A Challenge to FreeMason

Freemason, or whatever alternative personality you are using, I, DragonRider, am officially challenging you to a direct, public, one to one debate in the debate forum.

This has been discussed at length with ATS staff, and has been agreed to across the board. I have even got them to agree to a few conditions on your behalf.

For this debate you get your original FreeMason personality back, although you can only use it in the debate forum.

This debate will be best of three, tournament style. You pick a topic, I pick and topic, and staff picks a topic, and decides who defends which side.

The stakes: If you win, you get FreeMason back, no questions asked. You get to stay at ATS. You get to post to your hearts content (although you still have to follow the rules). And you get the satisfaction of knowing you won against me, to get to stay.

If I win, you leave ATS FOREVER. No b*tching, no whining, no moaning. You and all your alter egos leave and never come back to ATS, you stay out of the lives of all the ATS members for eternity. No sneaking back under false names. You just leave, and dont let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

The best part is that the final decision comes NOT from ATS staff, mods, or admin. A secure poll is set up and ATS members vote. If you loose, you dont get to b*tch and whine that you were screwed over by William, ect, again. The people will have spoken.

So, do you think your massive, immense, powerful mind and intellect are up to the challenge?

Lets get it on.

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

Just to confirm... this is sanction by the forum staff.

Simon Gray is the fight promoter.

Thomas Crowne is handling security.

Netchicken is running the snack bar and T-Shirt sales.

Alien is in charge of the VIP suites.

And ZionMainframe is selling the pay-per-view licenses.

I love it
And can hardly wait
I bet on the Dragon
All wages taken

I'll accept however I think a few strict observances should be made.

Neither of us should use the words "you"...and we're both at fault of this many times.

Two, we need to state when we are using opinions of our own, however what should be allowed is stating what we've heard when we can't refere to it off hand however effort should be made by both parties to verify what has been heard.

Three, if I win, I must be exhonerated for the treatment that has been delt to me since about November.

Public apologies must be made to me by someone I don't care who, that Kano had wrongfully, publically humiliated me with his "moron award".

And that William failed as a Moderator to adress that issue.

I don't want however for William or whoever else to be "deprived" of anything else, just the apology and the acknowledgement.

Overall, I want it to be publically made known, that while I am generally abusive it is not in harmful intent, that while sometimes I speak out of my a$$ of some things, I speak great wisdom of others.

Currently everyone seems to just think I speak crap of all things.

This annoys me.

Now I think as long as we can keep a debate civil this will be fun.

However several other things.

We should make a note of NEVER targeting specific sentences or points in a post.

I generally do not post "points" the whole post explains one vast and often times confusing idea. And so I really hate it when for example: I say three things, one is more of an insite to a way I feel, and it is that ONE thing that is attacked the other points are forgotten and so what ends up is a battle of who looks best.

Not who is right.

So this could be fun.

However I don't trust the public is impartial enough to be good voters, some still seem to be "on my side" others seem to be totally against me where ever I stand.

But it's still a better chance than with William lol

I wouldn't mind however being given the topics, AND I feel ONE topic must at least be on Freemasonry.

Another should be third party chosen, and one should lie in an area better suited to you.

Is that fair? Or is the topics already planned? I don't really care.

Also I don't like "time limits" it's annoying when say I have been gone for 2 days and I get back and people are taunting saying "Oh you cant come back to that can you?"

Also this monday early morning I will be gone until the 2nd tuesday so there will have to be a recess for just over a week.

The parameters and conditions have been stated.

A yes or no will suffice.

I'll take one of those licences.

i'm going to go ahead and put the house on dragonrider. this should prove to be a truly enlightning experience, in a truly masonic fashion.

Originally posted by TheWanderer
I'll accept however I think a few strict observances should be made.

I can't belive this. You have more observances than my favorite, Moses, and all my previous wives lumped together
Your killing me, again, please do not embark on this useless quest, please retire humbulely to your corner

No, no parameters were stated, and all the conditions benefited just you.

I know when I'm walking into a set-up, and I don't doubt William so quickly approves, there's no way I can win when all the penalties are against me, and I get no benefits.

