I want to get perspective on transgender people

Hello all. I know its time in our nation to continue (some might say start) the conversation for transgender people.
How should society classify a transgender persons sex? Options seem to be, their original sex, their newly designated sex, a single "new" sex or a two new sexes? I ask because some people are going to be very uncomfortable. So do we unisex ALL bathrooms? or add new types?

I also wanted to discuss something that is probably very sensitive and I really hope not to offend. When and why did transgender become identified as anything other than a gender identity order? I guess the same can be asked about homosexuality. It seems we need to discuss and come to the conclusion that this are either inherent in man or a mental disorder. I make no claims but it just seems logical to figure out. I'm kind of stuck on the chromosomes. You can't change your xy's.

I am but curious and kind of disgusted by tansgender people. I do not wish ill upon transgender. The thing is, I'm very attracted to women and when a woman or a man changes anatomy, its like... ( I'm trying to define it without using perversion) to the idea of women I hold dear . I hate saying it because I respect those people as individuals but I can't but help look away if I know someone is transgender.

Anyway, I just wanted to be open about how I feel because a discussion should be had. I wish all of you the best.

a reply to: Antipathy17

A guy with a wig and breast implants didn't stop being a guy...even if he decides to chop off the old braciole.

Sorry, that's just the way nature made it.

a reply to: Antipathy17

Any transperson willing to honestly address your questions will be wasting their breath and throwing pearls before swine.

People here do not want to learn, understand, nor accept the scientific/medical consensus of the issue nor concede to the probability they are basing their entire opinion of transpeople on outdated cliche representations.

You want answers from people you call disgusting? Good luck.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
Hello all. I know its time in our nation to continue (some might say start) the conversation for transgender people.
How should society classify a transgender persons sex? Options seem to be, their original sex, their newly designated sex, a single "new" sex or a two new sexes? I ask because some people are going to be very uncomfortable. So do we unisex ALL bathrooms? or add new types?

I also wanted to discuss something that is probably very sensitive and I really hope not to offend. When and why did transgender become identified as anything other than a gender identity order? I guess the same can be asked about homosexuality. It seems we need to discuss and come to the conclusion that this are either inherent in man or a mental disorder. I make no claims but it just seems logical to figure out. I'm kind of stuck on the chromosomes. You can't change your xy's.

I am but curious and kind of disgusted by tansgender people. I do not wish ill upon transgender. The thing is, I'm very attracted to women and when a woman or a man changes anatomy, its like... ( I'm trying to define it without using perversion) to the idea of women I hold dear . I hate saying it because I respect those people as individuals but I can't but help look away if I know someone is transgender.

Anyway, I just wanted to be open about how I feel because a discussion should be had. I wish all of you the best.

I was friends with two transgender people in college. They didn't really talk about it much and never really seemed to be comfortable with any questions so, I didn't really get to learn from them on a personal level.

Ever since the Bruce Jenner stories started coming out, it made me think about both of them. Both of them seemed to be at different parts of a spectrum though.

This is what I remember learning from them though.

One was a man that liked to dress and act like a woman and, he liked being with men.

The other was also a man but, he identified as a woman. He wanted to be with women.

I'll never forget something he said to me once.

He said he was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

It threw me for a bit of loop to be honest because I didn't get that he wanted to be a woman at the time.

It wasn't until recently that I had a light bulb moment I guess.

I still don't presume to really understand it all, that's just my personal experience.

a reply to: Abysha

Sadly you might be right but, not everyone here is like that.

Personally, It has actually made me want to learn more since Jenner came out.

It reminded me of the two friends I had in college.

They didn't like to talk about much so, I didn't really learn much from them.

a reply to: Abysha

I never said they are disgusting. I am just personally duagusted... Something I am trying to overcome.

Wasting their breath answering my questions why, soley because I am repulsed? seems ignorant since I'm stepping out of my comfortability to better help them in theirs

You want answers from people you call disgusting? Good luck.

What she said.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
a reply to: Abysha

I never said they are disgusting. I am just personally duagusted... Something I am trying to overcome.

Wasting their breath answering my questions why, soley because I am repulsed? seems ignorant since I'm stepping out of my comfortability to better help them in theirs

Wasting breath because no matter what is said and no matter what information is presented, people will drag out their out-dated terminology and archaic definitions that fit their comfortable views of gender and sexuality, disregarding any advancements or followups in the subject.

Ignorance is embedded into nostalgia and nostalgia has a powerful hold on people. People are scared to acknowledge their world is not exactly the way they thought it was. That Pluto is not a planet, that particle physics is different than when they grew up, that Obama was born in America, and that their binary understanding of gender is incomplete and flawed.

