Re-incarnation: A Blessing or a Curse?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: schuyler

If in matters of death the cessation of bodily functions and its decomposition is irrelevant, then my sir, you have nothing else to speak about in these matters. Your facts are not even superficial, let alone deep. It becomes obvious you are fixated on the stories of living people, of what occurs during life spoken by the living, and not what occurs after death. In other words, irrelevant.

There's one huge thing you and a couple of other people here completely fail to realize. This thread is about what? It's about whether reincarnation is a blessing or a curse. It's NOT ABOUT whether reincarnation is true or not. Your continued insistence that it is not true is completely off-topic. That's not what we are discussing here.

There is really no need to discuss your issues any further. If you want to discuss whether or not reincarnation is true, start a thread on it.

a reply to: schuyler

How can something be a blessing or curse if it doesn't even occur? A failure to realize indeed.

Perhaps it's because there might be some of us who are past the point of denial and are simply asking other questions.

I love living.
It sucks to read that so many do not and never want to return to this strange and beautiful planet.

I believe in reincarnation due to some of my own experiences with it,
and to answer the question, to me, it is a blessing.

originally posted by: Darkblade71
I love living. It sucks to read that so many do not and never want to return to this strange and beautiful planet.

I used to think the same, but I've come to the conclusion, somewhat reluctantly, that our attitudes while here will not be the same attitudes we have when more is revealed to us. In other words, what we THINK amounts to ourselves, our Ego, is likely less important than we would like to believe. It's just that our perspective is narrow while we are here. In fact, it is so narrow for some that they cannot conceive of anything but the world they live in. I feel pity and sorrow for them because they have chosen such a limited life.

That's why I like the video game analogy. (If you've never been a gamer, this won't mean much.) We design our avatars, usually to look as much like us as we can, at least for the first toon, then send them out into "the world" (Which may be Alderaan or Tatooine instead of Earth) to achieve certain objectives and thereby advance "to the next level." We give them characteristics (being a Mage or a Warrior), have them engage in fake battles and false romances, and we don't care much what the Avatar THINKS about his predicaments because we don't believe the avatar has any kind of consciousness at all. And though some players can get obnoxiously serious about the whole thing, it's just entertainment.

And if you think about it, we are compelled to do this, to make models. Whether it is a HO gauge model railroad setup, a doll house, or model airplanes. It gives many people pleasure to model a world. We make films with actors fulfilling fantasies in deep space or the deep past. We write fiction and explore alternatives realities, histories that did not happen, and characters that are figments of the mind. And we indulge ourselves by reading the books and watching the films. You can easily make a case that this is a major human activity, and it is obvious that our ability to create these worlds is getting better and better and better.

This year the Oculus Rift will hit the shelves. It's an immersive mask that you put on to enter one of these made-up worlds and it will revolutionize the gaming industry. Haptic controls help you immerse yourself. We're getting close to "The Holodeck" of Star Trek fame, and there's no reason to doubt--at all--that we will get better and better at this as technology increases. Read "Ready Player One to get an idea of what is to come.

This is moving fast. Ray Kurzweil has popularized the notion of "The Singularity," actually coined by Vernor Vinge, a physicist, that postulates the rate of change is approaching a speed so that we cannot possibly know what is next. The idea is that computing power will drive advances in nano technology, medicine, robotics, and similar fields to the point that it is unrecognizable.

And if that happens, is there any reason to suppose it has not happened before? And might not we be the results of it? No, there is no "proof" at all, and those who insist on "proof" will be staring down a microscope for a long time as life moves on by. But if you take this view, there's no reason to be angry or sad because all this is temporary, and you will get your turn at the controls soon enough.

a reply to: schuyler

It is amazing that we are making our own dimensions
(internet, virtual and augmented reality)

I'll probably be doing the Hololens while others are doing Oculus.


The point is though, to enjoy life as much as one can. people get caught up in "karma" and rules,
when it is really simple, there are no rules other than what you set down yourself,
and in a game analogy, this is a very open ended place to be.

If a person is not enjoying the game, then they need to change direction and go another way, it is as simple as that, even if they don't think it is, everything ,as you said, is temporary. And that is a good thing, because that means we can change any time we want to. Changing perception changes reality, maybe not in the grand way people think when they hear it said, but it is true.

Anyways, on the subject of reincarnation, if it is to be, I look forward to my next lifetime, perhaps we will have progressed farther as a species by then, or maybe I'll end up in some Armageddon world...(which still sounds fun in a twisted kind of way)...

