Atenism-Judaism-Freemasonry

a reply to: ImaFungi

The problem in waking up as it were and realizing that the greater part of your religious tradition is totally ridiculous as far as the Near East and Egypt went was that there were traditions regarding the establishment of the religion which were held to have been transmitted by Divine intermediaries and which had been conservatively upheld, calling the beliefs into question also had to call into question those sources, hence the Hebrew tradition of the Fall, a formerly considered omniscient factor thus becomes the epitome of lies.

For that reason the Hebrews went after the supposed descendants of the Nephilim looking to eradicate all such persons and teachings, they still look to establish such total dominance, but given that any contact which led to such traditions had to have taken place long before the historical period then it's likely a great deal had been lost in translation, and even more likely that any such contact would have left it up to us to figure out the Cosmology whilst introducing certain important principles based upon metaphor of the easily observed.

They did make every effort to restore Egyptian religion to what it had been before Akhenaten, but it had lost something along the way, conviction, and underwent a slow lingering demise, i don't see considering singular truths as wrong but obviously things can become unbalanced, the Mesopotamians were entirely capable of seeing Anu in terms of a Universal singularity, but of course would have been horrified at the thought of only recognizing him, so yes i would caution against Deism.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: ImaFungi


For that reason the Hebrews went after the supposed descendants of the Nephilim looking to eradicate all such persons and teachings, they still look to establish such total dominance, but given that any contact which led to such traditions had to have taken place long before the historical period then it's likely a great deal had been lost in translation, and even more likely that any such contact would have left it up to us to figure out the Cosmology whilst introducing certain important principles based upon metaphor of the easily observed.

Ok, supposed descendants of the Nephilim being, egyptians, or who? And in what case/s did the Hebrews look to and even come near succeeding in eradicating people? Or are you suggesting the Hebrews...we can say jews... attempted to cover up that they themselves were not descendants of Nephilim, by making descendants of Nephilim feel guilty about such, and making Nephilim appear inferior compared to jewish concept of God, and compelled descendants of nephilim to believe in concept of God, via christianity?

Are egyptians and/or europeans descendants of Nephilim?

a reply to: ImaFungi

The answer to any of those questions is of course quite complex, but i think it's better to think in terms of certain population groups undergoing enhancements with regards to facilitating specific developments, for example the creation of a population group say in the core Neolithic group that had an aptitude for agricultural development, the trickle down effect from that expanding across the globe, a group in the Balkans with aptitude for mining and metallugy as well as engineering, those are proto-modern European population groups but there were initiatives elsewhere.

Certainly no intention to create evil giants and the resulting line of descent is anything but a weird ancient bloodline lurking in Transylvania, the Hebrews did seem to be aware of lingering traditions in Northern Syria of population groups that had experianced contact, despite determining that they were the misbegotten spawn of Demon they were happy to take the basis of their matriarchal line from that population group and breed for success themselves.

Their position then has been based on misunderstandings, resentments and attempts at counter development, which they're actually so good at they've pretty much managed to control the world, there can be no question in the prevailing paradigm of benevolent contact, humanity needs to be united against a perceived Alien threat, or failing that Trump will do, and all the rest of the current madness and social engineering, wasn't meant to turn out like this...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: ImaFungi

The answer to any of those questions is of course quite complex, but i think it's better to think in terms of certain population groups undergoing enhancements with regards to facilitating specific developments, for example the creation of a population group say in the core Neolithic group that had an aptitude for agricultural development, the trickle down effect from that expanding across the globe, a group in the Balkans with aptitude for mining and metallugy as well as engineering, those are proto-modern European population groups but there were initiatives elsewhere.

Certainly no intention to create evil giants and the resulting line of descent is anything but a weird ancient bloodline lurking in Transylvania, the Hebrews did seem to be aware of lingering traditions in Northern Syria of population groups that had experianced contact, despite determining that they were the misbegotten spawn of Demon they were happy to take the basis of their matriarchal line from that population group and breed for success themselves.

Their position then has been based on misunderstandings, resentments and attempts at counter development, which they're actually so good at they've pretty much managed to control the world, there can be no question in the prevailing paradigm of benevolent contact, humanity needs to be united against a perceived Alien threat, or failing that Trump will do, and all the rest of the current madness and social engineering, wasn't meant to turn out like this...

