I just had my life threatened debating ideas within Islam!

a reply to: enlightenedservant

he wasn't debating that the prophet took child brides, he was debating why its an acceptable practice in Egypt to which he says its cultural.

Here you are understanding all the nuance (without being there calling others ignorant) telling us how the conversation went, even bringing up the most fringe sites to try to obscure the age of a child bride, shame on you.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Oh my, I said koran instead of Hadith, holy crap every thing I said must be invalid now, right?


I don't care if Mohamed was a pedophile, I don't follow the cult, doesnt really affect me, personally nor emotionally.


9-19 lol, could they not tell the difference between a child and woman?

Sounds like revisionist apology.

Oh and btw,

you could say

I am a True Disbeliever.

Yo stories got mad plot holes.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

and why would you speculate she is older than 9 when the Hadith claimed she was 9?

Is the hadith just full of lies like that?

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: enlightenedservant

There is no question whether he had a child bride that is not debated this is factual, her age is debated up to 10 - 12 years old.


en.wikipedia.org...

Aisha's age at the time she was married to Muhammad has been of interest since the earliest days of Islam, and references to her age by early historians are frequent.[11] According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad with the marriage not being consummated until she had reached puberty at the age of nine or ten years old.[10][11][12][13][14][23][24][25] For example, Sahih al-Bukhari states: Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). — Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:62:64 Some traditional sources disagree. Ibn Hisham wrote in his biography of Muhammad that she may have been ten years old at the consummation.[11] Ibn Khallikan, as well as Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi citing Hisham ibn Urwah, record that she was nine years old at marriage, and twelve at consummation.[26] Sadakat Kadri points out that the recording of Aisha's age by Ibn Sa'd and Bukhari (though the hadith was Sahih) came a couple of centuries after the Prophet's death.[27] Child marriage was not uncommon in many places at the time, Arabia included. It often served political purposes, and Aisha's marriage to Muhammad would have had a political connotation.[26]

And since you are discussing what you think about me - from being a deuchebag too just generally non respecting of Muslims, I think you are an apologist, I think you show up in any thread about Islam and you tell everyone how ignorant they are, you are almost pointless to talk to because you don't think you are wrong. I wonder what the philosopher and debater Sam Harris is to you? I wonder if he is a duechbag and ignorant. I hold myself with decorum and mutual respect and in doing so I expect us not to have to go fist to cuffs, or my life to be threatened. It's no surprise in a thread where I am ranting about someones lack of tolerance, you show up to apologize for them, anyone with half a brain should know exactly where you stand. Muslim = right Critic = wrong, the sad part in my view Muslim equals neither right or wrong but their ideologies absolutely should be challenged in particular the fundamentalists.

Actually no, the debate is between 9 and 19, like I posted in detail. And as I've stated many times, Hadith were completely banned by the Prophet Muhammad and the first 9 Caliphs. They only began being written under the reign of the reformist 10th Caliph, and even then it was done unofficially. So anyone who considers any variation of the Hadith to be 100% acurate is doing themselves a disservice.

Also, I only show up in some Islam-related threads. Most times, there's no point because the same things are being said over and over and over. I don't have the patience to keep repeating myself so I've lost interest in them. I only responded in this thread because I recognized where your conversation took a downward turn & figured I'd point out how to avoid that repeating itself.

And I wasn't being an apologist for him. In fact, I said it was wrong. However, it's always good to understand where your "opponents" are coming from. Otherwise, no discussion or negotiation will ever yield credible results, because neither side will be satisfied.

Last thing: The funny part is you'd made a different thread about Islam and I responded to it. I explained in detail just how often I've gotten into it with other Muslim scholars and clerics. So it's almost hilarious that you'd say I think "Muslim = right, critic = wrong" when I directly told you incidences of the opposite (here's one of those posts). Ironically, I thought we were having a good conversation there about Islam until I looked at another thread about Islam at the same time. You were making completely different comments there, basically saying you were just waiting for the apologists to come in, say the original thread writer was wrong, and blah blah blah. I stopped responding in the thread after I read that.

Religion is built upon lies.

/thread

originally posted by: Lysergic
a reply to: enlightenedservant

and why would you speculate she is older than 9 when the Hadith claimed she was 9?

Is the hadith just full of lies like that?

Just for the record, Hadith are not mandatory nor are they even agreed upon. Different denominations and schools of thought accept different Hadith as authentic and false, with some accepting none (like Quranists). It was forbidden to teach from anything other than the Qur'an when the Prophet Muhammad was alive. And the first 9 Caliphs upheld this ruling by banning everything other than the Qur'an.

The 10th Caliph of Mecca and the surrounding area was the first to allow Hadith to be recorded, and it was only done unofficially then. For the record, he was a reformist. It was under his administration that Arabic became the only accepted language for those Muslim territories; he instituted an Islamic central banking system; had a watered down version of Arabic taught throughout the empire (instead of the complex Arabic of the Qur'an), etc. And the most famous collections of Hadith were collected more than 150 years after this.

So in short, yes, many Hadith are BS.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: enlightenedservant

he wasn't debating that the prophet took child brides, he was debating why its an acceptable practice in Egypt to which he says its cultural.

Here you are understanding all the nuance (without being there calling others ignorant) telling us how the conversation went, even bringing up the most fringe sites to try to obscure the age of a child bride, shame on you.

I can only go by the details you type. Not my fault you didn't say that in your OP.

edit: And wait, when did I call someone ignorant?

