Whoa! The Julian Calendar is always ahead of the Gregorian Calendar?

I see it in a more simplified way...

The Julian calendar had more leap years, so their calendar had too many days. So if (say) 1000 years were being tracked by both calendars, it would take longer for the Julian calendar to track those 1000 years than would the Gregorian calendar (because of the extra days).

Immediately after 1000 years, the Gregorians would keeping track of the 1001st year, ahead of the Julians, who would be behind and still keeping track of the 1000th year.


By the way, if we continued using the Julian calendar rather than switching to the Gregorian, today would be February 13 instead of February 26.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People
Exactly so. I've tried a version of that explanation.
The problem does need visual imagery of some kind, or else it gets too abstract to grasp clearly.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
originally posted by: neutrinostargate

All your calculations about what the Julian calendar date ought to be are invalidated by this one simple fact; the Orthodox churches have been following the Julian calendar continuously, and they know what the current Julian date is. They will tell you that today's date is February the 13th. Ask your nearest Orthodox priest.

True. On the day that the Gregorian Calendar says it's January 7, the Russian Orthodox Church calendar would say it was December 25.

Go to this linked calendar and click on January 7. In the summary of the day's significance, under the words "Orthodox Calendar", this particular calendar lists two dates: Gregorian and Church (Julian) dates, as so:

"Orthodox Calendar
Thursday January 7, 2016 / December 25, 2015


EDIT TO ADD LINK TO CALENDAR:

www.holytrinityorthodox.com...

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: DISRAELI
originally posted by: neutrinostargate

All your calculations about what the Julian calendar date ought to be are invalidated by this one simple fact; the Orthodox churches have been following the Julian calendar continuously, and they know what the current Julian date is. They will tell you that today's date is February the 13th. Ask your nearest Orthodox priest.

True. On the day that the Gregorian Calendar says it's January 7, the Russian Orthodox Church calendar would say it was December 25.

It should be the other way around. It should be January 7th Julian or Dec 25th (gregorian)

a reply to: DISRAELI

So are you telling me that LA times article is wrong? That instead of it being July 12th, 2017 it should be June 28th, 2017 instead?

originally posted by: neutrinostargate

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: DISRAELI
originally posted by: neutrinostargate

All your calculations about what the Julian calendar date ought to be are invalidated by this one simple fact; the Orthodox churches have been following the Julian calendar continuously, and they know what the current Julian date is. They will tell you that today's date is February the 13th. Ask your nearest Orthodox priest.

True. On the day that the Gregorian Calendar says it's January 7, the Russian Orthodox Church calendar would say it was December 25.

It should be the other way around. It should be January 7th Julian or Dec 25th (gregorian)

No.

Due to the extra leap days, the Julian/Orthodox calendar included more days than the Gregorian, so it would take the Julian/Church calendar longer to count the days of the year (more days to count = a longer time to count them).

Taking longer to count means it will be slower, so when the Gregorian date is January 7, the Church says it's December 25.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: neutrinostargate

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: DISRAELI
originally posted by: neutrinostargate

All your calculations about what the Julian calendar date ought to be are invalidated by this one simple fact; the Orthodox churches have been following the Julian calendar continuously, and they know what the current Julian date is. They will tell you that today's date is February the 13th. Ask your nearest Orthodox priest.

True. On the day that the Gregorian Calendar says it's January 7, the Russian Orthodox Church calendar would say it was December 25.

It should be the other way around. It should be January 7th Julian or Dec 25th (gregorian)

No.

Due to the extra lead days, the Julian/Orthodox calendar included more days than the Gregorian, so it would take the Julian/Church calendar longer to count the days of the year (more days to count = a longer time to count them).

Taking longer to count means it will be slower, so when the Gregorian date is January 7, the Church says it's December 25.

Then it would make NO sense for the Russian Orthodox to observe Christmas on January 7th if they observe a Julian calendar. What the hell is the point of celebrating Christmas on January 7th (Gregorian) day or Dec. 25th (Jullian).

Since they observe the Julian calendar, they follow it, not the Gregorian. Thus, January 7th is the Julian day and Dec. 25th is the Gregorian day. Otherwise the logic behind them celebrating on Jan. 7th makes zero sense.

twitter.com...

"When Christmas is Celebrated Calendar showing 25th December Although December 25th is the date when most people celebrate Christmas, there are some other dates as well! Some churches (mainly Orthodox churches) use a different calendars for their religious celebrations. Orthodox Churches in Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, Ukraine, Ethiopia and other countries use the old 'Julian' calendar and people in those churches celebrate Christmas on January 7th. Most people in the Greek Orthodox Church celebrate Christmas on December 25th. But some still use the Julian calendar and so celebrate Christmas on 7th January! Some Greek Catholics also celebrate on January 7th."

www.whychristmas.com...

a reply to: neutrinostargate
I think you are misunderstanding the article's message.