I have yet to see a member on here actually respond to new information (about anything really) with a shift in their flawed thinking.

There are several threads on it and several instances exactly like the ones I described. Each met with disrespect and ill-intentions with the subject matter experts being insulted and demeaned. Like I said, it's not really worth it on ATS to discuss it.

a reply to: Antipathy17

For me, my observations from my side of the fence is neutral: I have gone out with transgender people before - in terms of what sex I'd classify them: I'd classify them as the gender they appear to be. When I went out with them or talked with them, I felt without a doubt that they were female inside and out - They felt they were female on the inside, and I'd have to agree with them.

Trans has always been around; it's just now coming to light more and more because certain famous people have come out, making it easier for those that fall into the category to speak up. And it can be classified as a mental disorder, just as practically anything nowadays (DSM-V has computer-related disorders now).

Personally, I don't care either way - Because their decision doesn't have an impact on how I live my life. I don't see it as gross, any more than people that get piercings or tattoos are gross. If a girl is checking me out, I'm chatting with them because I see them as a girl (as they'd like to be seen).

Try talking to someone that is a trans - it might be better than speculation in a thread.

-foss

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Antipathy17
a reply to: Abysha

I never said they are disgusting. I am just personally duagusted... Something I am trying to overcome.

Wasting their breath answering my questions why, soley because I am repulsed? seems ignorant since I'm stepping out of my comfortability to better help them in theirs

Wasting breath because no matter what is said and no matter what information is presented, people will drag out their out-dated terminology and archaic definitions that fit their comfortable views of gender and sexuality, disregarding any advancements or followups in the subject.

Ignorance is embedded into nostalgia and nostalgia has a powerful hold on people. People are scared to acknowledge their world is not exactly the way they thought it was. That Pluto is not a planet, that particle physics is different than when they grew up, that Obama was born in America, and that their binary understanding of gender is incomplete and flawed.

I have yet to see a member on here actually respond to new information (about anything really) with a shift in their flawed thinking.

There are several threads on it and several instances exactly like the ones I described. Each met with disrespect and ill-intentions with the subject matter experts being insulted and demeaned. Like I said, it's not really worth it on ATS to discuss it.

I don't entirely agree and that's why I created this thread. For now, yes ignorance will reign. The discussion may be spoken by adults but those fighting for equality (true equality, not like how some feminists or race equality people over reach and opress others) will inspire a new generation of thought. Slavery didn't just end, it took time.

originally posted by: fossilera
a reply to: Antipathy17

For me, my observations from my side of the fence is neutral: I have gone out with transgender people before - in terms of what sex I'd classify them: I'd classify them as the gender they appear to be. When I went out with them or talked with them, I felt without a doubt that they were female inside and out - They felt they were female on the inside, and I'd have to agree with them.

Trans has always been around; it's just now coming to light more and more because certain famous people have come out, making it easier for those that fall into the category to speak up. And it can be classified as a mental disorder, just as practically anything nowadays (DSM-V has computer-related disorders now).

Personally, I don't care either way - Because their decision doesn't have an impact on how I live my life. I don't see it as gross, any more than people that get piercings or tattoos are gross. If a girl is checking me out, I'm chatting with them because I see them as a girl (as they'd like to be seen).

Try talking to someone that is a trans - it might be better than speculation in a thread.

-foss

I respect your reply. I'd like to talk to someone who is trans. I was kind of hoping here might be my opportunity. Not too many of them floating around, than you have to factor in how many of them are just failures as people as all of us can be. so I don't get ill be having a genuinely progressive discuss with one any time soon.

Does Bruce Jenner buy tampons?

originally posted by: Poppcocked
Does Bruce Jenner buy tampons?

completely irrelevant. Thanks for not contributing.

originally posted by: Antipathy17

originally posted by: Poppcocked
Does Bruce Jenner buy tampons?

completely irrelevant. Thanks for not contributing.

The stars on his post should tell you all you need to know as to why anybody may be reluctant to even try to speak seriously on the subject.



When every attempt at educating a person is reduced to the same juvenile dismissals, rediculous comparisons, and idiotic oversimplifications, it becomes difficult to believe in a person's sincerity when they say "No, seriously, I want to learn from you even though I find you invalid and disgusting".

originally posted by: Antipathy17

I hate saying it because I respect those people as individuals
but I can't but help look away if I know someone is transgender.

First, let's come to terms with the fact there are
many "two spirited" people in this world and this
has always been true.

The most frequently cited estimate is that 700,000
people in the United States, or about 0.2 to 0.3 percent
of the population, are transgender, though some experts
say the true number is probably greater than that.

