows far less than people think that they do. The core reality behind all this stuff has been magnified to the point of utter ridiculousness.

I don't always agree, but I love reading your posts. I always learn something new. It'll ltake me a while to get through this one, as I've got a few things I've got to do first, but I'm sure it won't disappoint.

S&F

I would be amiss not to shout out to "The GUT". When i first came to ATS about 3 years ago, I knew exactly nothing about "UFOs", and not even a heck of a lot about "The Trickster". I'd spent 55 years staring at my navel, researching Kundalini Yoga, Shamanism and things like that.. but not by reading books really.. it's a long story. But in any case, I was really under-educated about a lot of things that a lot of people knew about. In coming to ATS, and by studying "UFOs", I burned a lot of bridges; but I'm glad that I did. You can learn more about the "Control Loop" by studying so-called "UFOs" than you can by studying mysticism or parapsychology. But I digress.

Here are some very educational and formative posts made by "The GUT", which I respect in many ways, other than my own insight is somewhat different now due to meeting some people. But I recommend these posts hands down, for background reading.

Dr. Jacques Vallee - The Control System
The Men in Black, Aviary and UFOs
Electromagnetism, UFOs, and the Weaponization of Alien Technology

I would also like to shout out to "MirageMan" as his posts on the disinformation about "UFOs" are nearly always invaluable.. as we cannot get to the bottom of this "phenomenon" until we remove all the nonsense covering what's really going on.. and 'what's really going on" probably has NOTHING to do with aliens in nuts and bolts ships coming to visit us. Well that's what everyone I know personally thinks. Your mileage may vary.

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

I nearly always star and flag you, whether I agree with you or not. But I often agree with you.

I'm in the rather unusual situation of being a skeptic much like you and others, but I do have a "niche" that I research and discuss that is "crazy woo stuff".

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Well hello my Sherman!

This thread sounds really interesting. I've read some of Dr. Vallee's writing, but not nearly enough.
My participation will likely be mostly questions, but I'm definitely going to be following this thread.

I would like to know how much the government really does know. As for the 'core reality'...who are the people who DO know the truth? See...I warned you there'd be questions.
jacy

a reply to: jacygirl

My name is not Peabody --- that is someone else!

Welcome Flaming Ferret Wench, always a pleasure to have you around..

Ask anything you want. As always.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Can't help but grin, lol...best nickname EVER!

Okay...do you believe that the 'core group' behind this control system are the same group that David Icke refers to as "Reptilians"?

Just noticed that I've missed a couple of replies above, so going back to get caught up. Will reserve questions in case they've already been answered.
jacy

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Hello there, very nice thread.

As soon as I finish Passport to Magonia I'll join you, but I'll be reading along for now.

B x

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

You get a star for linking The Gut posts.
Some of my first reads on ATS as well.
The rest is going to take some time but I'll be hovering around here somewhere.
Interesting as always.
Cheers.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Great thread! I am learning.

originally posted by: jacygirl
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Can't help but grin, lol...best nickname EVER!

Okay...do you believe that the 'core group' behind this control system are the same group that David Icke refers to as "Reptilians"?

Just noticed that I've missed a couple of replies above, so going back to get caught up. Will reserve questions in case they've already been answered.
jacy

Come on now.. you hung out in BD's thread with me all that time, and you are asking me this?

You should know that I "believe" in just a few 'woo things':

1) 99.99999999% (or some such) of the sentient life in the Universe exists in the form of coherent energy civilizations, and we humans are at best a "hybrid" of organic creature and one of these species. What others might call a "tulpa" or "soul" I call a "cold dark plasma symbiote" or something of that nature.

2) That one or more of these species have shared the Earth with us from the very beginning.. they in fact probably evolved FROM US; they needed a proper environment to evolve within.. (us) just like single cells probably needed a crystaline marix near a deep ocean "smoker" in order to evolve. I believe this to my toes.. The "angels/demons/djinn" etc. (metaphors) did not come first, they came second---that's why they lie about coming first--their little egos can't take it.