If you offened someone and their beliefs.. Of course they will get pissed.. That is not exclusive to Islam.
It also would depend on the individual as to how they would react to being offended.
I'm sure there are certain subjects that you would react similarly, maybe not death threats but certainly with anger.
So to be honest, you seem like a cool guy but this thread is nothing more than anti Islam rhetoric again.

And the pattern of stars to certain comments goes to show this site is biased against Islam and it's beliefs..

originally posted by: LostThePlot
*POST REMOVED BY STAFF*

I mean this comment for example.. Shows nothing but ignorance and ironically mentions being uneducated and delusional..
Just jumping on the bandwagon with little knowledge of what he is talking about..

a reply to: TechniXcality

Screw them. You've my support.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: Azureblue

because in order to understand nuance you must go into the details. My friend in Egypt says child brides are acceptable and encouraged, this is what we were discussing and Sam (from Australia) was arguing this point that its cultural ( just like we introduce ourselves a certain way, they marry young children), but I countered with- If you are to emulate the prophet, and he himself took child brides, than how is this cultural this is religious, at which point my life was threatened. There's absolutely reason to discuss these things, because their are many practicing these abhorrent things, where I refuse to build a bridge or compromise. When it comes to the killing(or jailing) of apostates, the killing and jailing of homosexuals, and the taking of child brides, sorry I cant bridge that gap, can you?

I agree with your point but over all, how they justify doing what we believe is abhorrent is not that relevant, Its there preparedness to adapt and adopt to our values and culture etc, in the future if they want to join our community, that is more relevant.

Perhaps I take this view because I don't have anything to do with religion and that causes me to down rate the value of discussing what this or that supposedly godly figure is claimed to have said. I think future behaviour is where the focus should be.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

And btw, a lot of Muslims will get mad if you basically call the Prophet Muhammad a pedo.

But he is a pedo, according to your religious texts.

I guess truth hurts.

originally posted by: Azureblue

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: Azureblue

because in order to understand nuance you must go into the details. My friend in Egypt says child brides are acceptable and encouraged, this is what we were discussing and Sam (from Australia) was arguing this point that its cultural ( just like we introduce ourselves a certain way, they marry young children), but I countered with- If you are to emulate the prophet, and he himself took child brides, than how is this cultural this is religious, at which point my life was threatened. There's absolutely reason to discuss these things, because their are many practicing these abhorrent things, where I refuse to build a bridge or compromise. When it comes to the killing(or jailing) of apostates, the killing and jailing of homosexuals, and the taking of child brides, sorry I cant bridge that gap, can you?

I agree with your point but over all, how they justify doing what we believe is abhorrent is not that relevant, Its there preparedness to adapt and adopt to our values and culture etc, in the future if they want to join our community, that is more relevant.

Perhaps I take this view because I don't have anything to do with religion and that causes me to down rate the value of discussing what this or that supposedly godly figure is claimed to have said. I think future behaviour is where the focus should be.

Your absolutely right. In the western world we know child brides and paedophilia is the worst crime you can commit.
Which is not allowed here, any Muslims living within those countries has to follow those rules or face jail.

But also child brides is not widespread across Islam, it happens within the Muslim world..

Sadly a lot of people tar everyone with the same brush. It's like blaming all English for the British empire or all Americans for the wars in the me, or even black people blaming all white people for slavery... It's bs

a reply to: TechniXcality

I think you are wasting your time because many male muslims have been indoctrinated well before 7 and with those teachings reinforced every time they enter the mosque our culture with our very different values will always be totally incompatible.

We have as my family are proof integrated many mediterranean Muslims back since the 60's and its fair to say that many have come here who are not by choice religious even though they would side with Islam - no doubt. But the plain facts are that the differences are too big to bridge in any way shape or form.

Christianity with its teachings of turn the other cheek and forgiveness is totally vulnerable to Islam and quietly to Judiasm also. Unless we act through the law and enforce it at every juncture, the individual who perceived your insulted Islam when you were talking to him , will come looking for you and anyone else who agrees with you - once of course he has enough mates and arms from your local mosque.

Sorry but this is the tip of very nasty iceberg.

originally posted by: Misterlondon

originally posted by: LostThePlot
You can't debate with mentally ill,uneducated,delusional,savages. Especially if you try and point out that having child sex slaves is bad. After all, it's their ultimate goal and prize after death.

I mean this comment for example.. Shows nothing but ignorance and ironically mentions being uneducated and delusional..
Just jumping on the bandwagon with little knowledge of what he is talking about..

Sorry apologist but anyone who believes in such nonsense is mentally ill. I'm far from uneducated when it comes to Islam.
It's a horrific ideology and a cancer of the human race. Day after day these people prove they have no place in civilized society. Your safe space wont protect you for long.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: enlightenedservant

he wasn't debating that the prophet took child brides, he was debating why its an acceptable practice in Egypt to which he says its cultural.

Here you are understanding all the nuance (without being there calling others ignorant) telling us how the conversation went, even bringing up the most fringe sites to try to obscure the age of a child bride, shame on you.

I'm getting a bit lost here.

So you were debating in a cultural context, not religious context like the title suggests?

As soon as I read the title, I knew it was going to be you who authored the thread. Take that for what you will, or call me a psychic if you like.

a reply to: Nexttimemaybe

Does cultural context excuse child sodomy, rape, marriage?


Piss on any culture who finds such acceptable.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Interesting you view others with differing opinions to yourself as "Opponents" and not just people who disagree. Your choice of word there is enlightening - many here disagree on different things but they are unlikely to see the other person as strongly as an actual 'opponent'.