Freddie Gray was just a thug?

Greetings ATS,

I have seen overwhelmingly not only here on ATS but on other formats as well the opinion that Freddie Gray was just a thug, career criminal and that his actions brought about his death. I can say without doubt that I sympathize with those sentiments because Freddie Gray was not a person I would associate with under any circumstances, not a person I would want around my children and not even what I would describe as a productive member of society.

With that said, Freddie Gray was at least one thing that is indisputable........ An American citizen. Freddie Gray was hunted down and cornered like an animal because he made suspicious eye contact with police, something that IS NOT a crime. It has been openly admitted that not only was he denied medical treatment on site when asked for, they couldn't even be bothered to strap him in as policy mandates KNOWING that he is in distress and injured. So many rights were violated that day, it is very hard to pick the most egregious.

Freddie Gray is not a likable person and neither are the rioters that are looting, destroying and perpetrating violence in Baltimore right now. Dislike the acts, the mentality and the people directly involved all you want because you are justified in despising it but what I beg you not to do is overlook how an American citizens rights were violated in broad daylight without probable cause that resulted in their death.

This is only about black and white because they want it to be. If they get away with this, it could be any of us, in the suburbs, anywhere. It's not about black or white. It's about justice, about a militarized police force that every day does more harm than good. It's about liberty.

I'm asking that you separate the unlawful, disgusting acts in Baltimore going on right now with the incident that brought them to bear. I know it's not easy and I know the complications with doing so but only when you understand that all citizens of this country deserve the same respect because the Constitution does not grant special privileges for skin color or even for repeat offenders of law as long as any past transgressions have been answered for will you fully understand why this was so unjust.

America, what happened was wrong.

No. I will not see it your way.

And you know I love you like a brother.

He was a criminal. He was always gonna be a criminal. And, his anti-social behavior caused me to have utterly zero sympathy for him.

Do I believe he should have been 'disposed of' by the State. No ... not in that manner. They could have put his sorry ass in a rowboat and towed him two hundred miles off-shore. I'd have been good with that.

originally posted by: Snarl
No. I will not see it your way.

And you know I love you like a brother.

He was a criminal. He was always gonna be a criminal. And, his anti-social behavior caused me to have utterly zero sympathy for him.

Do I believe he should have been 'disposed of' by the State. No ... not in that manner. They could have put his sorry ass in a rowboat and towed him two hundred miles off-shore. I'd have been good with that.

I sympathize with your view, believe me I do. I am looking past my personal opinions on this matter because the ramifications of this situation are far more important than what I think. We, if we want to continue to function as a nation of laws and enjoy liberty must come to understand that we don't have the privilege to chalk up felony government malfeasance perpetrated by the state as acceptable because we despise the individual.

Who Freddy Gray was is not the issue and yet it's the entire issue because while he was seemingly a despicable person he never ceased to be a citizen of the Unites States of America and as such, by law, had guaranteed rights that can NOT be taken away arbitrarily.

But, I wonder how many other American citizens rights that Freddy compromised by his actions over the years?

You can't let criminals get away with crime or they might be infringing on your rights the next time.

I do not know much about this man but I am guessing he was in trouble before from what you are saying and that his history of crime is what you refer to in the OP. Still I do not think he should have died for what he had done. But when you live that sort of life, you have to expect the consequences of being shoved around while being arrested.

It's like if you drink alcohol, you should expect to get drunk if you drink enough.

If I did what he did, I would expect I would have the right to get arrested the same way he did. We lose our right to freedom if we steal or harm others.

originally posted by: Helious

Who Freddy Gray was is not the issue and yet it's the entire issue because while he was seemingly a despicable person he never ceased to be a citizen of the Unites States of America and as such, by law, had guaranteed rights that can NOT be taken away arbitrarily.

You are right.

