Downed Russian SU-24 black box first information

If you think you can trust Russia and those on Russian's side, you are an idiot. If you think you can trust Turkey and those on Turkey's side, you are an idiot. With all thats happened in this world in the recent past, how can we trust either side to be telling the truth on anything?

Today update from Russia (according to a Hellenic article) : The flight data from the black box cannot be recovered link

a reply to: Ploutonas

According to Turkish sources ;

The other plane which didn't get shot down also had it's blackbox stolen while being refuelled apperantly .



I don't know about anyone else but the other plane's "blackbox stolen while it is in a hangar in Latkia military base story" sounds hilarious to me .

I wonder how many spies from how many different countries are operating out of Russian military base in Latkia ?

Well, Sputnik has published its version. Here it is:

Experts from China, Great Britain and the US have participated in decoding of the flight recorder of the Russian Su-24 jet downed by Turkey over Syria, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

Foreign experts have no complaints over Su-24 "black box" decoding, the Defense Ministry added.

The decoding of the "black box" from a Russian warplane downed by Turkey is impossible with available means due to severe damage to internal memory boards and will require help from scientific institutions possessing advanced data retrieval and decoding technology, the Russian Defense Ministry said Monday.

Sputnik [Emphasis mine. --DJW001]

The first paragraph asserts that the plane was over Syria. This is what the investigation was supposded to determine. It then emphasizes that foreign witnesses had no problem with the decoding. Finally, it admits that the black box is useless, and the actual position of the plane could not be determined. So which is it? Was it over Syria, or do we still not know?

Davutoglu condemned Russia for the raids (against ISIS) in Syria : link

thats some funny news we got...

So it appears that we will have to decide between the two datasets...

The Turkish dataset which shows the Russian plane clearly being "hit" in Syrian air...by a missile track that is a bit illogical.

OR

The Russian dataset that shows the Russian plane clearly being "hit" in Syrian air...but with a far more believable missile track...

If we take the Turkish version this plane was "fired" upon at a distance of around 10 miles. with the Turkish plane NOT following the Russian...Some say the missile was an AIM-9C...actually not possible since the AIM-9c is a semi-active radar guided...it would require the radar transmitters in the F-16 for guidance...again the F-16 did not follow the Russian plane. The other possibility would be an AIM-120...very possible for this to work out well...except for the "timing"...

The time from missile "fire" to impact should be about 40 seconds, and the speed of the AIM-9c would make that so...the AIM-120 is somewhat faster, thus the point of impact, the time to impact is all wrong. This would suggest that it was indeed an AIM-9(c?), but other factors in the Turkish data are wrong...for instance; the range of the AIM-9c is 22 miles, and the "track" taken to shoot down the Russian plane would have been just about 22 miles...rather "lucky" shot...

On the other hand; the Russian data makes absolutely perfect sense...the planes didn't have much distance separating them...unfortunately; that places both planes solidly inside Syrian airspace.

Another interesting feature is that in neither case did the Russian fail to comply with any instruction (warning) given. In the case of the Turkish dataset; the Russian plane only spent 10 seconds within Turkish airspace...i.e. it left as demanded. The Russian version of the data shows the plane changing course before it violated Turkish air.

Thus it appears to be rather clear that Turkey was the aggressor here and in violation of international convention and law (innocent passage / temporary passage).

As for what it is that they have given us...about what I expected...just BS!

a reply to: tanka418


The Tukish F-16s where hiding at low atlitute and waiting for the SU 24s.


The two SU 24s had done one bomb run from East to west.

- As the SU 24s were heading backt to their holding spot (Do North east) and waiting for orders to strike again. The two F-16s flew into position..... hiding in the Mountains at low altitude.


Turkish radar (Not the F-16s) monitored the two SU 24s on their holding spot do North east. and observed that the two SU 24s were going for a second bombrun. The two F-16 holding at a low altitude in the Mountains Close to the Syrian border were instructed by Turkish ground radar when to pop up and ingage the SUs.

The Turkish F-16 that fired the missile probably used a AIM 9X sidewider : en.wikipedia.org...

Some of the video fottage taken from the ground by Turkmen rebels have been edited, so that there is no Visual evidence about the two F-16s. Or the missiles flight path.

a reply to: tanka418

Since when is a bombing run considered innocent passage?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

Since when is a bombing run considered innocent passage?

Planet Putin dwellers probably believe that the pilot was bombing DAESH too .






followed by a conundrum ;





Blackbox & Russian truth ;

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

Since when is a bombing run considered innocent passage?