3) I believe in strong temporary "EM"-like manifestations like poltergeists, "deities" such as the "Christian deity", etc.
but they were created by the belief of humans, and if humans stop believing in them, they die out.

4) That UFO's are a modern mythos in the forming, but are the same old cold,dark,symbiotic plasma creatures from way back.. except when they are: deception, misinformation, misidentification.

5) I do "believe in" a "frog/lizard/with feathers" thing that has been named "space imp" by others, that may be the first species which evolved in our Universe and they are little stinker butts who cause a lot of trouble. "Shaman" have seen them for a very long time.. call them "spirits". But they may be post technological singularity creatures who just happen to inhabit the inhabited part of the Universe (not the mostly empty physical universe).

But I don't believe in "Reptilians".

Now "space imps" and "Tulpas" might appear like a "Reptillian", but i don't believe in their separate "real" existence.

Kev

We can discuss "my theories, sure". But I hope we can discuss a lot of JV. Here is one of his more recent interviews:

Interview with UFO researcher and author Jacques Vallee

All following snippets are considered fair use for discussion with the above reference:

Q1: How do you see ufology and ufological activity in 15-20 years ? What will fundamentally change — or won’t ? We shouldn’t be surprised if we see an increase in these manifestations as humanity goes on to a new step of systematic exploration of space. But the question should be addressed to the phenomenon itself: It has shown that it was diverse, adaptable and unpredictable. It also showed that it was fundamentally interested in our technological progress and our technical prototypes.

Now I can see why JV says this. The "Phenomenon" has been waving around apparitions about 20 years ahead of our technology since we crawled out of the caves presumably. For example the 1896 airship wave is a good example:

1896 Mystery Airship Wave

People like to say that "UFOs" started happening due to Nuclear bombs or World War II Nazis or what not --- BZZZT! Wrong! at least that is the opinion of people who read JV. These Phenomenon go back to before the wheel was invented I think.

But really.. IMHO the Phenomenon is more interested in 'us' and our 'metaphors' and possibly "bonding with us" than our technology per se. Humans are already like a hybrid of Chimpanzee and Tools---we have been since the very beginning.

I disagree with JV for what it's worth.. the "technology" may not be the important thing.. maybe we are being shown "the future" to get us to "evolve". On other worlds, the Phenomenon might manifest as art or music or something else.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Lol...yes I've mostly known what you believe from that other great thread, but with a lot of conversation thrown in it was clear as mud. Now that you've taken the time to write it all out like that (thank you, by the way)...at least we all know what your belief is...and that should make it easier for the rest of us.

I will be honest that I don't know what I believe...still. I haven't ever seen a UFO or 'alien'...or even a ghost/spirit...but I have seen white orbs fly past me (and have oodles of pics).

I too remember reading stuff by The Gut long ago when I just lurked here. Will definitely read the links you've posted. Threads like this/these are well worth re-reading.
jacy

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

It would be interesting to have an AMA with Mr. Vallee. Since you know him, perhaps you could work with ATS owners and Mr. Vallee to arrange it?

Just an idea. I know he is a busy man.

AB

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
JV's ideas aren't completely new, but they are a definite improvement on ancient ideas of this phenomenon. His ideas, and yours specifically remind me of the Muses(Zeus's 9 daughters) who were over the arts and sciences. If we look at the mythology surrounding the Gods, and in your immediate post, we see some parallels with ID's. Zeus had a habit of popping in and out of our reality, as do the Muses, when they lead or nurture humans in the arts and sciences. One could go so far as to say, Zeus is the embodiment of, or creator of the "control loop".

Obviously, I'm giving a loose example from one time frame. The same could be implied with other times and gods/goddesses. It is the Greek gods however, that in my mind fit the bill, in relation to the Muses. Nevertheless, the Hindu gods and goddesses might run a close second.