Interesting; The madness and social engineering wasn't meant to turn out like this;

Who is responsible for the madness and social engineering, and how was it meant to turn out?

And 'their position then has...', 'their' then being the hebrews, hinting at the 'evil zionist jew' trope?

Are you suggesting the real and true human earthly religion; or at least the proper human religion for those humans whom you really believe descended from 'aliens', is to worship them; as it seems was done according to ancient historical sources?

a reply to: Kantzveldt
I really wish I could recall what I was reading recently, but it proved to me that ancient peoples had spherical theories long before your average person supposes.

A friend once showed me a temple complex in Egypt that was theorized to be modeled after the rays of the sun, and I think you are correct in your theory that the rays somehow indicated that the earth is spherical.

Venus plays a strong part in every conspiracy connected with pentagrams, lucifer, pagan rituals. I do know that in South America Venus was connected to Quetzalcoatl and other gods.

Now your image of the Dream Stela, the pentagrams remind me of the unicursal hexagram, as seen co-opted by Crowley and his New Age goons. I sincerely doubt they understood the true meaning behind it.

But on your image, they are superimposed, no? I have not been able to source a photo which shows them. Are they added to illustrate the theory, or is it to showcase something difficult to make out with the naked eye?

Speaking of making out, I am imagining Akhenaten in his temple nightclub dancing to your House of the Rising Sun til dawn, popping blue lotus as it were!

a reply to: ImaFungi
In general yes, the traditional Egyptian view was to worship the sun as it gave light, warmth, security, and by extension everything due to its necessity in all life. It is the creator, per se. Various groups within and throughout history have promoted the notion of "worship the creator, not the creation" and this lays down the foundation of freemasonry, rather wholly.

This is generally more associated with monotheism, however. The Persians (particularly through Zoroastrianism) established the monotheism we know today, despite being somewhat dualistic in their beliefs.

To your later question, the birth of the Hebrews, this is a hotly debated contention. But according to the Torah, Abraham (the patriarchal ancestor) came out of Ur (called "Ur of the Chaldees"), which is in Mesopotamia. All evidence (particularly the cultural and judicial references in the bible) point to the fact that the Hebrews were Mesopotamians who simply branched off for ideological rather than racial reasons. The bible does have several passages indicating that they looked no different from their captors (Assyrians et al). But then again, black hair is the most common in the world, and light brown skin is certainly common as well.

Other people believe there is a connection between the Hebrews and the nomadic Habiru
who harassed and raided the Egyptian and Akkadian kingdoms. Habiru/Apiru/Sa.Gaz are various words seeming to refer to the same group and which means "bandit". As there are no seeming language or cultural necessities to belong to the group, it may support Tacitus' supposition that they were a group of exiles from various tribes who strengthened their numbers with further unwanted individuals...

The Torah says that there were 12 tribes of Israelites and it seems to me absurd that they should be split if they truly were homogeneous. The story of the 12 sons of Jacob et al occur to me to be more of a myth designed to unify differing peoples, rather than any serious discourse on history. Claiming that everyone is descended from the same patriarch is a political move, likewise to what we discussed with ascribing Sargon's origin mythology to Moses in an attempt to explain how an Egyptian was *actually* a member of their tribe all along.

I disagree with any notion of ancient alien contact, but the historical result ends up the same regardless. Some tribes believed that their rivals were descended from a profane source which, in my opinion, is no different from modern peoples claiming other religions or ideologies are evil as justification for their extermination. Once again it boils down to mythology being utilized as a political tool, eliminating those who might be a threat to your power.

In Judges and other texts it clearly notes that the Hebrews exterminated "every breathing thing" from cities, and archaeology shows they built temples atop ancient pagan ones. This would seem to be symbolic of supplanting the old ways, which this thread is intrinsically about.

originally posted by: SargonThrall

Venus plays a strong part in every conspiracy connected with pentagrams, lucifer, pagan rituals. I do know that in South America Venus was connected to Quetzalcoatl and other gods.

