9/11 Bombshell: Methodical Deception -- Rebekah Roth

a reply to: PublicOpinion

First off, the alert fighters weren't part of the exercise. Arming and launching fighters takes longer than the attack lasted. Even if every fighter was on the ground it would have taken 90 minutes to put a minimum weapons load on the first aircraft, even if they knew exactly where they were.

Secondly, no I don't think our pilots are that bad, but just like shooting a missile or gun at a plane doesn't look like a Hollywood movie, neither does ramming. Just because you ram the plane, doesn't mean it instantly falls out of the sky straight down. It could fly on for miles, go out of control and straight down, or any number of other things.

So you're saying that ATC was affected by the exercise to then. I'm sure that's news to them.

Here's a link to a Google Earth image capture with the QUIT radar returns. Click on the zoom feature if you want to read the labels, they show the times.

s256.photobucket.com...

a reply to: Zaphod58

Nothing happened that day, right. Why should they do from the beginning what Nasypany later suggested himself?

They already knew that planes started to hit buildings, didn't they?

a reply to: Zaphod58

Where was the rest of the 1st Air Force btw.? You don't really think exercises didn't play any role that day whatsoever, do you? I don't talk about blimps yet, that's just the mainstream-part of this story.

So you are saying the fat airliner can easily outmaneuver a F-16? No way to cause some massive trouble behind? And I'm supposed to believe that you guys are aviation pros now?

Meh, not very convincing.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Because by the time they climbed high enough to reach 1100 mph, and accelerated to 1100 mph, it's already 5 of that seven minutes, and they still aren't near Washington. You don't take off at 180 mph, and instantly reach 1100 mph. And they can't even reach 1000 mph at low altitude, so they have to climb.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Try actually reading.

The rest of 1st AF would have been unarmed. It would take 90 minutes for a minimum weapons load on the first aircraft. And all of 1st AF wasn't involved in exercises. So they were already sitting on the ground. The only aircraft that were armed were launched, and they couldn't shoot even if they were overhead at impact.

Where the hell did I even come close to saying they could out maneuver an F-16. Contrary to what you would have people believe a midair collision doesn't immediately cause both aircraft to fall straight down and crash. An F-16 hitting a much larger aircraft doesn't guarantee that it's going to crash where you want it to.

a reply to: Zaphod58

... F-16s have a maximum speed of 1,500 mph at high altitude, or 915 mph at sea level, so the three fighters could plausibly travel the 130 miles from Langley Air Force Base to Washington in just minutes. [CHANT, 1987, PP. 404; ASSOCIATED PRESS, 6/16/2000; USA TODAY, 9/16/2001; WASHINGTON POST, 9/16/2001 pdf file; US AIR FORCE, 10/2007] Major General Larry Arnold, the commanding general of NORAD’s Continental US Region, will tell the 9/11 Commission, “I think if those aircraft had gotten airborne immediately, if we were operating under something other than peacetime rules, where they could have turned immediately toward Washington, DC, and gone into burner, it is physically possible that they could have gotten over Washington” before 9:37, when the Pentagon is hit.

www.historycommons.org...

There is no point in discussing this further if you can't offer a source for your 1100 mph only. That's completely new for me, but I'm curious to see why Arnold was wrong there as well.

a reply to: Zaphod58

The rest of 1st AF would have been unarmed. It would take 90 minutes for a minimum weapons load on the first aircraft. And all of 1st AF wasn't involved in exercises. So they were already sitting on the ground. The only aircraft that were armed were launched, and they couldn't shoot even if they were overhead at impact.

Funny times, let's go that way then. How many planes were already in use due to exercises and how many actually could've been scrambled?

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Again, READ. I said they could do it in seven minutes AT 1100 mph. Where did I say that was as fast as they could go? That's how fast they would have to be going to reach there in the 7 minutes you keep quoting.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

I have no idea and no plan to figure it out. That gets into how many aircraft are in maintenance, how many were available for launch, etc. But to give you your first clue, Langley is home to First Fighter Wing. On 9/11 they had 66 F-15s assigned. Not all of those were flying at the time.

a reply to: Zaphod58



Yes I do speak a foreign language, blaim silly me the Kraut if you like. Thanks for clarification anyway, think we did quite well so far.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

What's the matter with you guys? Ramming the plane before it could inflict more damage would've been nothing you say?

Suppose the aircraft you rammed was trying to head to an airport because of an emergency? Suppose you rammed the wrong aircraft.

In any case, the pilots did not have the authority to down any civilian aircraft.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Zaphod58

... F-16s have a maximum speed of 1,500 mph at high altitude, or 915 mph at sea level, so the three fighters could plausibly travel the 130 miles from Langley Air Force Base to Washington in just minutes. [CHANT, 1987, PP. 404; ASSOCIATED PRESS, 6/16/2000; USA TODAY, 9/16/2001; WASHINGTON POST, 9/16/2001 pdf file; US AIR FORCE, 10/2007] Major General Larry Arnold, the commanding general of NORAD’s Continental US Region, will tell the 9/11 Commission, “I think if those aircraft had gotten airborne immediately, if we were operating under something other than peacetime rules, where they could have turned immediately toward Washington, DC, and gone into burner, it is physically possible that they could have gotten over Washington” before 9:37, when the Pentagon is hit.

www.historycommons.org...