That said ... I still refuse to accept it. This guy was incorrigible. He's the lead pawn in the game of TPTB. All the damn rules put directly in the way of dealing with the problem at hand ... when anyone with a lick of common sense can tell you 'what needs to be done'.

a reply to: Helious

You know, when I disagree with you, I really really disagree with you. This time I agree with you.

But either way, you have this wonderful habit of bringing a species of pragmatism that's sorely missed in contemporary discussions. I appreciate that even when I disagree.

originally posted by: rickymouse
But, I wonder how many other American citizens rights that Freddy compromised by his actions over the years?

You can't let criminals get away with crime or they might be infringing on your rights the next time.

I do not know much about this man but I am guessing he was in trouble before from what you are saying and that his history of crime is what you refer to in the OP. Still I do not think he should have died for what he had done. But when you live that sort of life, you have to expect the consequences of being shoved around while being arrested.

It's like if you drink alcohol, you should expect to get drunk if you drink enough.

So then, two wrongs make a right? If he violated others rights, that is a separate issue, is it not? Can we justify his individual rights being violated by the state with the hypothetical argument that at some time he probably violated others rights?

It's a slippery slope. I know that the good in you inherently despises the person he was, it's normal, I do as well. I'm not arguing his integrity, I'm arguing our right to judge him because we have no right.

originally posted by: Helious

I think you're exactly right and dead on target here. I think Snarl and Mouse are justified in how they feel and ask valid questions and make valid statement but they seem to be missing you're point which goes beyond this one man and what he's done or might deserve.

What you're saying is way more important as it's looking past what's right here in front of us at the larger picture and it's a picture that involves much more than this one event or this one man or this one city of riots.

You're asking much more important questions and maybe that is why others are choosing to avoid them and instead look only at the easy picture before their eyes.

Should it be allowed for Police to break laws and violate citizens rights in their pursuit to catch criminals??? Does this not make them criminals as well???

In the movies we celebrate the rouge cop or vigilante who's out for justice and applaud the rampage of destruction for those 2 hours of entertainment but reality isn't a movie and doesn't accurately depict our real lives.

We see and question the brutal actions of police here every day and wonder how and why they've lost control, no longer protect but attack and no longer represent justice but instead represent tyranny. We can't figure out why LEO's murder with impunity and almost never face punishment for their actions against us. Well, perhaps it's because we applaud the injustices they do when it's someone we don't care for never realizing that we could be the next guy that others will applaud who don't care for us much either.

After all, what makes this man so bad that he should be beaten and killed without trial or without a right to defend himself?? "Because he sold drugs" you might say, "and drugs harm people and society." Fine, but don't cigarettes do that also?? Or toxic chemicals being dumped in our water and food??? But I've never seen anyone doing those things beaten or killed by the cops.

The question is "Do we care about Real Justice???" If so "Are we strong enough and do we care enough to do what is right in the pursuit of Real Justice for Everyone, even when sometimes we personally would like or let slide a little InJustice instead???"

a reply to: Helious

So you are saying it is an infringement on a criminal's rights if you arrest them and put them in jail. This is why laws are created. What are the cops supposed to do to the criminals, stand there and yell at them?

Society sets the standards of what is right and what is wrong. Everyone breaking the laws is supposed to suffer the same consequences. I had a friend of mine get questioned by the cops and he mouthed off and they slammed his head into the hood of the cop car and hauled him to jail. We went to the jail the next day to bail him out, he had already been released without being charged because he got sobered up and got rational. He knew better than to mouth off to the cops anymore and it didn't cost him a cent. Everyone has the same rights, but now they don't let you go after you sober up without giving you a fine anymore. Gee, a sore head was a little better than five hundred bucks in fines and a record. I think they should go back to the old way.

a reply to: rickymouse

So you are saying it is an infringement on a criminal's rights if you arrest them and put them in jail. This is why laws are created. What are the cops supposed to do to the criminals, stand there and yell at them?

You are ahead of yourself my friend. You see, Freddie Grey did not break any laws the day he was killed. Had he violated laws before that day, it is of separate issue. It would be like getting a random speeding ticket on a random day because at one point you had probably been speeding.