Anyway... My theory is that Quetzalcoatl is like their representation of the archetype, of the enlightened philosopher, maybe mystic (generally meaning inspired by chemicals maybe... so this is an archetype of civilization, Zoroaster, the soro... something I saw Kantzveldt mention was related to zoroaster, Jesus, Akhenaten, the shaman, the indias had their enlightened philosopher heros, Plato, Immanuel Kant, the concept of lucifer, morning star, (enlightened, bright, brilliance, luciferous, the serpent; serpent, simplicity, logic, a more or less line that can move forward, back, left, right, up down)(bright, light, vision...sun...)... (feathers, birds, birds eye view, being able to see a lot, looking down upon earth, , objectivity)

a reply to: ImaFungi
Without going too far off topic... No. The figure in the centre is a solar deity inside the glyph for "movement". The implication therein, that the calendar revolves around the sun.

Of course this is the Aztec, and I can't speak for the Mayan, though I suppose it should be the same (under a different name).

The tongue implement may be a sacrificial ware. Tongues were often used in bloodletting - Lady Xoc pulling a cord through her tongue in Yaxchilan, and Aztec sacrifice from Codex Magliabecchiano, below:



Why should you think the calendars to be modern and fake? Why are they creepy to you? These cultures simply studied the movements in the sky and learned how to record it.

originally posted by: SargonThrall
a reply to: ImaFungi
In general yes, the traditional Egyptian view was to worship the sun as it gave light, warmth, security, and by extension everything due to its necessity in all life. It is the creator, per se. Various groups within and throughout history have promoted the notion of "worship the creator, not the creation" and this lays down the foundation of freemasonry, rather wholly.

Free .... Mason.

Free, freedom.

Mason; (a free) builder, constructer, brick layer, creator.

Maybe?

But not entirely free of course, but perhaps, the idea, of greater potentials of freedom available via certain disciplines, via gaining knowledge, via dedication to creating properly, ones self, and ones environment.

To your later question, the birth of the Hebrews, this is a hotly debated contention. But according to the Torah, Abraham (the patriarchal ancestor) came out of Ur (called "Ur of the Chaldees"), which is in Mesopotamia. All evidence (particularly the cultural and judicial references in the bible) point to the fact that the Hebrews were Mesopotamians who simply branched off for ideological rather than racial reasons. The bible does have several passages indicating that they looked no different from their captors (Assyrians et al). But then again, black hair is the most common in the world, and light brown skin is certainly common as well.

Yes I see, and perhaps it is possible, in the span of 100s of years (?) for a smallish group of people, who were used to living in a particular area for 100s of years, to then move to a different area, with potentially different foods and weather patterns etc, with a smaller pool of candidate reproductive mates, for some adaptations to take place; or I mean, who knows in what ways inbreeding (maybe even on cousin levels) took place and the effect for that to start to alter appearance, or even just the vast potential for two peoples children to come out a variety of different ways. ( I of course have no idea the nature of how 'is it ethnicity''s are settled/started)

Other people believe there is a connection between the Hebrews and the nomadic Habiru
who harassed and raided the Egyptian and Akkadian kingdoms. Habiru/Apiru/Sa.Gaz are various words seeming to refer to the same group and which means "bandit". As there are no seeming language or cultural necessities to belong to the group, it may support Tacitus' supposition that they were a group of exiles from various tribes who strengthened their numbers with further unwanted individuals...

The Torah says that there were 12 tribes of Israelites and it seems to me absurd that they should be split if they truly were homogeneous. The story of the 12 sons of Jacob et al occur to me to be more of a myth designed to unify differing peoples, rather than any serious discourse on history. Claiming that everyone is descended from the same patriarch is a political move, likewise to what we discussed with ascribing Sargon's origin mythology to Moses in an attempt to explain how an Egyptian was *actually* a member of their tribe all along.

Thanks for this interesting info; I guess part of the difficulty is knowing how long a semi secluded group of people lived and reproduced together in an area until they started sharing common DNA traits, but regardless it seems by what you say it is thought the 12 tribes of israelites were something of mutts, and perhaps the 12 tribes had more in common, ethnically, then say with other ethnicities, but perhaps the 12 tribes had not as much in common with each other, as say a single ethnicity...1 tribe... would have?