Even if I did win, all I am is some corner junkie whom everyone still thinks I'm just an arrogant bafoon.

That is not acceptable.

The apology must be given publically in a thread, by Simon on behalf of all the moderators.

Especially Kano.

The apology MUST state.

That I was right in the several things that I was called wrong in. Which led to my less than desirable behavior.

That William did not step up on my behalf or rather, between me and the other parties, nor did any other moderator, which he could have delegated it to. Which would have prevented such an escalation of events.

I don't want you responding to this Dragonrider you weren't there and know none of the history between me and William especially.

While I think William had a more malicious intent, it's unprovable and thus a moot point, however the fact remains that when I U2Ued william saying that there were people harrasing me in my several threads, he did nothing to prevent it.

Because of these things, I have for the WHOLE time I've been here since then, been the "butt" of many things.

I if I win shall be completely exhonorated of all these things, and gain the recognition I so richly deserve.

I will be perfectly willing to add to the apology thread in my name, a post of my own apologizing for the rash behavior of mine against all those others.

Lysergic
Levller,
yourself,
Abraham Virtue.

And so on, as long as they agree to accept me as a good poster whom while can be a bit aggressive and skeptical, does know what he's talking about.

Of course when I don't know what I'm talking about, I've been known to correct myself before, and before this whole debacle happend was once praised for such.

But then you don't remember that you were not here.

But I remember it well.

It was on a thread about WATER....and how "magical" ice is.

It was a question, WHY DOES ICE FLOAT?

And I being the impetuous youth I am, jumped at it to answer in ALL MY GLORY.

And said, "Ice floats because as it freezes it traps air and thus it is less dense, so it floats."

Right after posting that, I for some reason decided to check that, and found the answer to be wrong, finding it wrong I quickly reposted, not erasing the first to cover up my answer but rather said:

"I was wrong in my first answer, Ice floats because as the molecules crystalize they form a structure that is not as dense and therefore float, while it does trap air, it would float even if made in a vaccum."

For this I was then promptly praised...being able to correct myself when I find myself wrong.

Or when others provide the necissary information, showing that I was wrong.

However before your time Dragonrider, I presented a startling discovery using the mechanics of Babylonian number system.

I can see you saying "oh no here it comes" however this is the truth I found.

That when you take the number in the decimal system 666 and convert it to the number it would be in the sexigesimal system (or whatever the name is, base 60s), I found it came out to 11 6. Or Eleven six.

That is because 6 = 6, and 11*60 660. Thus forming 666.

Now I figured nothing about this matters, so out of curiousity I typed in "116."

Now if the number held no significance I'd get a LOT of crap hits.

But it did hold a VERY common significance.

It was the HEIGHT of the Christian persecution, and a very prominent bishop died. And this is one of the times figured to be when the Revelations was written.

I felt I stumbled upon something and quickly posted it. Now before this everyone did know I was an irrational person, I was pretty skeptical, and I was also pretty aggressive.

But no one really regarded me an idiot as you all now do.

However in came a long time user but very small poster, conveniently came in, at a time william was expressing a disdane for me.

Winston Smith.

Of course his calm "you're wrong, it's really this" attitude made me seem like I was indeed wrong.

And the fact that I had previously miscalculated it to be 111 didn't help. However I had before Winston came, corrected myself, as I always do.

And said, "I was wrong, it's not 111, it's 11.6 however 116AD is also a very important year in the history of the Church".

So when Winston said I was wrong, I knowing I wasn't, I refused his answer.

But he persisted in a calm manner, saying that I was wrong, again for the same reasons, which I had already disproven.

I disproved it about 10 times before finally snapping and the whole event led to me snapping at him, while he just calmly said "You're wrong".

So I went down in history as being someone who could never admit they were wrong.

Well psychologists and sociologists show that people who are "labelled" tend to form that label.

Someone called a "gangster" in his youth tends to mold into a gangster, the same with a problem child a "'n-word'" a whore what have you.

Now that doesn't mean calling someone gay will make them gay, but it means you will alter them in some way.

Labels are powerful things.

I who had until then ALWAYS admitted when he was wrong.

