Downed Russian SU-24 black box first information

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Ploutonas

So how does Dronov know that the flight recorder proves that the plane didn't violate Turkish airspace if the data hasn't been analyzed yet? Is he psychic?

I'f their story is true does your question really make sense? How would Russia know where their planes are flying?

If only they invented something to do this about 75 years ago.

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Ploutonas

So how does Dronov know that the flight recorder proves that the plane didn't violate Turkish airspace if the data hasn't been analyzed yet? Is he psychic?

All 3 sources in the OP are reporting on the same briefing. In that respect Ibtimes and bcc never said that Dronov said the evidence came from the black box, the third source did. In that regards is this a case of a source embelishing the story or was there something in the translation but they are all reporting on the same briefing[/,]. He didn't give these comments out separately.

He was telegraphing the inevitable outcome. His statement will be dutifully repeated on all the Russian propaganda blogs and pass into "common knowledge." When the investigation is concluded, the experts will say that the data is too corrupted to replicate the plane's exact course, but the plane was headed east when it was struck, suggesting that if it did indeed enter Turkish airspace, it was exiting at the time. This more nuanced conclusion will be reduced to: "British and Chinese experts conclude SU-25 was no threat to Turkey." This version will then be transmitted through the Russian blog network resulting in ATS members insisting that "The black box proves that the plane was not in Turkish airspace, even the Brits and Chinese say so."

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Ploutonas

So how does Dronov know that the flight recorder proves that the plane didn't violate Turkish airspace if the data hasn't been analyzed yet? Is he psychic?

All 3 sources in the OP are reporting on the same briefing. In that respect Ibtimes and bcc never said that Dronov said the evidence came from the black box, the third source did. In that regards is this a case of a source embelishing the story or was there something in the translation but they are all reporting on the same briefing[/,]. He didn't give these comments out separately.

He was telegraphing the inevitable outcome. His statement will be dutifully repeated on all the Russian propaganda blogs and pass into "common knowledge." When the investigation is concluded, the experts will say that the data is too corrupted to replicate the planes exact course, but the plane was headed east when it was struck, suggesting that if it indeed enter Turkish airspace, it was exiting at the time. This more nuanced conclusion will be reduced to: "British and Chinese experts conclude SU-25 was no threat to Turkey." This version will then be transmitted through the Russian blog network resulting in ATS members insisting that "The black box proves that the plane was not in Turkish airspace, even the Brits and Chinese say so."

Does it really matter? Should the Iraqis start blasting the Turks in the mountains they asked to leave? They have every right to.

The problem is Turkey doesn't belong in Western alliances. They should let international business break down some barriers first and if the states want to make deals the blatant human rights violations need to be cleaned up. Same with Saudi and all other barbaric tyranical governments.

Yeah it may be legal...thats just nott any the real problem. Countries don't just blast planes out of the sky even in these situations. Most people exhaust every other option first.

a reply to: DJW001

So the BBC and IBtimes are misreporting what has been said? They stated he said they have evidence never said it was from the black box.

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: DJW001

So the BBC and IBtimes are misreporting what has been said? They stated he said they have evidence never said it was from the black box.

He has is just saying it doesn't matter russia is lying. All the while defending Erdogan who is risking a bigger conflict to show how big his sword is.

a reply to: luthier

Does it really matter? Should the Iraqis start blasting the Turks in the mountains they asked to leave? They have every right to.

They have every right to, but it would be counterproductive.

The problem is Turkey doesn't belong in Western alliances. They should let international business break down some barriers first and if the states want to make deals the blatant human rights violations need to be cleaned up. Same with Saudi and all other barbaric tyranical governments.

I can't say I totally disagree with you, but that is not really the issue here.

Yeah it may be legal...that just got any the real problem. Countries don't just blast planes out of the sky even in these situations. Most people exhaust every other option first.

You blast planes out of the sky to make a point. Putin got the point; he is now willing to negotiate with the FSA.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: 23432

originally posted by: luthier


Yeah Turkey does it all the time they just rearrange the constitution and find ways to jail any opposition to Erdogan.

uhm slight correction if I may ; the Constitution was written by a military committe following a coup .
All the parties who came to power since 1982 constitution was passed has used the same tricks that Erdogan is using now .
The problem is deeper then that . The Constitution needs a major re-write and eveyone in Turkey knows about it.
The " Opposition " has used the same Laws to jail Erdogan back in time ; so he uses the same Laws to jail his jailers .
That is how fcuk up the situation is ; it is not about exclusively Erdogan misusing his powers .



Russia is doing what you say. This why the public unveiling. This will lead to either an investigation or a drop of the issue by the west.

Russia and Putin may or may not go to Court over this issue ; and this issue doesn't warrant the response Putin is giving out .

Hey Russia may not be in the right but it isn't an a or b answer. You still don't shoot people down who are not a threat.
These pilots were murdering innocent Turks . Putin got told of this issue on various occasions thru different channels , including Erdogan himself to Putin's face at G20 meeting .
Erdogan asked Putin to stop bombing Turks who are no where near DAESH areas .
Putin has said you have got to treat us as guests and Erdogan replied " you need an invitation from us to be considered as guess and you have none " .
You do shoot people who are bombing innocent people and that is what Turks did .