S&F for the OP, and for referencing TheGUT. A man I have much respect for, regardless of our baser disagreements.

ETA: For an idea of what I'm talking about, there is an old movie that is about as cheesy and campy as they come, called Xanadu. It deals with the very idea I'm espousing, and in my opinion, was worth sitting through for that alone. It goes a bit further than I would but the example is there, shrouded in a less than serious story.

a reply to: AboveBoard

I've thought about asking him. But he's not the biggest fan of the Internet that he helped create.. not what it's become.. a repository of craziness, more than the learning tool that he no doubt hoped for.

But yes, it would be quite the AMA.

Kev

a reply to: Klassified

Yes, I concur that "the Phenomenon" is "leading us" "somewhere".

Where that is, might be to "their" benefit and not ours however.

I mean, look at this destroyed, plastic trash heap of world we are creating.

I agree with Vallee however, that saying the Phenomenon is "good" or "evil" is premature.

And I personally think that "the Phenomenon" is tightly interwoven into the mass of human brains in this world; WE ARE THE MATRIX FOR "them". Our 7 billion brains are their hardware.

And the "matrix" that we are caught in, is our own silly and stanky culture.

I also suspect that their hooks into us are routed through a non-contiguous space with our space/time, so that we could never catch them in the act of 'tapping into us' without their permission.

I know that this sounds like a "invisible pink unicorn in the garage" sort of nonsense... i don't say these things lightly.

Kev

Ok, back to commenting on Dr. Vallee's interview here:

Jacques Vallee Interview

Q2: Who is the thinker, the intellectual or the researcher you admire the most and why? Maybe you have noticed it while reading Science Interdite: I found a great source of inspiration in Aimé Michel, a remarkable spirit by the strength of his vision and the deep humanity of his intellect. The fact that such a thinker has been ignored and even despised by the intellectual elite in France is not a compliment to our country. However, the limited number of people who have known him have had a great privilege. According to Aimé, Ufos were only a mystery among others. He was a universal thinker.

When I met Jacques, he mentioned Aime Michel. That man apparently made quite the impression on him, for Jacques to discuss him a bit after almost 50 years. It would be interesting to study anything that he left behind.

Q3: What is the current scientific discipline which would be able to benefit ufology and its achievement? I can think of two disciplines whose application is urgent: computer science of course, with data-mining , and medicine which has never been applied to a real study of long term effects on witnesses of close encounters. Beyond this, of course, physics must take the subject as an “existence theorem” to understand physical reality in a broader sense.

Dr. Vallee is working on compiling UFO data into databases the last I heard, in particular the pre-1900 sightings that don't get enough daylight like they should. (when JV says something should be done - he leaps up and does it if possible!).

I very much agree that medicine is another great area. I mean, just the Project Condign type effects would be invaluable to understand:

Reference:
en.wikipedia.org...

But I myself think that the so-called "Kundalini Phenomennon" and "high strangeness UFOs" (UAP's) are actually joined at the hip. If there really IS a connection hidden in the body between us and "The Other; the Phenomenon", then it would behoove us to find it!

I believe personally that the biology of high strangeness is our best chance at the next step to understanding this "control system" which has us in it's grasp; or in a manner of speaking, we have ourselves in our own "chinese finger torture" grasp.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I would also like to shout out to "MirageMan" as his posts on the disinformation about "UFOs" are nearly always invaluable.. as we cannot get to the bottom of this "phenomenon" until we remove all the nonsense covering what's really going on.. and 'what's really going on" probably has NOTHING to do with aliens in nuts and bolts ships coming to visit us. Well that's what everyone I know personally thinks.

Well it never started out that way Kev. I really had no intention of becoming a "de-bunker" of UFO disinformation. From a very young age I have always had an interest in the UFO topic. But growing up in the 70s I also had a keen interest in the post-Apollo space programs. In fact I still have a casual interest in space exploration. It really is fascinating.

So I always look at any UFO case from the two angles and try to retain a neutral standpoint.