Second, the reason you "look away" is because
of your FEAR. It is the same reason people will
"look away" when they see a person with a face
that is disfigured: FEAR.

When we see a person with a physical deformity,
it is quite common to look away. Why? Because
we FEAR how such a deformity would effect our
quality of life. If we FEAR how other people
might treat us, we look away, not wanting
to entertain that disturbing idea.

It is also common to stare at a person who is
androgynous, because they are attractive.
This attraction can provoke toxic emotions
in some people. They can become discussed
by their own desires. Why? Once again FEAR.
In such is case it is a FEAR of other people's
judgement, and other people's opions.

Most TRANS people you pass on the street
go by completely unnoticed. Most female
to male TRANS people who have facial
hair are completely passable, and you
would never know.

The issue here is why you "look away."

I suggest the reason is you, and others
like you, are still seeking validation
from other people. When you let go
of that need for validation, then you
start to love and accept other people
who are different from you.

Here is something to consider:

L = LISTEN
- those who do not love, do not listen. When we refuse to listen, we refuse to love.

O = BE OPEN
- those who love, are open. When we are open, there is healing for the world.

V = VALUE VERITAS
- those who do not love, value the valueless (and the Truth is not in them)

E = BE EMPHATIC
- those who do love, have compassion for themselves and others.

a reply to: Antipathy17

For a few transgender Americans, this has been a year of glamour and fame. For many others, 2015 has been fraught with danger, violence and mourning.

While Caitlyn Jenner made the cover of Vanity Fair and Laverne Cox prospered as a popular actress, other transgender women have become homicide victims at an alarming rate. By the count of the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, there have been 22 killings so far this year of transgender or gender-nonconforming people — including 19 black or Latina transgender women.

The toll compares with 12 last year and 13 in 2013, and is the highest since advocacy groups began such tallies a decade ago. "Most Americans think it's been an amazing year for transgender rights," said Mara Keisling, executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality. "But for the transgender community, it's been one of the most traumatic years on record."

apnews.myway.com...

The high death toll this year may stem in part from
greater awareness of anti-transgender violence, and
more vigorous efforts to identify homicide cases in
which this was a factor.

In the neighborhood I live in six TS sex workers were
killing and their dead bodies left in trash dumpsters
in the space of only six month. This was not reported
by the news media.

The article above states "15 percent of transgender
homicide victims in the past three years were killed
by intimate partners, and 34 percent may have been
engaged in "survival sex work" at the time of their deaths.

In Detroit this year was Amber Monroe, 20, shot dead in
an area frequented by prostitutes. A friend said Monroe
had twice previously been wounded by gunshots in that area.

"To go back to that same place, life has to feel like you have
no other choice," her friend said.

Then there is the issue of suicide. 41% of TRANS people try
to kill themselves at some point in their lives, compared with
4.6% of the general public. Those numbers are alarming high!

www.huffingtonpost.com...

There's nothing inherently wrong with being transgender.
There is something horribly, horribly wrong with the way
we as a culture treat transgender people.

a reply to: Abysha

Your attitude is terrible. Someone asks for more information, because they're perhaps realizing that transgender people may be more than fags in dresses, and you lash out at them. You're what you hate, and you don't realize it.

We have an OP being honest, and because they don't automatically say that transgender people are all beautiful and that they are in no way uncomfortable with the whole thing, you refuse to answer any questions and belittle them.

Sex reassignment surgery is incredibly disturbing/disgusting unless you know more about it. Not everyone gets it, so to them it's someone that has mental problems, self mutilating a VERY sacred part of their body because the mental problems are still not understood. Instead of being morally superior, why don't you try to explain that for these people the issue is more that they are born with a defect, that their brains don't align with their genitalia, and it's not the same thing as wearing a garish outfit for attention or getting your tongue split for shock value?

There are a few people here that have been very patient with me, and it's greatly changed my perspective. I never hated or wished harm on transgender people, but I was very unaccepting of them. It's incredibly hard for me to wrap my head around, I can't imagine having my gender identity not match my sex. A lot of the hostility I harbored towards transgender people was because I've only seen the type that insist everyone accept them completely and fully. Freija wasn't an asshole, so I listened to her and did a little growing up. She didn't revert to the kind of petty crap you seem to love. I went from intentionally calling male to female folks "he" to piss people off, to supporting legislation protecting transgender people from discrimination. I'm coming around on the bathroom "issue" too.

Really take a look at your tactic. If you actually want to be a good ambassador for yourself (making assumptions, I'm aware of the spelling) or something you believe in, be professional. you're just fanning the flames of hate and division when you invalidate how someone feels and insult their morals and intelligence.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
How should society classify a transgender persons sex?