Last time I was killed by a dog, this time, who knows, next time, can't wait...
I am thoroughly enjoying the experience,even if it is not real to some.

a reply to: N3k9Ni

Mine has been both Blessing and Curse. I won't bore you with long drawn out details of part incarnations, but the Blessings and the Bane must be kept in proper balance during my current lifetime as I work out my personal Samsara. The hardest part is the chaos and confusion it creates for those around me as I struggle to navigate more lifetimes than I can account for. Both here in the Human Realm, and my Origin. It is painful holding such depths of sadness, and trying my best to help others escape their own, because so many humans have such petty and selfish concerns they feel trump all others. I hope to Transcend the Cycle of Rebirth - or, at the very least - be born into a World that does not have the problems that this one faces when it comes to the Jealous Gods. I know this is born of my own Ego seeking detachment from Suffering, and I struggle to overcome it. It has been a long while since I have been bathed in the beautiful golden light on Oneness and Pure Being. I have learned I cannot lead others to the Light, I can only avoid those that would pull me further into their own Eternal Damned-able Darkness.

Indeed - a beautiful and razor sharp double edged sword.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
If you've ever read any materialist philosophy, you'd find a love of nature, a love of the material, whereas in all of your spiritual doctrines there is only contempt for it. It is no wonder one can pollute his environment when his mind and his own satisfaction comes before it, which is the ultimate teaching of the philosophies I see you promote.

originally posted by: bb23108
Okay, please back up your words with some facts here, LesMis. Where have I ever said anything about a contempt for nature or the material world? I have never condoned anything like that! I always speak about being in right relationship to our environment and others!
And I thought you understood that post of mine in my signature, and other such posts about right living, relative to whole bodily participation in life. Apparently not.

So, LesMis, enough time has elapsed since I wrote you the above response to your accusations. When are you going to back up your accusations you directed at me, relative to my contempt for nature and the material world, with quotes from what I have actually written? Here is the summary of your accusations from the above post:

"whereas in all of your spiritual doctrines there is only contempt for it. It is no wonder one can pollute his environment when his mind and his own satisfaction comes before it, which is the ultimate teaching of the philosophies I see you promote."

If you are going to personally accuse me of this, you had better be able to back it up with quotes from what I have written, or at least be manly enough to apologize.

a reply to: bb23108

Okay, please back up your words with some facts here, LesMis. Where have I ever said anything about a contempt for nature or the material world? I have never condoned anything like that! I always speak about being in right relationship to our environment and others!

My statement was in response to your previous assertion:

In fact, this belief in materialism has basically the force of a world religion at this point, and tends to promote only a body-based, consumer-oriented life-style in which there is no tomorrow, or at least nothing after death, so get it now before its too late! This approach is destroying our world, and truly is a sad state of affairs - but it could be rectified.

I was not speaking about you personally. I do not know you. I was speaking about the doctrines of spiritualism, mind and awareness based presumptions I see you promote.

Nonetheless I find it humorous that you ask for facts, but refuse to offer them in return.

But back to the topic of reincarnation, with all digressions to video games aside, what about reincarnation do you find appealing and convincing? And what compels you to refute the proof that we decompose after death?

I have one thing to say to this:

Reincarnation is a theory.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: bb23108
But back to the topic of reincarnation, with all digressions to video games aside, what about reincarnation do you find appealing and convincing? And what compels you to refute the proof that we decompose after death?

That the physical body decomposes after death is irrelevant to the issue and not in dispute or any sort of contention. Nobody here is disputing the fact that bodies decompose. It need not BE refuted and no one is doing any refuting. It doesn't have anything to do with the subject of this thread. The subject at hand is whether or not reincarnation is a blessing or a curse.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I was not speaking about you personally. I do not know you. I was speaking about the doctrines of spiritualism, mind and awareness based presumptions I see you promote.

If you read your accusation again, it certainly sounded personal.

I am always careful to point out that any kind of escapism from the body-mind away from the world is an error or a futile search, as we cannot exclude the world. The world arises in reality as much as any other object or experience does, so it should be embraced whole bodily - in a particpatory, connected, related manner, with real love - not as you suggested of what I said, "with contempt".

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
what about reincarnation do you find appealing and convincing?

I have had various experiences of prior lives. It is obvious to me from this, plus years of study, corroboration, and spiritual practice. I never assume anyone should accept anyone's word for it. Just be open to discovering what is true - or not, if that is your preference.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
And what compels you to refute the proof that we decompose after death?

Yes, of course, the physical body decomposes after death. But we are more than the physical body. This is self-evident to me, and also corroborated in great precision by many others. Again, personal experience, plus years of study and practice have shown me this.

It is completely obvious to me that Reality is a Unity that is prior to but not separate from everything that appears. Everything that appears is a modification of that same Unity or Reality. And yes, it is self-evident, as Unqualified Reality cannot be proven through any necessarily conditional means.

a reply to: schuyler

That the physical body decomposes after death is irrelevant to the issue and not in dispute or any sort of contention. Nobody here is disputing the fact that bodies decompose. It need not BE refuted and no one is doing any refuting. It doesn't have anything to do with the subject of this thread. The subject at hand is whether or not reincarnation is a blessing or a curse.