An accurate calendar needs a certain number of leap years, but not too many.
The article points out that if we added no leap years at all, the nominal date would be much later than it ought to be - hence the 2017 date.
The Julian calendar adds leap years, but slghtly too many, so over the centuries the nominal date gets earlier than it ought to be.
The Gregorian calendar slightly reduces the number of leap years, so that the nominal date of the spring equinox (taking that as the standard) remains where Julius Caesar placed it for a longer period of time.
Afte many more centuries, another slight adjustment would be needed and agreed, but we don't need to worry about that.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: neutrinostargate
I think you are misunderstanding the article's message.

An accurate calendar needs a certain number of leap years, but not too many.
The article points out that if we added no leap years at all, the nominal date would be much later than it ought to be - hence the 2017 date.
The Julian calendar adds leap years, but slghtly too many, so over the centuries the nominal date gets earlier than it ought to be.
The Gregorian calendar slightly reduces the number of leap years, so that the nominal date of the spring equinox (taking that as the standard) remains where Julius Caesar placed it for a longer period of time.
Afte many more centuries, another slight adjustment would be needed and agreed, but we don't need to worry about that.

Ok you tell me then, is that LA Times article wrong? Is July 12th, 2017 not the correct date? What is the Julian date then?

Out of the mouth of a very old babe, is it possible that this is just an issue of semantics, or even simpler, one's "point" of view?

I am extremely unqualified to add anything but this sad example: I used to wonder what direction the earth spinned as I had just stupidly assumed it spun from "left to right" or from "right to left", never knowing which was correct. But then my husband pointed out that if you stand on your head, and then try to look at the same globe in your mind, now what direction is it spinning?

Just a thought. Ignore me, unless I'm on to something.

a reply to: neutrinostargate
No, I am telling you again that you have misunderstood it.
That article is NOT giving July 2017 as the correct date.
It is offering July 2017 as the date which would be current if we added no leap years at all, which would be even more inaccurate than the Julian calendar.

The Julian date is February 13th
The Gregorian date is February 26th.

originally posted by: neutrinostargate
originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

Then it would make NO sense for the Russian Orthodox to observe Christmas on January 7th if they observe a Julian calendar. What the hell is the point of celebrating Christmas on January 7th (Gregorian) day or Dec. 25th (Jullian).

The day they celebrate it is January 7 on our calendar.

However, if you ask a Orthodox priest on that day (Gregorian Jan. 7) what day the church calendar says it is, he will tell you that the date is December 25. That would be the Church Calendar date.

On the other hand, priests need to live in the "real world", too, so if he needed to have his taxes in by April 15 (if he were a priest in the U.S.), then you bet that he would be following the Gregorian Calendar for that.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: neutrinostargate
I think you are misunderstanding the article's message.

An accurate calendar needs a certain number of leap years, but not too many.
The article points out that if we added no leap years at all, the nominal date would be much later than it ought to be - hence the 2017 date.
The Julian calendar adds leap years, but slghtly too many, so over the centuries the nominal date gets earlier than it ought to be.
The Gregorian calendar slightly reduces the number of leap years, so that the nominal date of the spring equinox (taking that as the standard) remains where Julius Caesar placed it for a longer period of time.
Afte many more centuries, another slight adjustment would be needed and agreed, but we don't need to worry about that.

Lets say you take 1000 years from now.

1000 years x 365 solar days/yr (no leap years) = 365,000 days

1000 years x 365.25 Julian calendar solar days/yr (1 leap day every 4 years) = 365,250 days

1000 years x 365.2425 Gregorian calendar solar days/yr (1.03 leap day every 4 years or 4.123 years) = 365,243 days

365,250 - 365,243 = 7 days

You can see over 1000 years from now the Julian drifts ahead of the Gregorian by 7 days, not behind it as so many people assume.

a reply to: ClownFish
I think you are partly right, because I noticed earlier some semantic confusion about "ahead" and "behind", when applied to calendars. One of the sites quoted by the OP was partly responsible for that.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: neutrinostargate
No, I am telling you again that you have misunderstood it.
That article is NOT giving July 2017 as the correct date.
It is offering July 2017 as the date which would be current if we added no leap years at all, which would be even more inaccurate than the Julian calendar.

The Julian date is February 13th
The Gregorian date is February 26th.

I don't care if it is the correct date or not. The problem is how did they arrive at July 12th, 2017? I already explained it. If you remove leap years you arrive at that date for the Gregorian July 12th, 2017, for the Julian it would be July 28th, 2017? Can you not read? I already explained that multiple times and further showed proof in my calculations. It is all right there. You can't even argue with it.

originally posted by: neutrinostargate
1000 years x 365.25 Julian calendar solar days/yr (1 leap day every 4 years) = 365,250 days

1000 years x 365.2425 Gregorian calendar solar days/yr (1.03 leap day every 4 years or 4.123 years) = 365,243 days

These figures being correct, the consequence is that the Gregorian calendar hits the end of the thousand years a good seven days before the Julian calendar.
Do stop and think about it.
May I suggest a visual image again;
Two athletes called Julian and Gregorian are running in a race.
Julian is running down a 100 yard track, and Gregorian is running down a 90 yard track.
If they are both running at the same speed, who is going to get to the end of their track first?
Think about it.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: neutrinostargate
originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

Then it would make NO sense for the Russian Orthodox to observe Christmas on January 7th if they observe a Julian calendar. What the hell is the point of celebrating Christmas on January 7th (Gregorian) day or Dec. 25th (Jullian).