I tell you what ; I bet you that the Putin really doesn't care about the bombing of Turkmens one way or the other . I bet that decision was delegated to a field commander who got paid extra monies to go bomb the Turkmens in the north .

If someone jumps my fence I run and get my gun and shoot him in my neighbors yard would you defend me? I sure hope so because it's not much different. Let's not forget this was a fraction of time even the Turks show on their radar. I seriously doubt the Russians sat in that little finger doing barrel rolls for 5 minutes but it is possible.

This plane was bombing the innocent people for days while Turks pleaded with Russians to stop it .

It is a safe bet to say that Turks were watching movements all the time from the beginning .

If someone was jumping the fence and shooting at your kids ; I would shoot him dead where ever on earth he goes to .

Pilots were on a bombing mission , killing innocent people . That is the main reason the moral high ground doesn't apply I am afraid .

No.

I am afraid yes indeed .

You have no idea what the bombing was and why Turkey has people all over Syria. Do you have special intelligence and get briefings on what the real situation is?

Yes I do have special access to certain Turkmen Groups that no one on ATS has . I do know the exact reasons why Turkish Intelligence operates all over Syria and other places .
There is the information dissemination thru normal channels besides my special sources .



You are assuming the tyranical president is telling the truth? You have to to believe what you are saying.

I speak with Turkmens and Syrian refugees ;my cousin donates 1 day of teaching the Syrian kids every week.
I assume nothing and I don't cut any corners for Erdogan's sake either .


We have NO idea what is going on in the Syrian mountains. Strategically speaking that is where you go to hide and train being very difficult to always see in caves and valleys.

I have access to videos and pictures of the Russian jets devastation . I could put them up here if you want to .
Those mountains are full of Turkish Intelligence agents .



Russia has not been shooting Turkish pilots and the bombings are in Syria. They shouldn't be there. My assumption is Kerry taking a 180 to Russia in Syria is over this action by Turkey. I guarantee regardless of it being legal the US and NATO are pissed. If there is any proof with the box I would move back to the west. That fake building boom will be over.

Russia has been bombing the innocent people in Syria .
That is what gets ignored in this propaganda war .
US is far from pissed and Germany has just come out with a strong condemnation of Russia while praising turks .

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: DJW001

So the BBC and IBtimes are misreporting what has been said? They stated he said they have evidence never said it was from the black box.

Putin was already saying that the flight recorder will prove that the plane was not in Turkish airspace. That was not a prediction, it was an order.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: luthier

Does it really matter? Should the Iraqis start blasting the Turks in the mountains they asked to leave? They have every right to.

They have every right to, but it would be counterproductive.

The problem is Turkey doesn't belong in Western alliances. They should let international business break down some barriers first and if the states want to make deals the blatant human rights violations need to be cleaned up. Same with Saudi and all other barbaric tyranical governments.

I can't say I totally disagree with you, but that is not really the issue here.

Yeah it may be legal...that just got any the real problem. Countries don't just blast planes out of the sky even in these situations. Most people exhaust every other option first.

You blast planes out of the sky to make a point. Putin got the point; he is now willing to negotiate with the FSA.

Really bringing in extra antiaircraft and navay ships is a getting the point.

No western country would do what Turkey did and not try and cover it up. None.

Poland gets buzzed wonder why they don't shoot down planes and just escort them out?


Maybe because they don't have a volatile president putting the entire world at risk for no reason.

a reply to: DJW001

of course. whatever fantasy it takes to confirm your bias.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: DJW001

So the BBC and IBtimes are misreporting what has been said? They stated he said they have evidence never said it was from the black box.

Putin was already saying that the flight recorder will prove that the plane was not in Turkish airspace. That was not a prediction, it was an order.

The two independent specialists from Britain and China in on it too?

a reply to: DJW001

I dont understand you logic , how did Putin got the point ? Operation has been intensified , airspace fortified , air operation now escorted by fighter jets, Warships patrolling the coast. The area where the su -24 got annihilated instantly after the pilot was secured. Turkey has grounded all F16 flight remotely close to the border. I think a lot of wishful thinking coming from you. Putin from the start offered cooperation with the FSA but they refused. Its the FSA now got the point and start cooperating with Russia not the other way around.

originally posted by: 23432

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: 23432

originally posted by: luthier


Yeah Turkey does it all the time they just rearrange the constitution and find ways to jail any opposition to Erdogan.

uhm slight correction if I may ; the Constitution was written by a military committe following a coup .
All the parties who came to power since 1982 constitution was passed has used the same tricks that Erdogan is using now .
The problem is deeper then that . The Constitution needs a major re-write and eveyone in Turkey knows about it.
The " Opposition " has used the same Laws to jail Erdogan back in time ; so he uses the same Laws to jail his jailers .
That is how fcuk up the situation is ; it is not about exclusively Erdogan misusing his powers .



Russia is doing what you say. This why the public unveiling. This will lead to either an investigation or a drop of the issue by the west.

Russia and Putin may or may not go to Court over this issue ; and this issue doesn't warrant the response Putin is giving out .