The issue is not if Freddie Grey was a good person, we know he was not, at least on the surface of his deeds. The issue is not if he had never broken the law, he obviously did at certain points of his life. The issue is if those missteps are justification for his death directly resulting from unlawful police activity and negligence and if we say that they are, what kind of people and nation does that make us?

originally posted by: rickymouse
I had a friend of mine get questioned by the cops and he mouthed off and they slammed his head into the hood of the cop car and hauled him to jail. We went to the jail the next day to bail him out, he had already been released without being charged because he got sobered up and got rational. He knew better than to mouth off to the cops anymore and it didn't cost him a cent.

This is a great example actually of how easy it is for things to get out of control. What if your friend had a previous head injury or a brain injury the cops weren't aware of on that night??? What if right now you heard on the news about your friend who while drunk and disorderly with the police got head slammed and arrested and died as a result???

Would you be saying he got proper justice??? He was drunk and mouthing off to cops, right??? They didn't know he would die, right??? So what's the problem. Just one more drunk thug that got what he deserved right??

a reply to: Helious

Did he run from the police when they approached him? Was there a crime committed in the area and he acted guilty so they went after him? I do not have all the facts. If you are asked to come in for questioning and you leave, then they can arrest you. So what actually set all of this in motion. I doubt if the cops would be shoving him on the ground and handcuffing him if there was no crime committed or there was no reason to believe he did something wrong.

You should treat cops with respect and they usually don't mess with you. Except of course if you get get caught driving either fifty MPH in a 25 mph zone backwards or driving one hundred ten in a fifty five mile an hour zone. or are drunk and driving twenty five miles per hour in a fifty five mile speed zone.

But even then if you talk civil to them they treat you fairly.

a reply to: Cuervo

You know, when I disagree with you, I really really disagree with you. This time I agree with you.

Took the words right out of my face hole.

Someone being a dirtbag doesn't excuse them being treated terribly or killed (most of the time).

I don't think any of us know enough to actually have a valid opinion of what happened, but prematurely excusing what very well could have been a painful death due to brutality, neglect or what have you is disgusting. This could very well have been someone innocent, and even if he wasn't we should strive to be better than that. I always cringe when I see people gleefully imagining a rapist getting raped or stabbed.

For the record, I'm thinking this mans death most likely came about from a number of contributing factors.

I think most of this issue to me is beside the point. If the cops were culpable they should be charged or dismissed from their positions.

But what I think here, is that those who believe those cops were in the wrong (which I do admit it appears that way) it is ONLY those cops. NOT every cop.

It is not us verses them.

I have been at the bus stop at 4:30 in the morning - necessity waiting for the first bus - and every drunk, stoned, high ## wants to pick me up as a prostitute, when I am not.. you are scared at that time of day, that someone might just stop and kidnap you, because they are crazy, or drunk, or high, or whatever..

Times when you are glad to see a cop.. happy that a cop would stop and wait to make sure you are safe until the bus comes..

This incident and those like it is not every cop... this is a couple cops.. everyone has to admit there is a reason we have cops, and many of them are great, do their job to the best of their ability, and treat everyone with tons of respect.

We don't want to have to live worried about those crazies who don't care who they hurt. This is what cops are for.. blame bad ones for their actions.. but not every single cop is responsible for them either.

a reply to: mOjOm

If you play in the fire, your likely to get burned. If you treat the cops right and don't mouth off, they are usually pretty good about things. Now, if there is someone who robbed a gas station who drove a car away just like the one your driving and they pull you over, the guns come out and you get slammed against the hood. I had that happen to a friend of mine. He was mistaken as the robber because of his car. He is a volunteer fireman and also the local cops were always visiting him at his shop. So he gut roughed up, they figured it out in five minutes but he said a gun stuck in your face is pretty scarey.