Is it also potentially possible to consider how humans could have more in common with humans of different ethnicities then of their own, this is maybe to say, there are larger common traits between humans then potential traits contained in ethnicity; such as perhaps, extreme size and strength, great hunter, great fisher, great chef, great builder, great musician... that across all human cultures these types of humans, may have more in common with each other than individuals of their own ethnicity, but yes that is different topic, the gene features are similar,.. behavior, individual thought process is another story, its late, im lost.

I disagree with any notion of ancient alien contact, but the historical result ends up the same regardless. Some tribes believed that their rivals were descended from a profane source which, in my opinion, is no different from modern peoples claiming other religions or ideologies are evil as justification for their extermination. Once again it boils down to mythology being utilized as a political tool, eliminating those who might be a threat to your power.

I do not have a clue about the potential or truth of ancient alien contact. But yes I agree, it seems it would boil down to racism.

In Judges and other texts it clearly notes that the Hebrews exterminated "every breathing thing" from cities, and archaeology shows they built temples atop ancient pagan ones. This would seem to be symbolic of supplanting the old ways, which this thread is intrinsically about.

Ok thanks. And wondering if supplanting old ways is good or bad, or just interesting, or just fact, meaningless, purposeful, valuable, worthy? Or do we just see things have came full circle, via secularism, as fundamentally, something of the highest value is agreed to be something of freedom of thought and expression; though I would note that, 'law' is the ~agreeable limiter of certain freedoms, and just perhaps in the past there was the need for there to be stricter marriage between the agreed to laws of a people and the belief that great powers beyond such peoples wanted such peoples to obey those laws, if not only for the peoples sake, for the ease of the rulers of those peoples sake; but yes, not much later we get the ten commandments, which if I am not mistaken (I certainly possess my fair share of ignorance on these and most subjects) was quite influential, and to degrees quite reasonable, agreeable, and ~universal; so when peoples get too carried away with the infinitudes of human freedom, there was a counter force to attempt to combat such, which is the desire for order, control, etc. but I mean, interestingly enough, and quite great, this thread, the title, the crux, that time period, those events, those past few thousands of years, was the path too our current modernity, to our belief in balance between freedom and agreeable laws, I mean just your descriptions of tribes and bandits and attacks and wars and in short animalistic, hellish chaos, there was an reactionary force, to escape from that, towards something, something which was sensed, or felt, or thought, or imagined, or dreamed, to be potentially better; which is the ever future we all are a part of working towards. Looking around at the current events (for the past...span of history) seems there is still some ways to go.

a reply to: ImaFungi
Masons were originally nothing more than skilled labourers who received high status due to their specialized ability to work various materials and provide rulers with lavish monuments. They established guilds simply to protect their craft. "Freemason" in turn merely meant a mason who was not limited by a guild and could work for anyone.

It has nothing to do with the abstract concept of freedom.

Modern masons are not even literally masons, but they follow traditions which they believe began with masons.

It's not exactly possible to change an ethnicity with a different environment, at least not without millions of interceding years. If you go to modern day Israel you will see that Jewish people are not really a race as there are caucasian, african, asiatic, and other Jews. You have everything from Ukrainian Jews with blonde hair and blue eyes to the darker Sephardic Jews. In my opinion this lends further credence to Tacitus' theory.

I certainly wouldn't use the term "mutt", which is not only derogatory, but inaccurate. Mutt would mean one person with multiple ethnic origins; what I am talking about is a number of different tribes living together in a metropolitan area, with a religion/tradition being the uniting factor.

But in general the idea of race is nonsense, for you can create human beings with any other human being. We are all the same species. "Race" is ambiguous; the ancient Greeks (and most cultures, really) believed that any time a region became overpopulated and a leader took people into a new land, they constituted a new race. You will notice most "races" are named after a single leader, often fictional. For example.

As for supplanting old ways being good or bad; ask a philosopher. This is more of a personal moral decision than objective.