As people first.

Options seem to be, their original sex, their newly designated sex, a single "new" sex or a two new sexes?

We don't have the language for it currently, and people are resistant to it despite it being a good descriptor of personal experiences. Can actually tell you a lot of useful information knowing someone's accurate gender descriptor.

Side note, yes some people try to be special. I don't care about it.

So do we unisex ALL bathrooms?

Unisex IMO. Toilet is for pooping.

When and why did transgender become identified as anything other than a gender identity order?

The 'inherent' or 'mental disorder' debate is regularly had by people with zero understanding of the subject matter. It isn't all that black and white. There are on going discussions about what qualifies as a mental disorder and not, and if mental disorder is even the correct term. One leading psychiatrist refers to psychopaths as 'neurologically different' rather than disordered. Many psychiatrists suggest that some things are only considered 'disordered' because we believe they're evil in modern terms.

Psychology and psychiatry has always been conflated with morality because people assume that any 'disorder' must result in evil outcomes. This isn't true either.

One concept is ... if the person who hasn't it isn't bothered, if it isn't harming anyone else, then what's the problem?

I'm kind of stuck on the chromosomes. You can't change your xy's.

Some people have simultaneous XX and XY karotypes from birth or various other configurations.

Human gender is quite variable. Whether that is from a mishap, hormonal imbalance, or mutation it doesn't change the fact that the person should be allowed to address it. Saying 'I'm not quite one or the other' doesn't really capture that experience and nor does saying 'I have an illness.'

CAH people for example. Is it really a disorder later in life when someone looks female but has male interests and demeanor or is it just who they are by that stage? Its not that nice to say 'I am a but...' all your life.

Many people do this odd thing any only ever want to discuss trans* people and forget intersex entirely. They might throw a line like 'but thats a disorder, thats different' or something like this except intersex people are one of the reasons gender transitioning technology exists.

I hate saying it because I respect those people as individuals but I can't but help look away if I know someone is transgender.

Discomfort happens.

I have a thing where certain 'styles' or body structures of people make me feel threatened or suspect the person has a low IQ. Have learned this is my instincts and not 'me' since I've done the appropriate tests to prove myself wrong. The human brain has odd thoughts sometimes and sometimes you just have to realize that's what they are.

If you've been cultured to become a specific gender then seeing someone else 'transition' behaviors will bother your brain many times I think. You just get used to it after a while.

Can U2U book names if you want. Enjoy.

It's three-forty in the morning. I worked a long busy day then spent considerable time composing a very verbose reply in another transgender related thread on the chromosome thing but gave up before posting it because it was really long and I was half loopy writing it and exhausted.

So what do I do? Go to bed and scan the board on my phone one last time and find this thread. I'm going to jump in for a quick minute to say I know quite a bit about all this and am willing to at least give a shot at trying to answer questions.

I certainly can relate to the sentiments expressed by Abysha about how trying to bring some understanding and knowledge about trans stuff often seems like a pointless endeavor. It is very frustrating for all the reasons noted and disheartening to see so many closed minds and drive-by wannabe comedians coming in for a quick poke at the expense of trans people. Heck, even some of the trans people that are here don't get along because they are all so different.

Most of the time, I've got pretty thick skin and can deal with, tolerate or ignore some of the attitudes and detractors because every once and a while talking about this can get through and make a difference. Domo1 is a good example and people like him are what motivate me to try and help folks wrap their heads around these things.

I'm no expert but am pretty knowledgeable in certain areas. "Transgender" covers a broad spectrum of people and things and I can't speak to all or for all of them but if you or anyone else is interested in actually raising their level of understanding in at least the areas I know, I'm willing to share. It won't be easy though, there will be a lot crap to wade through if history is any indication. There are a couple of older threads here too that are real gems of information once separated from the chaff.

So as I struggle to focus and keep my eyes open, I just wanted to say that I'll play along. Even if the OP doesn't know the right terms or innocently says things that may unknowingly be rude but without malice or even doesn't know the kind of things he doesn't know, as long as questions are sincere and the interest genuine and not a perverse curiosity, I might be able to explain a few things. I'll even try to play nice!

As long as I sleep first. Ugh!

a reply to: Domo1

Sex reassignment surgery is incredibly disturbing/disgusting unless you know more about it. Not everyone gets it, so to them it's someone that has mental problems, self mutilating a VERY sacred part of their body because the mental problems are still not understood.

The fact that you are still referring to transgenderism has a mental disorder and the operation of sex reassignment as disgusting is proof of Abaysha's point.