Unfortunately the tales told by many of the "UFOtainers" (people locked in financially to telling UFO stories in books at conferences and on paranormal TV & radio shows) often do not hold up well against the scientific data in many cases. Nor does any "US Government Conspiracy" involving deals with alien races really hold up well either. The anatomy of such a huge cover-up involving allies and enemies and keeping a lid on it for 70 years without a single shred of 'real' tangible evidence leaking out seems unlikely. Given the information that does leak out these days about governments all around the world and the fact that we know 3 letter agencies have long been 'poisoning' the waters.

It doesn't mean alien spacecraft aren't visiting the Earth or at least haven't in our past. But if it has happened then my conclusion is that it was a very rare, possibly unique, event. Probably involving 'machine intelligence' rather than living breeding sentient beings if it ever happened. Or indeed it could well be 'life as we don't know it' like your theories.

My problem is that too many people are invested in 'Roswell' or any other cases as being "aliens" and cannot or will not accept any attack on their long held views nurtured by the UFOtainers. Some of who only deal with one or two cases as well. Same for the hardcore debunkers who pour scorn on any and every case because they know better.

If we truly want to solve this mystery we have to challenge our own beliefs with an open mind but a 'skeptical' eye.

Ok, more comments on the Interview:

Jacques Vallee Interview

Q4 : How are consciousness and Ufos related ? What role does consciousness play in Ufo manifestations? We have seen ufos as classical spaceships for a long time, in accordance with science fiction in the forties and fifties. This interpretation persists, especially in France where recent breakthrough of parapsychology are not well known and where psychic effects reported by witnesses are considered either as evidences of mental weakness or as electromagnetic side effects. Yet, as documentation improves, we find out that the physical aspects of the phenomenon are as negotiable as its psychic effects: it is as if it took control of a given area, including witnesses’ perceptions. It is that aspect that discouraged Aimé Michel.

My view is that human consciousness sits on top of the hooks "the Phenomenon" has integrated within our bodies.
But Dr. Vallee doesn't go in that direction.

But as he says above: "it is as if it took control of a given area, including witnesses’ perceptions".

I completely concur with this observation.

This very thing is what has made "cracking the UFO conundrum" seemingly impossible. The entire "game" is "rigged", not just psychologically, but physically.

I get asked about "zones" all the time by people who know me. I'm big on "zones of control".

For example, in the old Vampire movies, vampires and other "supernatural" creatures must often be invited into ones home, or they cannot entire.

This TV nonsense seems to be based on real folklore, and I suspect it's based on more than that.

I suspect that various humans, and various parts of the world are interpenetrated with "zones of control" of some sort.
Meaning that say (to use a metaphor), you need the permission of "crime boss A" to enter his area, of you are a persona working for "crime boss B".

I can't begin to understand the rules of this.

But I can give two examples from my own life:

1) My 2013 "Black Triangle UFO Encounter" may have been "only for me". There could have been someone standing right next to me, who saw nothing, while I saw this mammoth, shape-changing UAP. Now, if the rules were supposed to go that way, I suspect others might have seen it.. but I'm surprised the entire city didn't. I assure you, I was not having a "simple hallucination", unless taking out the plastic recycling has this effect on people. And it would also presumably be possible for radar traces, and residues left behind---if that's the 'script'. I myself do not care for "matrix type thinking", but the power of the Phenomenon seems massive to say the least.

2) I have seen many people "invite entities" into themselves.. and guess what? Something definitely happens.. now yes, it could be simple mental illness. But people who are staunch disbelievers tend to be safe, no matter how "vicious" the "demon" might be. Well that's the trick...permission must be given for a zone to be entered... even the zone of "our bodies". When I spent something like 30 years researching "Kundalini", I quickly learned that the Invitation, and how the Invitation was crafted was utterly essential, or nothing would happen.

Until this 'zone-type' thinking is researched, I don't think any significant progress will be made with understanding UAP's and UFOs.

Kev