Hey Russia may not be in the right but it isn't an a or b answer. You still don't shoot people down who are not a threat.
These pilots were murdering innocent Turks . Putin got told of this issue on various occasions thru different channels , including Erdogan himself to Putin's face at G20 meeting .
Erdogan asked Putin to stop bombing Turks who are no where near DAESH areas .
Putin has said you have got to treat us as guests and Erdogan replied " you need an invitation from us to be considered as guess and you have none " .
You do shoot people who are bombing innocent people and that is what Turks did .

I tell you what ; I bet you that the Putin really doesn't care about the bombing of Turkmens one way or the other . I bet that decision was delegated to a field commander who got paid extra monies to go bomb the Turkmens in the north .

If someone jumps my fence I run and get my gun and shoot him in my neighbors yard would you defend me? I sure hope so because it's not much different. Let's not forget this was a fraction of time even the Turks show on their radar. I seriously doubt the Russians sat in that little finger doing barrel rolls for 5 minutes but it is possible.

This plane was bombing the innocent people for days while Turks pleaded with Russians to stop it .

It is a safe bet to say that Turks were watching movements all the time from the beginning .

If someone was jumping the fence and shooting at your kids ; I would shoot him dead where ever on earth he goes to .

Pilots were on a bombing mission , killing innocent people . That is the main reason the moral high ground doesn't apply I am afraid .

No.

I am afraid yes indeed .

You have no idea what the bombing was and why Turkey has people all over Syria. Do you have special intelligence and get briefings on what the real situation is?

Yes I do have special access to certain Turkmen Groups that no one on ATS has . I do know the exact reasons why Turkish Intelligence operates all over Syria and other places .
There is the information dissemination thru normal channels besides my special sources .



You are assuming the tyranical president is telling the truth? You have to to believe what you are saying.

I speak with Turkmens and Syrian refugees ;my cousin donates 1 day of teaching the Syrian kids every week.
I assume nothing and I don't cut any corners for Erdogan's sake either .


We have NO idea what is going on in the Syrian mountains. Strategically speaking that is where you go to hide and train being very difficult to always see in caves and valleys.

I have access to videos and pictures of the Russian jets devastation . I could put them up here if you want to .
Those mountains are full of Turkish Intelligence agents .



Russia has not been shooting Turkish pilots and the bombings are in Syria. They shouldn't be there. My assumption is Kerry taking a 180 to Russia in Syria is over this action by Turkey. I guarantee regardless of it being legal the US and NATO are pissed. If there is any proof with the box I would move back to the west. That fake building boom will be over.

Russia has been bombing the innocent people in Syria .
That is what gets ignored in this propaganda war .
US is far from pissed and Germany has just come out with a strong condemnation of Russia while praising turks .

You know that's a bs arguement right. I have special secret sources while showing zero military understanding. Nobody knows who the good guys are and how much is left of them. Civil wars that drag on this long create a lot of psychos from the massive ptsd sorry to say. Even CHE started out with good intentions.

One thing is for sure what ever Turkey has been doing along with the west doesn't seem to be working in Syria.

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: DJW001

So the BBC and IBtimes are misreporting what has been said? They stated he said they have evidence never said it was from the black box.

He has is just saying it doesn't matter russia is lying. All the while defending Erdogan who is risking a bigger conflict to show how big his sword is.

But his assertions don't hold any weight when there is independent investigators involved too

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: DJW001

So the BBC and IBtimes are misreporting what has been said? They stated he said they have evidence never said it was from the black box.

He has is just saying it doesn't matter russia is lying. All the while defending Erdogan who is risking a bigger conflict to show how big his sword is.

But his assertions don't hold any weight when there is independent investigators involved too

It doesn't matter if you see things black and white. You have to pick a side.

a reply to: Laxus

Putin from the start offered cooperation with the FSA but they refused.

Really? Do you have a source for this?

a reply to: 23432

Germany doesn't have much to say about the US killing innocents in air strikes. it seems no one does. that is also what gets ignored in this propaganda war isnt it? fact of the matter is civilian casualties are inevitable. every war ever has had civilian casualties and they usually outweigh militant casualties. is your suggestion that everyone stop fighting isis in fear of civilian suffering?

a reply to: sosobad

The two independent specialists from Britain and China in on it too?

Did you read my post? They will give a technical explanation saying that it is impossible to say with certainty, but the Russians will downplay that in favor of emphasizing that the plane was no threat to Turkey.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

Germany doesn't have much to say about the US killing innocents in air strikes. it seems no one does. that is also what gets ignored in this propaganda war isnt it? fact of the matter is civilian casualties are inevitable. every war ever has had civilian casualties and they usually outweigh militant casualties. is your suggestion that everyone stop fighting isis in fear of civilian suffering?

It would be nice if Assad were fighting ISIS instead of his own people. Just saying.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

The two independent specialists from Britain and China in on it too?

Did you read my post? They will give a technical explanation saying that it is impossible to say with certainty, but the Russians will downplay that in favor of emphasizing that the plane was no threat to Turkey.

And if it turns out to be conclusive what will you say then?