There is no point in discussing this further if you can't offer a source for your 1100 mph only. That's completely new for me, but I'm curious to see why Arnold was wrong there as well.

Why are you assuming Arnold was wrong?

He's the one who said "if" they would've gotten airborne immediately they would've made it to Washington in time.

He's the one who said "if" they were operating under something other than peacetime rules they would've made it to Washington in time.

If, if, if… If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's butt when it hopped.


It's you and your unreliable source that twisted his 1100 mile-per-hour speed of F-15s already at altitude and speed in New York to be applicable to F-16s that were at sea level and had just departed at speeds much, much lower than 1100 miles per hour.

It would be like saying a Bugatti Veyron traveling at 267 mph can cover 5 miles in one minute and four seconds. Then claiming it should also be able to cover 5 miles in the same amount of time from a standing start. This is getting beyond absurd now.

Okay, let's nip this in the bud once and for all. Contrary to what Gen. Arnold claimed, the alert NORAD fighters could not fly at 1100 miles per hour.

According to NORAD:

The maximum operational speed of the alert configured F-15A Eagles at Otis on 9/11 was approximately 750 knots true airspeed (863 mph or 1.3 Mach) at 40,000 feet.

The maximum operational speed of the alert configured F-16A's at Langley was 802 knots true airspeed (924 mph or 1.4 Mach) at 40,000 feet.

It is 129 miles from the far Eastern end of the Langley runway to the Pentagon. We'll pretend for this exercise that the F-16s were able to reach their maximum speed of 924 mph the instant they took off and were able to maintain that speed all the way to the Pentagon without any considerations for other air traffic, altitude, turns or climbs to altitude.

129 miles at 924 mph would take 8 minutes and 22 seconds.

Considering a 9:30 exact liftoff time, that would've put the Langley F-16s over the Pentagon at 9:38:22, nearly 30 seconds after Flight 77 impacted.

I think we can consider this argument done and dusted.

a reply to: Boone 870

done and dusted.

...if one is up to say that 924 mph was their max speed, which would be ridiculous at best.
They were in the known, were they not?

Do you know how many scramble-ready jets the 1st. AF had at it's disposal that day? Just curious how many were training to fight the Russians, heard that exercise was quite big. Strange coincidence, don't ya think?
Not that I wanna shift goals but discussing top-speeds with regards to war-time situations and stuff tends to be a bit boring.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

They had the aircraft on alert scramble ready. Those were the only aircraft prepped and ready to launch. As for other aircraft that could be preflighted and launched, as I said last night, only some of their aircraft were in Vigilant Guardian. As for the rest there is no way to know.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

...if one is up to say that 924 mph was their max speed, which would be ridiculous at best.
They were in the known, were they not?

924 mph is their top speed with external fuel tanks and missiles hanging off of them. What would be ridiculous is to assume that an F-16 with two external fuel tanks and a bunch of missiles hanging off of it would have the same top speed as the outright (clean, no fuel tanks or missiles) "advertised" speed mentioned in the articles I just linked. I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say "they were in the known, where they not?", can you clarify?

Do you know how many scramble-ready jets the 1st. AF had at it's disposal that day?

On the continental United States they had 14 armed jets ready to scramble.

Just curious how many were training to fight the Russians, heard that exercise was quite big.

Irrelevant. The US had only had 14 fighters on alert at 7 different Air Force bases since 1999. There could've been 100 F-16s at Langley and they still wouldn't have been armed. The article I linked to earlier says, "because of the inherent danger, aircraft are not routinely loaded with live (explosive) ordinance unless they are performing an actual air sovereignty mission."

The above statement can be further evidenced by the fact that NORAD had three F-16s ready to fly at Langley, but only two of them had weapons. Also, this can be further evidenced by the fact that NEADS could not find any other air National Guard units with armed fighters ready to go, including Michigan and New York. Further evidence can be found by the fact that Andrews didn't have any armed fighters. Same way at Langley itself, they were unable to launch more armed fighters for nearly an hour and a half.

Strange coincidence, don't ya think?

Do I think it's strange that the military has exercises to train for their mission? No, not even a little.

Not that I wanna shift goals but discussing top-speeds with regards to war-time situations and stuff tends to be a bit boring.

There is nothing else left to discuss. The article I linked to earlier proves your claims of top speed to be BUNK.

a reply to: Boone 870

14 planes, that's interesting. Can you provide a source? How many were taking part in trainings? (just asking again as additional craft in the air, due to trainings, could've been of help as well)

I was referring to the time in advance, the time in which the FAA managed to mess things up. They were "in the known" but unable to pass that information.

And yes, correct. 924 mph is the top speed with burner, sorry for that one. 30 sec's is close but still a miss then, if your timeline is correct. We have different accounts for the exact time of take-off if I'm not mistaken now. Another reason to scrutinize this topic further, thanks for the clarification!

a reply to: PublicOpinion

None of the 14 were taking part in the exercise. They are never part of any exercise. They're sole mission is to respond to potential threats. They sit in a shelter off the end of the runway, and are rotated out for other aircraft every so often.

The US and Canada had a combined total of 20 aircraft for all of North America armed and ready to launch on 9/11. There were 14 in the US and six in Canada.

www.nbcnews.com...

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
And yes, correct. 924 mph is the top speed with burner, sorry for that one.

Try looking at how long they can have the afterburners on for before running out of fuel...