Why is the Sun Setting North of Due West? - I Am Above The Tropic of Cancer

I started drawing attention to this back in 06, had to let it go because people are just plain ignorant of earth changes and refuse to settle for anything but the normalcy patterns even if that requires believing what they are told rather than trusting their own intuition and observation.

shifting of the earths axis.

This is affecting nature as it always has, humanity is new to the scene and in for a wild ride, I suggest taking the mindfreck of it and simply becoming more in tune with nature and earth changes and accepting the normalcy of change.

Set out stakes if you plan to stay where you are and document the 365 stations as well as any possible changes from the patterns of stars at night from that location. Ancients used sundials and the likes to do this so it is not something out of the ordinary to do.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: cooperton
Can you give me an alternate explanation then? You know the sun should never go north of its northern limitor: the Tropic of Cancer.

Sure.

1) you incorrectly determined the sun's location
2) you are wrong about where the limit is
3) you are measuring at a time other than noon local

I'm going with 3.

1) see #3, I'm not referring to noon
2) No, the limit is the tropic of cancer
3) I did not say at noon, at noon it is where it "should" be: South of me. I am referring to the sunset. Where the sun meets the horizon at sunset, for me, it is about 15 degrees north of due west, which should not happen because I am north of the tropic of Cancer.

originally posted by: antar
I started drawing attention to this back in 06, had to let it go because people are just plain ignorant of earth changes and refuse to settle for anything but the normalcy patterns even if that requires believing what they are told rather than trusting their own intuition and observation.

I don't think most of the people posting even understand why this is strange... This guy is raising the same question:

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: cooperton

I'm afraid you are confused as to what the Tropic of Cancer is:

The Tropic of Cancer, also referred to as the Northern Tropic, is the most northerly circle of latitude on the Earth at which the Sun may appear directly overhead at its culmination. This event occurs once per year, at the time of the Northern solstice, when the Northern Hemisphere is tilted toward the Sun to its maximum extent. As of 22 July 2015, it lies at 23°26′14.2″ north of the Equator.

Source

It's a line in which the sun will not move further north at noon or it's highest point during the day.

The sun can and will set north of due west at 40 deg Lat just fine.

For example, the sun will set today as observed in Paris, France (48 N Lat) WNW (west of North west) at 9:40 pm local time.

Source



This is how it has been observed for a very, very long time. All sorts of people keep track of where the sun rises and sets, and if it were starting to rise and set in the wrong place, there are literally hundreds of millions of people that would notice this.

You do not have to take our word for it. Do some research and locate very old almanacs that list the times and positions of the sun rising and setting, and old astronomy or weather data that shows what time the sun rose and set and where it did (what was observed). You'll find that the data matches.

Cooperton, I'm afraid you are making a fundamental mistake which is confusing the position of sunrise with the declination of the tropics.

The declination of the sun varies over the course of the year from 23.5 degrees North to 23.5 degrees south. Declination is the celestial equivalent of latitude. It is the point over the earth at which a celestial body would be observed at the zenith (ie directly above you). Due to the fixed nature of the sun we can also think about this as being the tilt of the earth. This is however only valid at local noon for the sun. Where it moves in the sky prior and after that is a different matter.

The main issue is that of horizon. Your horizon is based upon your position on the earth and is entirely subject to that position.

If you want a simple explanation, stand up, extend your arms out sideways. Imagine your head is the north pole, your feet the south Pole, your right arm is East and your left arm is West. Line your right arm up with a recognisable object on the horizon.

That object represents the sunrise on the equator when the declination (angle of the earth) is 0. Sunrise is due East.

Turn your body 23.5 degrees clockwise. You are now representing the earth at full tilt (sun at the summer solstice). Increasing your height (moving further north) won't change the sun's position to being south of your arm.

The amplitude (angle north or south of east/west) at sunrise is actually one of the simplest calculations in celestial navigation because you take the altitude of the sun out of the equation (as it has an effective altitude of zero).

The calculation is: Sin Amplitude = Sin Declination / Cos Latitude

Sin 23.5 is - 0.13
Cos 40 is - 0.66
Therefore sin amp = 0.09
Therefore amplitude is 5 degrees. (nb I'm doing this on my phone so rounding heavily).

As declination is north and the calculation is positive, so is the amplitude. I would expect you to see the sun rise at 085 degrees true and set at 275 degrees true at solstice with your approximate latitude.

Source; A decade as a navigation and executive officer in the merchant marine. Half a decade (so far) as a lecturer in Nautical Science.

Re reading the thread this caught my attention:


"Your picture is inaccurate, the tropic lines should be curved, and should not be using a picture that uses Eucidean geometry."

Your entire understanding of the basic fundamentals is completely wrong. The tropics are a parallel of latitude. There is NO curve to represent. You are confusing them with a meridian of longitude which does indeed curve. A parallel is simply parallel to the equator, it is known as a 'small circle'. Latitude being simply the angle subjected between the equator, the centre of the earth and any point on its surface.