In a case like that above, I wouldn't hold it against the cops for doing that to me....as long as they appologized and told me why they did it.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I think if the root of the problem was actually addressed the grouping of "all cops are bad" would go away and here is why.

When you know for a fact that some cops, even if it's just a minority of them, get away with doing the horrible things they do, like shooting unarmed people in the back, extortion, beating of prisoners, etc. etc. When this things happen and they are let off, no matter if you know it's only some of them or not, you know full well that Justice is a Lie. You don't know if the cop you next meet is good or bad, you already know Justice often has more to do with money and status or skin color than what really happened and once again Real Justice is a myth.

Once you know that, you can't help but see them as a possible enemy. Sure, maybe not today or the next day but it's possible at any moment to be the victim of LEO's taking advantage of the system where you are the victim and have no way out.

Just imagine all the men who've served decades only to be exonerated because the DA or Judge or LEO simply didn't care about real Justice. Imagine the lives ruined, families destroyed, pain inflicted upon completely innocent people in the name of Injustice. Enforcement of the law and Justice isn't something that should ever be taken lightly or allowed to just slide by. It is THE embodiment of our system of Right vs. Wrong. That isn't an area that you can allow a mixing or confusion between the two sides. If you do, you have nothing. Maybe even something worse than nothing. You might have something that is just Wrong and that's it.

a reply to: rickymouse

Ok, but that is a different story and example than the one you gave before. The questions I asked were very specific to that story and this new one doesn't apply the same.

You seem to be avoiding the question because of the answer you know you should give.

That is at the heart of what I think this topic is about. You should ask yourself why do you not want to answer that exact question and how is not facing that answer truly effecting the world around you being that there are probably millions of people who also won't answer it either???

This isn't about judging someone's character or if someone might of deserved some rough treatment. It's about how and why we even have a Justice System. Because if we can't ask ourselves the hard questions or take the time to come to some real answers then we don't have a Justice System at all. What we have is just a bunch of BS that if you're lucky or a good obedient drone you might be lucky enough to have it skip over you unnoticed. That isn't justice, it's not freedom and it is certainly not the system that was intended.

What's wrong here is what's ALWAYS wrong with these cases, and they're not a few they're many.

So they guy wasn't a saint, accepted, and what the cops did wasn't right either. We know that the law has a talent for letting poeple like him go free time after time, which much be really frustarting for the police to see a scumbag walk free when you know he deserves to go jail.

But that's why we have laws, and thats why cops have to rise above it all and uphold the law.

However, what really f+çk's me off is, as soon as these incidents happen the headline reads -

"BLACKMAN dies in custody after heart attack, LAPD says he swallowed his drugs"

"BLACKMAN shot to death while raiding a store at gunpoint"

"BLACK YOUTH dies after being shot by police when carjacking goes wrong"

From this point on it's all about race, nobody gives a fu+ç about the fact he's a career criminal or died while commiting a crime, he's just a poor oppresed brother, a minority, another victim of the system that failed him and the abuse of the cops.

When you take the word BLACK out of the headlines, you take away their reason to riot.

"Man dies in custody after heart attack, LAPD says he swallowed his drugs"

"Man shot to death while raiding store at gunpoint"

"Youth dies after being shot by police when carjacking goes wrong"

It's all about the man, not the colour of his skin. He's black, so what. It's more important he was a criminal, and what happened to him is even more important, but that these hood rats riot for the sake of his skin colour is just a crock.

So the story gets better...

It seems he had a previous spinal injury that he was awarded money from, another person in the wagon is saying that he was throwing himself against a steel beam, this is rather interesting in it seems he had won a settlement in the past and maybe was looking for another.

It would be rather ironic if this whole story ended up being a case where a guy tried to injure himself and ended up killing himself....

a reply to: Helious

Exactly! You dont just break your back walking down the road (even with recent surgery) . Freddy has definitely made some mistakes but his death was because of gross negligence by the police plain and simple. He did not deserve to die. People grow up nnd change.. He will never get the chance now.