Was it good for groups (including the Hebrews) to exterminate innocent people, women and children? Certainly not. But they also supplanted groups who practiced human sacrifice. What's the difference in the end - sacrifice that the populace agrees with, and war, which is like a massive sacrifice? Even if you justify it as such it still ends up "let's kill them because they are violent"...

Was it necessary? No. Every society had laws even going back into ancient times. We in the West like to pretend the Ten Commandments started civilized discourse, but it directly copied much of the Code of Hammurabi which in turn was influenced by earlier texts such as the Code of Ur-Nammu.

So there is something intrinsic in humanity that desires justice, fairness, protection.

Is order always a good thing? Certainly not; the objective behind it most often is power. The Roman Peace (Paxa Romana) was based on war. I suggest reading Caesar's "The Conquest of Gaul" to see how peaceful order truly is...

a reply to: SargonThrall

City state seals of Uruk Jemdet Nasr period;



Uruk being the city of Inanna that's the earliest association of Venus with the pentagon at around 5,000 years ago which is derivative of sub-division of the ecliptic plane into five sectors, Venus advancing 1/5th every 584 days, you also see the eight petalled floret there which relates to the complete cycle taking eight years.

With regards to the usage on the Dream stela, or at least my superimposed suppositions, given that ultimate twilight transpires at 18 degrees beneath the horizon that naturally lends itself to pentagonal angles and also of course there is the strong association of Venus with the first light of sunrise and last of sunset.

Another epithet for Heka was “the one who consecrates imagery” (HkA-kA). It refers exactly to the primeval generative attribute of Heka to empower the creator’s divine thoughts and actions and translate them into their substantial equivalent in the visual and material world. Heka was the animation force behind every ritual act, state or private, beneficent or hostile

a reply to: ImaFungi

Social engineering in and of itself isn't the problem, it becomes so when it's undertaken by incompetents with a distorted perspective, and yes the Jews themselves have been such an untoward influence, but in fairness i'm trying to point out here that the Atenists sort of used them...

It isn't the case that religion is for the benefit of Deities, that they require worship, it serves the interests of humanity, a crude analogy but if you think of the Universe or God as a computer, then the individual Deities are the applications.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
One thing I have just realized, and I am uncertain of the significance, is that the Unicursal Hexagram is merely two pentagrams pushed together. Connecting them via the shared vertical plane produces it exactly! Please forgive my crude paint skills:


It reminds me somewhat of how the Norse "Valknut" is hidden inside the triple triangle.

It is amazing how much of ancient art is related simply to mathematical principles. They must have seen divine patterns everywhere.

And I would have to agree, I think that while the Jews believed themselves at the top, they have been (and still are) pawns of power players. It would make sense to me if the "illuminati" as it were, are Atenists, or some derivative therein.

a reply to: SargonThrall

Yes that's the way to do it just merge the two pentagons into a singular motif, the Golden Dawn and the Golden Sunset sort of thing, the concern is with the liminal points of transition, the basis of Heka to the Egyptians and thus ritual magic, given that it is first recorded as the City seal of Uruk that might give some insight into the crazy antics of the E-anna...the ultimate twilight zone.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Hey Kantzveldt, can I ask you something?

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I just want you to know that I so appreciate this OP and I love you for it.

I'm familiar with all of the characters you've presented here and for whatever reason I'm pretty obsessed about our history, period... so this post was amazing to me.

When I first learned about Akhenaton I fell in love with him, lol. And Nefertiti, lol. But basically I just liked how he dared to be different... and you just deepened my appreciation of that like to the tenth power! By pointing out how it was perhaps education based, and a conspiracy to try to align Egypt with a more realistic perception of our environment. Wow. And how Moses ties into that (another poster here points out the sacrificial animals that Egypt worshipped omg wow).

Your OP made me consider what it really means to educate people... which basically you can't. You can't educate people unless they're open to it and only under certain circumstances will they be open. It's like the man in plato's cave allegory... he tries to educate them, the people reject him.

It scares me that people are so rigid when it comes to their ways and beliefs... like imagine trying to tell someone something you perceive to be true only to have them call you a witch, an alien, or whatever possessed by the devil have you and burn you at the stake? lol, that's one of my biggest fears!

