The "Gun Show Loophole" and Other Myths

I've had to address this topic in several threads and, with election season upon us, I've seen the same old myths being thrown around about guns. I'd like to clarify a few things for the less-informed among the ATS membership.

1) The "Gun Show Loophole." What is it?

-The Gun Show Loophole is the supposed ability of a person to walk into a gun show and buy guns without a background check. The term and description is incredibly misleading and here's why:

The folks who pay for a table at a gun show are licensed dealers 99.9% of the time. A non-licensed individual CAN pay for a table but they can only sell guns from their private collection and in over 15 years of attending and working at gun shows, I've seen 2 tables operated in this manner. Licensed dealers, whether at their store or at a gun show, MUST have paperwork and a background check on every sale.

If a non-licensed person is walking around the gun show with a firearm they wish to sell, and another non-licensed person wants to buy it, those individuals can do business just as they would in the parking lot or anywhere else for that matter. The fact that a person can walk into a gun show and buy a gun from an unlicensed person walking around the show is not a "loophole" any more than being able to buy a gun from someone who listed it in the newspaper classifieds is a "loophole."

2) We need background checks!

-Some people seem to think that anyone can walk into a gun store, buy a gun like they're buying a sandwich, and walk out. They claim that background checks would stop mentally ill people from getting guns.

All licensed dealers must do a number of things when selling a gun. First, they use their judgement to determine the character of the buyer. Second, they must see a valid government-issued photo ID. Third, they have the buyer fill out a legal document that asks the following questions: Click me. Fourth, they use a phone or the internet to access the FBI National Criminal Instant Background Check System (NICS) and, after inputting the buyer's information, the dealer will receiver a status of "Approved, Delayed, or Denied." States are notoriously bad at reporting dangerous mental cases to the system so the checks are not effective at stopping sales to those individuals.

3) We need waiting periods!

-Some people think that waiting periods would keep unstable people from committing murder.

Several states have waiting periods and there is no evidence that those requirements have any effect on crime. There was a federal waiting period for 4 years and it had no effect on crime rates which is why it was discontinued. Since mass shootings are the cases that people seem most worried about, there is no evidence that most of those shooters bought their guns immediately before the shooting so a waiting period would not have made a difference. The vast majority of shootings don't occur immediately after the criminal purchased the gun so waiting periods would accomplish little more than leaving people defenseless who have an urgent need for protection (people who've been threatened, abused women scared of their abuser, etc.)

4)"Assault weapons" should be banned!

-Semi-automatic military style rifles have been at the forefront of the push for more gun laws. Many politicians want to ban these types of rifles outright because "they're made for killing people."

Even though this type of firearm is one of the most popular in the US, they account for a statistically insignificant number of murders. They are used in some highly-publicized mass shootings, which is why they're demonized. These types of rifles are used for home defense, hunting, sport, competition, and collecting. The majority of murders are committed with handguns because they are easily transported and concealed. The Assault Weapons Ban spanned from 1994 to 2004 and the ban had no noticeable effect on crime rates or the number of mass shootings.

5)We need magazine capacity limits.

-High capacity magazines are often demonized because "the shooter can do a lot of damage before they have to reload."

High capacity magazines were banned by the Assault Weapons Ban and, again, that ban didn't affect crime or mass shootings. They are currently banned in several states but those states haven't seen an effect on murder rates. High capacity magazines are what the firearm manufacturers typically design their guns around. The larger capacity is used for sport shooting, target shooting, competitions, and useful for defensive purposes.

6) We need a registry of firearms.

-The belief is that having all firearms registered would reduce the ability of criminals to get guns.

Some states require registration and/or purchase permits for firearms. Those states haven't seen an effect on murder rates and a vast number of firearms go unregistered proving that the system is ineffective.




The point of this thread is to educate people about areas of the current gun laws about which they are unfamiliar. I've seen a lot of people calling for laws that are already on the books. The anti gun propaganda would have you believe that firearms are not regulated at all and if only there were more restrictions, the problems would go away. They never mention the failures of current and past laws to have the desired effect.

What we need are harsher punishments for criminals who use guns or possess them illegally. The current laws are ineffective primarily because the legal system is ineffective. More laws will only affect law-abiding citizens as long as the actual criminals aren't punished accordingly.

a reply to: Answer

Well said.

Permitless concealed carry has been adopted by a couple of states already and it promises to be enacted in many more.

That is people exercising their 2nd amendment, any restrictions infringe upon it.

a reply to: Answer

Excellent informative post. My Uncle is a licensed dealer and sells at trade shows. Anyone that buys from him has to have a background check ran before the firearm can be turned over to the purchaser...he even complains at how long checks can take sometimes due to the volume of background checks being performed because trade shows are in town.