Longitude is meridians, which are great circles. They are the angle between any point on the Greenwich meridian and the meridian of the object at the same latitude these are all 'great circles'.

Trying to grasp apparent celestial motion without the building blocks in place is rather futile.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: cooperton

I'm afraid you are confused as to what the Tropic of Cancer is:

The Tropic of Cancer, also referred to as the Northern Tropic, is the most northerly circle of latitude on the Earth at which the Sun may appear directly overhead at its culmination. This event occurs once per year, at the time of the Northern solstice, when the Northern Hemisphere is tilted toward the Sun to its maximum extent. As of 22 July 2015, it lies at 23°26′14.2″ north of the Equator.

Source

It's a line in which the sun will not move further north at noon or it's highest point during the day.

The sun can and will set north of due west at 40 deg Lat just fine.

For example, the sun will set today as observed in Paris, France (48 N Lat) WNW (west of North west) at 9:40 pm local time.

Source

But this is what does not make sense according to our astronomical model. If the sun never is directly overhead a point north of the tropic of cancer, how can it ever appear to be north of a latitude above that location? The 40th latitude, for example, is an East-West line at 40 degrees above the equator. So, if the sun never goes north of the 23rd latitude, why I am seeing the sun NORTH of my 40th line of East-West latitude at sunset?

THIS is the phenomenon I am inquiring about. The sun sets west of northwest in Paris, but why?

originally posted by: cheesyleps
Re reading the thread this caught my attention:


The tropics are a parallel of latitude. There is NO curve to represent.

No. In spherical geometry parallel lines do not exist.

I would expect you to see the sun rise at 085 degrees true and set at 275 degrees true at solstice with your approximate latitude.

I got approximately 285 degrees Last evening. How/why is the sun north of the east-west line though? If the sun is south of me at noon at the 40th latitude, it should be south of me at sunrise, that's how spherical geometry would have it with a spinning sphere angled at only 23 degrees.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: cooperton

I'm afraid you are confused as to what the Tropic of Cancer is:

The Tropic of Cancer, also referred to as the Northern Tropic, is the most northerly circle of latitude on the Earth at which the Sun may appear directly overhead at its culmination. This event occurs once per year, at the time of the Northern solstice, when the Northern Hemisphere is tilted toward the Sun to its maximum extent. As of 22 July 2015, it lies at 23°26′14.2″ north of the Equator.

Source

It's a line in which the sun will not move further north at noon or it's highest point during the day.

The sun can and will set north of due west at 40 deg Lat just fine.

For example, the sun will set today as observed in Paris, France (48 N Lat) WNW (west of North west) at 9:40 pm local time.

Source

Yes, but this is what does not make sense according to our astronomical model. If the sun never is directly overhead a point north of the tropic of cancer, how can it ever appear to be north of a latitude above that location? The 40th latitude, for example, is an East-West line at 40 degrees above the equator. So, if the sun never goes north of the 23rd latitude, why I am seeing the sun NORTH of my 40th line of East-West latitude at sunset?

THIS is the phenomenon I am inquiring about. The sun sets west of northwest in Paris, but why?

originally posted by: cheesyleps
Re reading the thread this caught my attention:


The tropics are a parallel of latitude. There is NO curve to represent.

In spherical geometry parallel lines do not exist.

I would expect you to see the sun rise at 085 degrees true and set at 275 degrees true at solstice with your approximate latitude.

I got approximately 285 degrees Last evening. How/why is the sun north of the east-west line though? If the sun is south of me at noon at the 40th latitude, it should be south of me at sunrise, that's how spherical geometry would have it with a spinning sphere angled at only 23 degrees.

Because I screwed up the calculation by trying to do it on a non scientific calculator. Sin 23.5 / cos 40 actually gives 0.2727, which when reversing sine is 15 degrees plus change making sunrise 075 and sunset 285. Please check this yourself.

Today's solar declination is approximately 20 degrees. Feel free to re-run the calculation yourself if you have a scientific calculator. Sorry for the error.

a reply to: cooperton

Uh, you could ask a science teacher. Although I believe the many people who posted on here gave you the simple, correct explanation.

It's summer in the northern hemisphere. Yeah, the sun will rise/set north of east/west. It's very simple.

a reply to: cooperton

Did you take a look at the image I posted?

It does what you are asking about because of the Earth's fixed 23 degree tilt as it rotates around the sun.

a reply to: cooperton

Correct me if I am wrong

Gladly:

but from the north pole when the sun does not set in the summer, it would appear in the south....

From the north pole every single direction is by definition south. But from anywhere near the north pole (even 2 feet away) it would appear in the north. At night time you are facing away from the Sun, looking out into space. The reason you can still see the Sun in the high Arctic is because the north pole is tilted towards it. So at midnight, you could still peek "over" the north pole to see it. As such you are facing due north.