It does, because you have in your mind the idea that that body is not you. You've looked at yourself in the mirror, you have probably have seen pictures of yourself, and experienced everything you have as that very same being in that picture, yet you are assuming that isn't the case when you think of yourself being a corpse. How are you not that corpse? If that is you, reincarnation is neither a blessing nor a curse.

a reply to: bb23108

Yes, of course, the physical body decomposes after death. But we are more than the physical body. This is self-evident to me, and also corroborated in great precision by many others. Again, personal experience, plus years of study and practice have shown me this.

It is completely obvious to me that Reality is a Unity that is prior to but not separate from everything that appears. Everything that appears is a modification of that same Unity or Reality. And yes, it is self-evident, as Unqualified Reality cannot be proven through any necessarily conditional means.

You are not more than the physical body. This is self-evident to me and also corroborated by every valid method of inquiry humanity has to offer. For me, personal experience, plus years of study and practice has shown me this. Further, an infinite amount of empirical evidence to work with.

Now what do we do?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: bb23108
Now what do we do?

We stay on topic, which is not discussing whether or not reincarnation is true, but discussing the ramifications of it as if it were.

Once again: If you wish to discuss whether or not reincarnation is true, by all means avail yourself of the wonderful opportunity provided to you on ATS of starting your own thread and discussing it.

Continuing to derail this thread to suit your own purposes is the mark of a bully and should not be tolerated.

a reply to: schuyler

I believe in re incarnation and though this thread title is

"Re-incarnation: A Blessing or a Curse?"

Les Mis has every right to put forward his ideas regarding Re Incarnation and is on topic in that respect

There is no conclusive proof that Re Incarnation exists in Les Mis's mind and so he is attempting denying ignorance as he sees it

Whether he is correct or not does not matter but freedom to express one's ideas is more important than whether you believe them to be true or not

Also his view challenges and allows others to put forward their reasons for why Re Incarnation is real and how they know that to be so

a reply to: schuyler

a reply to: schuyler

We stay on topic, which is not discussing whether or not reincarnation is true, but discussing the ramifications of it as if it were.

Once again: If you wish to discuss whether or not reincarnation is true, by all means avail yourself of the wonderful opportunity provided to you on ATS of starting your own thread and discussing it.

Continuing to derail this thread to suit your own purposes is the mark of a bully and should not be tolerated.

Thank you sir for providing us all with a precedence to which we should all conduct ourselves here on ATS. I'll be sure to come to you when I require more information from the hall monitor. Duly noted.

Nonetheless, you are only speaking about the title of the thread. Have you even read the OP?

Without having to refer to video games for your answers, how is it that the fact you decompose after death not say anything about the topic at hand?

ATTENTION:

The topic is never each other and it's time for the tit for tat to stop.

Knock off the bickering and limit your posts to the topic "Re-incarnation: A Blessing or a Curse?". Anyone who wishes to discuss something else, please start another thread.

Do not reply to this post.

Blaine91555
Super Moderator

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
... how is it that the fact you decompose after death not say anything about the topic at hand?

The subject being reincarnation implies that the physical body has died, but the spirit or awareness or being moves on. This is a given relative to reincarnation - that the body dies is obvious and not the subject of this thread.

How can that not be obvious? If you don't believe in reincarnation, fair enough, but we ALL agree that the body does decompose. You gave your answer before, that a third category should be included, but the OP did not include that category.

It's fine with me that you stated your opinion, but what do you want now?

Rather, we want to move on, so I suggest we just do that.

Edit: Sorry, Moderator. I must have been writing this while you posted your response - I did not see it until now.

a reply to: bb23108

The title of thread could be said to be a pointed question

"Re-incarnation: A Blessing or a Curse?"

By which I mean it is exclusive of any who believe re incarnation does not exist

Rather like the question "Have you stopped beating your wife" in other words there is more than a Yes or No answer

As Blaine pointed ... "tit for tat" serves none and is plain childish ... just because someone does not agree with a view and wishes to put down the one who holds that view

As for the question ... "Re-incarnation: A Blessing or a Curse?"
My answer is it is neither of those though it may appear so to some

The reason for my saying this is ... I believe Re Incarnation is necessary to come to an understanding of those things / situations and people that we failed to learn in a previous life ... It is for one's own benefit to learn a few basic lessons in order for the soul to progress

Also I believe ... There are evolved souls who choose to incarnate in order to assist others less fortunate ...
In fact some are Humanity and some are Alien

What do you think