Anyway, s&f. I love you so much.

a reply to: geezlouise

Ah thanks that's very kind and appreciated, i'll throw a little intrigue at you, when i posted the OP it was shortly before the death of Prince began breaking, i'm not normally one for celebrity related intrigue but it seemed a curious coincidence to me because of the manner in which i'd pointedly used the word Symbol in the OP, in a sense he projected an Akhenaten type persona, maybe only in terms of celebrity parody but still.

You right in what you say, i mean imagine trying to get the Egyptians to abandon their belief in Osiris and the journey of the Sun through the Underworld, you're asking them to give up not only their beliefs but also their immortal soul, i wouldn't want to be the one to ask such things.

a reply to: ImaFungi

Hey Kantzveldt, can I ask you something?

I'm not sure that's allowed...

a reply to: geezlouise
Now before you get all cozy with the pharaoh... take a look at the actual policies he instituted.

Amenhotep initially permits the original faith to continue while subversively smothering it in overwhelming public works. Five years in he bans any other faith and establishes Aten as the exclusive monotheistic god for the Egyptians. Thousands of years of tradition down the drain; and people wonder why his successors smashed his image.

Lo and behold, after making Aten the sole god of Egypt, Amenhotep changes his name to Akhenaten, Living Embodiment of Aten. "This is the only god that exists, and it just so happens to be me."

Initially, Akhenaten presented Aten as a variant of the familiar supreme deity Amun-Re (itself the result of an earlier rise to prominence of the cult of Amun, resulting in Amun becoming merged with the sun god Ra), in an attempt to put his ideas in a familiar Egyptian religious context. However, by Year 9 of his reign, Akhenaten declared that Aten was not merely the supreme god, but the only god, and that he, Akhenaten, was the only intermediary between Aten and his people. He ordered the defacing of Amun's temples throughout Egypt and, in a number of instances, inscriptions of the plural 'gods' were also removed.

So he becomes the only one who can interpret god's will, the only one with authority, the only one with power. He is essentially above the gods in the same way that counting votes is above casting them.

Akhenaten thence "disbanded the priesthoods of all the other gods...and diverted the income from these [other] cults to support the Aten". He develops a racket and essentially steals the monetary wealth of all competition.

You can see the implication of a secret police from the fact that everyday citizens feared accusation of previous allegiances:

Archaeological discoveries at Akhetaten show that many ordinary residents of this city chose to gouge or chisel out all references to the god Amun on even minor personal items that they owned--such as commemorative scarabs or make-up pots--perhaps for fear of being accused of having Amunist sympathies. References to Amenhotep III, Akhenaten's father, were partly erased since they contained the traditional Amun form of his name: Nebmaatre Amunhotep.[56]

As the Egytologist Nicholas Reeves writes:

"Such displays of frightening self-censorship and toadying loyalty are ominous indicators of the paranoia which was beginning to grip the country. Not only were the streets [of Akhetaten] filled with the pharaoh's soldiers; it seems the population now had to contend with the danger of malicious informers.

Under Akhenaten corruption flourished and taxes were increasingly used in frivolous vanity projects. The Amarna Letters show that he also neglected foreign relations. This particular linked one complains of a promised gift of solid gold from Akhenaten actually being wood covered in gold. Not so honest.




a reply to: Kantzveldt
And I would strongly suggest that perhaps he saw a way to capitalize on scientific discovery (round Earth) to institute even stricter control.

Good for Akhenaten for closing down the corrupt priesthood
It is easy to lay blame on the "Heretic Pharaoh" for ills already in existence.

I find all argument against Him no more than here-say and hypocrisy

a reply to: SargonThrall

Because everyone who disagreed was a denier, lacking in reason, and therefore inferior, it's a question of how we handle scientific discovery, do we openly share and discuss developments and manage inevitable change with wisdom and understanding, or do we appropriate leading research within covert groups and use that to our own advantage and as a means to control others through assumption of superiority, i think i'd prefer the Hellenistic approach which will also accelerate developments, the Jews adopted that of the Atenist and simply gave rise to retarded bastions of Theological anachronism.

a reply to: artistpoet

Are you familiar with any research that provides evidence for corruption within Egyptian Temple cults prior to Akhenaten?