There are dozens of resources out there that demonstrate the geometry here. Just google "solar chart". This is a very good interactive one: Sun Position Calculator

Here's where the Sun was at midnight in the high Arctic today:




Here's where it will set at your latitude tonight:




Try adjusting the latitude from one to the other to get a better feel for what's going on.


The reason it appears north at sunset is because you are not looking for the sun directly above you anymore. You are looking along the horizon, which changes your perspective relative to the cardinal directions. In this case due west is pointed "down" relative to the plane of the Earth's orbit, so the Sun appears above it, or in other words - north.

It would probably make more sense if you stopped trying so hard to rationalize away everyone's explanation here, and tried to just understand better how your own perspective changes from perpendicular to the Earth's surface at mid-day versus parallel to it at sunrise/sunset. Your rule about the Tropic of Cancer only applies to the former, but you keep trying to project it onto the latter.

originally posted by: ketsuko
No doubt it's because of Global Warming and thus your fault.

Or this is just like all the global warming threads - those who don't get the science act out against those who do, and blame everyone but themselves for their own lack of understanding.

originally posted by: Nyiah
I'm roughly the same latitude as you, and being FROM the tropics, it ain't weird. It's called precession of the sun, as well as summer.
My mother is from this exact area, she's extremely familiar with the sunrise & sunset locations throughout the year. I'm fairly sure if the sun in her stomping ground of over 6 decades was any different, she'd say so, considering she was a farmer.

WTH is so wrong with America today that people either forget or don't understand basic science?

Actually the OP was asking if they missed the science behind it. Instead of painting yourself into corners with blanket statements about Americans why not just give the scientific reasons behind. I am also wondering WTH is wrong with people today but in a different context.

At the north pole, in summer, the sun never sets, ever heard the phrase " land of the midnight sun"?
Come on PHAGE, do your thing.

originally posted by: Chadwickus
a reply to: khnum

What the Inuit saw was ice melt.

They were interviewed for a global warming documentary btw.

Ice melt couldn't possibly account for all the changes they noticed.

a reply to: Sunwolf

If so you are not the only one,I have had to plant trees 12 ft further north to screen the evening sun where I sit on my patio.The sun is setting further and further north in the past 15 years.I am at 36 degrees.

I hear a lot of similar reports and I myself have the sun now shining into a window just before sunset for the last couple of years.

It never did before that. Indeed further north.


Seems like reports like these are being ignored by the skeptics who say it is all due to a lack of scientific knowledge.

I don't see what known process could have caused these kind of shifts.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: cooperton

Did you take a look at the image I posted?

It does what you are asking about because of the Earth's fixed 23 degree tilt as it rotates around the sun.

Yes, but that diagram you showed uses a flat earth to demonstrate that. Is this what you are saying?

a reply to: Nyiah

"...WTH is so wrong with America today that people either forget or don't understand basic science?..."




back in my youth (the 1950s-60s) there was a marked decline in geography/ solar related science....
almost every classroom or at least the library had a globe with that metal bar which gave us all sorts of info, if one were to read it.
but globes went the way of slide rules, the engineer's computer-of-sorts

our orbit position has the northern hemisphere tilted to get the full force of sunlight energy but the south hemisphere experiences winter because of that tilt

June 21st or thereabouts was when the Earth's tilt along with It's position in Her yearly orbit makes a west north west apparent sunset---and the Dec 21st sunset is in the west-south-west, according to dead reckoning logic


the good-old-days, where Nerds were first discovered as a subculture who never flaunted their smartness, but thought it rather Neolithic to be unaware of the world around tehm

On the equator the Sun rises due east every day and sets due west

North of the equator, the Sun rises due east and sets due west at the equinoxes only. During the summer it rises north of east - reaching its most northward rising position at the summer solstice - and sets north of west. In the winter it rises south of east and sets south of west - reaching its most southward rising position at the winter solstice.

This happens every year.

Why some people fail to understand/notice this beats me.

See also: solar-center.stanford.edu...

a reply to: cooperton

as you insist on shoehorning the flat earth claim in - why dont you use the same diagram to SIMULTANEOUSLY demonstrate how a flat earth claim allows the observations in the southern hemisphere to be the oposite of what is shown there

come on - this is a golden opportunity for " flat earth science "

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: cooperton

as you insist on shoehorning the flat earth claim in - why dont you use the same diagram to SIMULTANEOUSLY demonstrate how a flat earth claim allows the observations in the southern hemisphere to be the oposite of what is shown there

come on - this is a golden opportunity for " flat earth science "

Hey hey hey, slow down . One issue at a time. If you can find me a diagram of the celestial objects as spheres, with proper proportions, that makes sense of a northwest sunset for an observer above the tropic of cancer I will concede. Forever