Thank you for educating.

Excellent Opening Post

Now let's see who 'disagrees".

S&F excellent post ! Hard for many to argue with facts and I doubt you will get much response from the anti's for your post did not have enough "emotional content" based on "emotion" and not easily known facts. Funny how we are always drawn to the 2d while the first and 4th (probably others) are destroyed.

I think you are right there.

And to answer what would help with violent gun crime.

End the War on Drugs.

Historically back when prohibition came about. Violent crime shot up.

And guess what happen when prohibition ended? It came back down.

Ending the War on Drugs won't stop violent crime. But it will help.

Well crafted thread. I've seen you make a number of these points more than once.

Nice to see you put it all together in one well laid out post for the confused. I would expect some to demand stats to back some of that up, though.

Forewarned is forearmed.

a reply to: Answer

Bravo! Beautiful job of listing the facts, and how the various restrictions don't lower crime rates. Hopefully, a lot of people will read this and learn the truth. Well, we can hope!

Thank you so much for making this thread that I wish I had thought of. S&F for you.

I'm not sure where some people come up with things they believe. I tend to get too emotional when confronted with false or incomplete facts, so good on you for keeping this post so well written.

originally posted by: Excallibacca
Thank you so much for making this thread that I wish I had thought of. S&F for you.

I'm not sure where some people come up with things they believe. I tend to get too emotional when confronted with false or incomplete facts, so good on you for keeping this post so well written.

All sides of a polarizing issue tend to cherry-pick statistics, leave out certain information, and use partial facts to support their agenda.

Notice I said ALL sides. The only way to find the truth is to do your own research and seek out unbiased information. Unbiased information does not typically come from any sort of media.

Every person I've talked to who holds a lot of incorrect beliefs about firearms has been the victim of propaganda or they just run with what they've heard from another uninformed source. They believe what they've been told and haven't done enough of their own research because it's a topic that does not hold their interest. We tend to know a lot about the things that interest us but don't waste a lot of brainpower learning about the rest.

Unfortunately, a lot of gun owners take it personally when a person dislikes guns and they don't take the time to have a civilized conversation to find out why. I've changed several people's minds just by educating them a bit and sticking to facts. It doesn't help the situation if both sides just talk crap about each other like a bunch of children.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Well crafted thread. I've seen you make a number of these points more than once.

Nice to see you put it all together in one well laid out post for the confused. I would expect some to demand stats to back some of that up, though.

Forewarned is forearmed.

I'm well aware that "where's your source/stats?" is a favorite line on this site but my hope is that people with doubts will do their own research since that is the path to learning. There are also multiple sources for the information I've posted and each holds a slightly different perspective so it's good reading.

9 times out of 10, people just attack the legitimacy of the source material so this way, they can pick their own source from Google.

Call it what you will....in this day and age, the unmitigated ability to transfer ownership of an instrument of death from one private citizen to another has run it's course. It is past time that such transfers of ownership follow standard federal guidelines.

It is just a drop in the bucket, but every little bit counts. I'm a gun owner (several times over) and those who stomp their foot at any and all regulation give the rest of us a bad rap.....you guys/gals also belong on a federal database....if for no other reason, because of your fanatical, obsessive gun rights fetish. That ish is borderline psychotic.

right down the middle sums it all up......
proud to know ya fellow texans

a reply to: LeatherNLace

Which "guys and gals" would that be?

a reply to: Answer

Great thread! The gun show loophole BS that everyone keys on is simply BS to get folks worked up and has no basis in fact. Every show I've been to had dealers completing checks and verifying IDs. I'm sure people will scuff and say you have no clue, but they've probably never been to a show.

Thank you!

a reply to: Answer

Firstly, its a nice little opinion piece you wrote.

But obviously a large amount of your opinions aren't actually supported by the cold hard facts.

1. The US has the most unrestricted gun laws in the developed world, which results in the most gun crime in the developed world

2. The US is the only developed country that regularly has mass shootings

3. Although most mass shootings that occur in the US don't involve a semi-auto assault rifle and high capacity magazines, the most devastating mass shootings commonly do.

4. State borders are no obstacle to organized criminal gangs who trade in illegal guns

5. There are many loopholes in US gun regulations that allow criminals to freely purchase firearms, well going undetected by authorities.

6. Organized criminal gangs are fully aware of these loopholes and never hesitate to take full advantage of them.

All gun rights advocates a probably fully aware of these established facts, but they rarely say them out loud and usually get very offended when someone brings attention to them.