Was suddenly labled as a person who could never admit he was wrong. And then promptly banned, so as I could never refute that.

Since then many people who know this history have left.

A few who never liked me to begin with remain, so they don't help much.

So I demand, that my victory here be REPAID with formal recognition for the person I am.

I AM FreeMason.

I AM right when I am right.

And WRONG WHEN I AM WRONG.

And what happend to my 666 and the babylonian number system thread was an injustice to me.

And the moron award I received for ACCIDENTALLY stating that the speed of light was 186,000 miles per hour, SHALL BE PUBLICALLY APOLOGIZED FOR.

And THESE are the conditions.

If you were to be labeled and accepted as being a homosexual, then banned.

Would you not demand a small public recognition that that label was indeed false? (If it is I don't know your preference).

Well to me one thing more than anything else stabs me through the heart, and that is being seen as wrong when I am right.

I can not stand being disbelieved when no one provides evidence as to WHY they disbelieve me.

So I will only accept this "challenge" when you accept the fact that I shall be given these rights and public recognitions in my victory.

Like wise in my victory I will expect to be allowed to return, as Napoleon returned to France, as FreeMason.

To be recognized as being who I am.

And in accordance I will agree to the rules of the forums.

I will do my best to keep my passions in "due bounds" which is saying a lot because I'm a very passionate person.

And I will want not only public recognition of my "greatness" in my past, from Lysergic and Abraham Virtue and yourself.

But from everyone.

And finally, I would never expect to rest on my laurells and live off my past.

And so I would expect that everything be settled, in this public apology by Simon. And from there on and nothing before, will I be percieved by others.

And so if I should remain a "hot tempered" individual than I would expect to be treated as such.

I wouldn't expect people to say "*gasp* he's FreeMason..." I would expect them to go "arrg he's swearing at us."

Like wise if I am wrong, I would expect the proof set forth and I'd admit it.

If I did not admit I was wrong when the proof was given, that proof being agreed upon...then I would expect to be labeled one who can not admit he is wrong when he is.

I treat people by these standards and have NEVER been treated the same.

Dragonrider I recognize you are right when you are, and wrong when you aren't, and I recognize you are far better able to keep your temper than I.

However I have never been recognized right when I am, my name has always been shouted from the "roof tops" when it goes along with something I said that is wrong.

And I am often frowned upon, in fact the very name FreeMason is now synomynous with Hkot and Hammerite and some "multiple personality" that does not exist.

All my names have always been resemeblance of "Masonry" because I am FreeMason.

I sign my posts with "Sincerely, no signature".

And that is ME.

And I demand to be returned ME in a nice "cerimony" if you will, of a public Apology for the above greivances.

In fact though, I think being allowed to express these ideas here uncensored or denied is enough, but I will accept that as my "victory garner" as it is.

It would be nice to be able to post as "FreeMason", not the name but the person.

Recognized for who I am, not what WILLIAM labeled me as.

And William, I once hailed you as being a fair and wise ruler when I came back from that hell hole you once gave as an example as to why ATS is so great, @forumz.

And I now reconize I was wrong.

You are not "fair and wise" while you are intelligent, and usually unbiased.

When it comes to a few things you are horribly jealous and incapable of accepting other's views.

Brian is one such example, I on the other end of the spectrum, am another.

And while I'll never expect you to admit it, or agree with me or apologize.

That is the way I will feel about you always.

However even still I've always respected you, and always thought that if ever the tables should turn, and I be reinstated as the good person I was, I would never try and see to it that you were removed for the bad administrator I viewed you as.

I recognize that most the people wouldn't want to see you gone, I think most of them is out of ignorance, but I would regrett your abscence because I do fell that your hard and stern hand does in fact keep ATS the #1 conspiracy site in the world.

And prevents it from going down the holes into a place like @forumz.

So I do thank you for doing a good job, which I hope is enough for you, coming from me.

And lastly, if everyone's read this far, I should hope all the people who joined after I was banned, which is some near 600 of you...that you will better understand me.

Better understand where I come from.

And if possible always look to the past old posts, particularly mine, to better see why I feel so wronged.