Since the bombing run wasn't in or against , or, involving Turkey (with the exception of a less than 2 mile wide appendage, where no bombs were dropped)

To all of y'all...if you decide to ignore the available data; that's on you. However, please don't try to force your uninformed, unsubstantiated opinion on everyone. Stick to and use the available data (not your opinion about the players).

a reply to: tanka418

So you are y'all denying that Turkey specifically warned Russia not to enter its airspace under any circumstances?

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: tanka418


The Tukish F-16s where hiding at low atlitute and waiting for the SU 24s.


The two SU 24s had done one bomb run from East to west.

- As the SU 24s were heading backt to their holding spot (Do North east) and waiting for orders to strike again. The two F-16s flew into position..... hiding in the Mountains at low altitude.

Do you have data to support this? If so, I'd like to review it.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: tanka418

So you are y'all denying that Turkey specifically warned Russia not to enter its airspace under any circumstances?

Well...actually, that isn't part of the dataset. But, if ya want to go there...accepted convention would give the Russian plane an opportunity to leave. So in either case, the Russians complied and did what they were supposed to; either leave, or change course so they don't enter.

a reply to: tanka418

Do you have data to support this? If so, I'd like to review it.

You can read this link. It supports just about the same statment. Also With a timeline, speeds and distance.
sputniknews.com...

There are also two different crash sites mentioned. One that Turkey claims and one that the Russians claim. The SU 24 could have only crashed at one Place. That is information one should also look into to determin who is giving you the facts.

image:




Here is a Turkish radar image that show their side of the story.

a reply to: spy66


That data I've seen and am using in my analysis. The best part of this data is that it shows Turkey clearly in the wrong, and in both datasets...

a reply to: spy66

I think the second one, was not a su24, but a helicopter, will search old news and edit this msg.

after edit : yes it was a helicopter here is the news (the translation is a bit off and I will make a fix)

link

After the shooting down of the Russian su-24 aircraft by a Turkish F16, information say they also shot down a Russian helicopter by ground rocket/missile. The helicopter made an emergency landing near the city of Latakia, which is controlled by the loyalist forces of Bashar Al Assad.

And I remember the news. right after turkey shot down the su-24, Russians send a helicopter to detect for survivors and the black box, but turkmen/turks launched missiles from the ground and russians couldn't approach the area for a while.

Thats the reason Russians bombarded the turkmen a couple of days after, maybe as a payback.

a reply to: DJW001

So you are y'all denying that Turkey specifically warned Russia not to enter its airspace under any circumstances?

Not only them but any plane entering their airspace would have consequences.

“What we have received from Russia this morning is that this was a mistake and that they respect Turkey’s borders and this will not happen again,” Davutoglu said of Saturday’s airspace violation, making clear Turkey would respond if provoked.

“Turkey’s rules of engagement apply to all planes, be they Syrian, Russian or from elsewhere. Turkey’s armed forces are very clearly instructed. Necessary steps would be taken against whoever violates Turkey’s borders, even if it’s a bird,” he said in the interview.

english.alarabiya.net...

So at least they aren't just singling out Russia.

a reply to: tanka418

accepted convention would give the Russian plane an opportunity to leave.

They did back in October, but after being warned of the consequences, and the fact Russia said it wouldn't happen again but it does shows they weren't being truthful, or they were seeing how far they could push it.

Do you not think Russia would shoot down another countries plane for violating their airspace after heeding the same warning they got from Turkey in Oct.?

So in either case, the Russians complied and did what they were supposed to; either leave, or change course so they don't enter.

Um no they didn't, or they wouldn't have lost a plane, or a pilot.

They knew long before this incident that they would face consequences for violating Turkish airspace again, and knowing that they let it happen...the question is why?

Good analysis on the following website. Going by match-ups to available video it does rule out the Russian crash-site claim.
The geo-location does match up with the more northerly crash site claim.

'Determining the crash site of Russian SU-24 shot down by Turkey'

ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk...

The geo-location finds and matches up the road where the rebels were firing on the Russians after ejection.

a reply to: DJW001

Who on Ceres cares? Or as Erdogan would say:

“a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack”.

Right, it can't. When we talk about Turkish planes in Syrian airspace, of course.

Why did it take Turkey just 17 seconds to shoot down Russian jet?

An ambush they waited for, innit?
Emperor Erdogan... kinda rolls great from the tounge.

X-ray analysis at the IAC's laboratory revealed the destruction of 13 of the flight recorder's 16 microchips. The remaining three are damaged, with two of them inoperative, according to the official.
...
The deciphering can only be continued with third party help, and will need more time, Bainetov said. The investigation commission is looking into involving specialized scientific research facilities capable of extracting information directly from the microchip's crystals.

sputniknews.com...