The day they celebrate it is January 7 on our calendar.

However, if you ask a Orthodox priest on that day (Gregorian Jan. 7) what day the church calendar says it is, he will tell you that the date is December 25. That would be the Church Calendar date.

On the other hand, priests need to live in the "real world", too, so if he needed to have his taxes in by April 15 (if he were a priest in the U.S.), then you bet that he would be following the Gregorian Calendar for that.

www.ibtimes.com...



"Russian President Vladimir Putin attends an Orthodox Christmas service at a local cathedral of the village Otradnoye in Voronezh region Jan. 7, 2015. Most Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas according to the Julian calendar on Jan. 7, two weeks after most western Christian churches that abide by the Gregorian calendar. Photo: Reuters/Alexei Druzhinin/RIA Novosti/Kremlin "

So is that wrong above? LOL You are saying Jan. 7th should be the Gregorian date. Well guess what? They don't follow the freaking Gregorian calendar, they follow the Julian. Jan. 7th is the Julian date not the Gregorian. If they followed the Gregorian, which they don't, then sure, they would follow Jan. 7th as the Gregorian date.

originally posted by: neutrinostargate
If you remove leap years you arrive at that date for the Gregorian July 12th, 2017, for the Julian it would be July 28th, 2017?

It is not a case of removing "either from the Julian calendar or from the Gregorian calendar".
Their hypothetical calendar without leap years is a third calendar, separate from either of the others.
Making a separate removal "from the Gregorian calendar" is a meaningless operation.
They are not trying to do that.

originally posted by: neutrinostargate

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: neutrinostargate
I think you are misunderstanding the article's message.

An accurate calendar needs a certain number of leap years, but not too many.
The article points out that if we added no leap years at all, the nominal date would be much later than it ought to be - hence the 2017 date.
The Julian calendar adds leap years, but slghtly too many, so over the centuries the nominal date gets earlier than it ought to be.
The Gregorian calendar slightly reduces the number of leap years, so that the nominal date of the spring equinox (taking that as the standard) remains where Julius Caesar placed it for a longer period of time.
Afte many more centuries, another slight adjustment would be needed and agreed, but we don't need to worry about that.

Lets say you take 1000 years from now.

1000 years x 365 solar days/yr (no leap years) = 365,000 days

1000 years x 365.25 Julian calendar solar days/yr (1 leap day every 4 years) = 365,250 days

1000 years x 365.2425 Gregorian calendar solar days/yr (1.03 leap day every 4 years or 4.123 years) = 365,243 days

365,250 - 365,243 = 7 days

You can see over 1000 years from now the Julian drifts ahead of the Gregorian by 7 days, not behind it as so many people assume.

Semantics -- i.e., it depends on now you look at it or word it.

Another way to look at it would be to say that the Julian calendar has more days to count over those 1000 years, so it would take longer to do so, which means that the Gregorian will finish counting those 1000 years first, which means the Gregorian calendar is ahead (i.e., got to the end of their 1000 years ahead of the Julian Calendar).


By the way, going back to the Church Calendar, did you see my link to a Russian Orthodox Church Calendar? If you click the link below, you will see a Calendar that lists today's Gregorian date AND the Church date -- with the Church date being behind. For example, today is February 26 (Gregorian), but this link also lists it as February 13.

www.holytrinityorthodox.com...

originally posted by: neutrinostargate
originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

"Russian President Vladimir Putin attends an Orthodox Christmas service at a local cathedral of the village Otradnoye in Voronezh region Jan. 7, 2015. Most Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas according to the Julian calendar on Jan. 7, two weeks after most western Christian churches that abide by the Gregorian calendar. Photo: Reuters/Alexei Druzhinin/RIA Novosti/Kremlin "

So is that wrong above? LOL You are saying Jan. 7th should be the Gregorian date. Well guess what? They don't follow the freaking Gregorian calendar, they follow the Julian. Jan. 7th is the Julian date not the Gregorian. If they followed the Gregorian, which they don't, then sure, they would follow Jan. 7th as the Gregorian date.

The wording used in that paragraph is ambiguous. Let me re-write it in a way that is more clear:

"Russian President Vladimir Putin attends an Orthodox Christmas service at a local cathedral of the village Otradnoye in Voronezh region Jan. 7, 2015. Most Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas according to the Julian calendar, which falls on Jan. 7 on the Gregorian Calendar, two weeks after most western Christian churches that abide by the Gregorian calendar...."

You are again running into semantics.