Dragonrider, let's have some olde timely fun

Dude, talk is cheap, and you are long on talk...

Are we going to get it on or not?

I'm going to stand outside and sell dodgy un-official merchandise.

Here are the original debate rules.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If they have evolved after the two practice runs then the new rules should be stated clearly.

If we are going to do this,we should do it fairly,based on the quality of debate and not on popularity.
People should only be allowed to vote if they understand the concept of debate.It is not who anyone thinks is right but who puts their point across better.
A debater should be able to win if he is arguing that the Earth is flat if he does it well.

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by John bull 1]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out... don't forget to cite your sources gentlemen!

I just noticed in my post [####] which so conveniently shows just how "unbiased" the moderators are at times.

This censorship of B.rian's name is the same "unbiased and fair" treatment I have received.

While I don't know which moderator or if Simon thought this [####] was a good idea, it doesn't seem fair that someone who never posts here, and whom only Ycon actually really mentions.

Should be censored so badly, as to make the Patriot Act 2 look like a good deal.

Dragonrider I wouldn't give you the saticefaction of me whiping my bum with you, unless my grievances are PUBLICALLY recognized.

Because I have been horribly wronged here before and demand saticefaction.

It is a shame you are their pawn, William should fight his own battles.

However, if I were you I'd actually sift through my some 1500 odd posts and be afraid. Find the ones that I actually researched out like the ones against "Ma-ha-bone" and you shall see just how great and decent a poster I can be.

It is a shame you are their pawn, William should fight his own battles. Posted by Wonderer

Actually this little exercise is my personal brainchild.

I have been asking William for this way back around Hkot, and he kept blowing me off and just banning you.

I went so far as to suggest a looser leaves ATS permanently, but he didnt want to go that far.

As for whatever it is you are demanding, I have no control over that.

I just want to get it on.

"The Die is Cast"

Let the games begin

Dragonrider I am GLAD to see you're not their "pawn", it just seemed very reasonable that William would have better urged it however! I don't doubt William loves the demands I have to agree to.

However if you want to get it on, how about this.

We start it now, tomorrow whatever.

Because I think we'll find it very refreshing and fun to have an actual educated debate, where we could stop, take time and find resources, without buttheads interjecting with "DAMN THOSE SATANISTS" or whatever, derailing the thread.

I think we won't need any conditions after a few days of that, because we'd actually like debating.

Because in a civilized environment neither of us are fools and we both know that so it should be quite interesting.

If you want me to agree to never return should I lose (which I don't know if I can agree to that since I have the power to come at will), then William must agree to my terms if I win.

However I don't think we'd really care, because I think this seems like a great idea, and already I feel better on this thread than I have in a long time just with the mere idea of it.

Gaining not just some recognition but a chance to show that I'm not some hard headed blunderbutt that I seem to be.

But I can see you're eger so let's "get it on".

Someone show me where the forum is at lol, someone show me what the topic is.

It is my understanding that William will have a debate thread in the debate forum set up sometime tomorrow. It will be locked so that only you and I can post in it. He will also set up the poll for ATS to decide the winner.

My only condition is that if you loose, you leave. That is actually my condition, not Williams, as he sees fit to simply ban you whenever you show up.

You will have to discuss your conditions with William and the rest of the admin staff.

There's no discussion, I've shouted my praise enough here I think, hopefully plenty recognize that I was the one wronged, not the one wronging.

And it's a shame you are the one who wants me to "leave" lol

But I think you'll find you'll want me to stay after this. It should be very refreshing for the both of us.

If not, then educational because nothing teaches you better than having to debate something you know little about lol

Originally posted by TheWanderer
I just noticed in my post [####] which so conveniently shows just how "unbiased" the moderators are at times.

This censorship of B.rian's name is the same "unbiased and fair" treatment I have received.

While I don't know which moderator or if Simon thought this [####] was a good idea, it doesn't seem fair that someone who never posts here, and whom only Ycon actually really mentions.

Should be censored so badly, as to make the Patriot Act 2 look like a good deal.

No, Freemason, this is an unjustice to all. No words should ever be banned. This isn't Turkey. Or is it???