But other than that, go guns and the 2nd amendment!!!. All power to you, i suppose.

Just thought this thread needed some balancing out, is all.

originally posted by: LeatherNLace
Call it what you will....in this day and age, the unmitigated ability to transfer ownership of an instrument of death from one private citizen to another has run it's course. It is past time that such transfers of ownership follow standard federal guidelines.

It is just a drop in the bucket, but every little bit counts. I'm a gun owner (several times over) and those who stomp their foot at any and all regulation give the rest of us a bad rap.....you guys/gals also belong on a federal database....if for no other reason, because of your fanatical, obsessive gun rights fetish. That ish is borderline psychotic.

That's right, no more car sales!

And don't get me started on wood chippers, the bane of civilized society...

originally posted by: LeatherNLace
Call it what you will....in this day and age, the unmitigated ability to transfer ownership of an instrument of death from one private citizen to another has run it's course. It is past time that such transfers of ownership follow standard federal guidelines.

When it has been tried, it hasn't worked. If someone intends to commit a crime with a gun, or they are unable to legally buy a gun, do you honestly think that they'll buy from someone who intends to do a background check?

It is just a drop in the bucket, but every little bit counts.

Except it doesn't count when the drops aren't having an effect on violent crime.

I'm a gun owner (several times over) and those who stomp their foot at any and all regulation give the rest of us a bad rap

If you are a gun owner who think that there should be universal background checks and federal databases of gun owners, YOU are in the minority.

you guys/gals also belong on a federal database....if for no other reason, because of your fanatical, obsessive gun rights fetish. That ish is borderline psychotic.

That line is truly unfortunate. I suppose you feel that First Amendment supporters should also be on a federal database. What you fail to understand is that some of us are against regulations that accomplish nothing. There are laws that are designed to give more control to the government while doing nothing to deter crime. If the existing laws aren't working, why would any rational person support the passage of additional laws?

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

Firstly, its a nice little opinion piece you wrote.

This should be good...

But obviously a large amount of your opinions aren't actually supported by the cold hard facts.

Wrong. Please point out anything I said in my OP that was "opinion" and not factually supported.

1. The US has the most unrestricted gun laws in the developed world, which results in the most gun crime in the developed world

Our crime problems have nothing to do with the availability of guns. Several other countries have similar gun laws but don't have the violent crime problems we have. Due to your country's propaganda, you focus on "gun crime" while ignoring the violent crime rates in the rest of the "developed world." If you want to have an honest discussion about crime, we should compare the total crime rate instead of focusing on the tool used in those crimes.

2. The US is the only developed country that regularly has mass shootings

Mass killings happen around the world. Just because guns are used here, doesn't make the victims any less dead. I know your country feeds you loads of "gun crime" propaganda but it's a classic misdirection and is intended to keep you dead-set against guns... it's clearly working.

ETA: Tunisia has the lowest gun ownership rate in the world yet 38 people were killed a few weeks ago. There is no special formula to ensure mass shootings won't happen.

3. Although most mass shootings that occur in the US don't involve a semi-auto assault rifle and high capacity magazines, the most devastating mass shootings commonly do.

There's actually a bit of variety. The VA Tech shooting remains the worst and he used handguns.

4. State borders are no obstacle to organized criminal gangs who trade in illegal guns

Your point is what, exactly? Even if guns were illegal nationwide, the criminals would still have them. That's common sense.

5. There are many loopholes in US gun regulations that allow criminals to freely purchase firearms, well going undetected by authorities.

Criminals, by their nature, do not abide by the law. There is no law that would keep criminals from obtaining firearms.

6. Organized criminal gangs are fully aware of these loopholes and never hesitate to take full advantage of them.

If by "loopholes" you mean "guns exist in the US", then yes. Again, there is no law that would keep criminals from obtaining firearms. In countries where firearm ownership is heavily regulated and nearly banned outright, the only people with guns are "organized criminal gangs."

All gun rights advocates a probably fully aware of these established facts, but they rarely say them out loud and usually get very offended when someone brings attention to them.

Not offended at all. I just don't appreciate someone who thinks I shouldn't own a gun because criminals can get access to guns. The only people who are disarmed by strict gun laws are law-abiding citizens.

Just thought this thread needed some balancing out, is all.

Well, you tried... You're a good example of the people who live outside the US that have been fed way too much propaganda. You folks are more worried about "gun violence" in America than we are because you're convinced that it's a huge problem.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Five out of the six things you list all have one common theme: they are criminal acts. They are all already illegal.

Why not just save everybody's time and say you want all the guns, ever, to disappear?